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Proof Turin Shroud is Real

Discussion in 'Historical Jesus' started by Guide To The Bible, Jan 29, 2017.

  1. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    That is really interesting 'Dr Strange and Dr Stone investigate a strange stone' :) God's sort of sense of humour.

    I believe it is true but the stone is not one of two that 'sit' on the shoulders, it is the middle stone on the bottom row on the Breast plate:

    Exodus 28
    20the fourth row shall be topaz, onyx and jasper.b Mount them in gold filigree settings. 21There are to be twelve stones, one for each of the names of the sons of Israel, each engraved like a seal with the name of one of the twelve tribes.

    It dates from the time of solomon's temple being built 1000BC. The engraving may have been made by God however, although yes there is always the possibility that there was some kind of technology they had to do it?

    I wonder where the others are? I will keep my eye out for them at the next car boot sale. Perhaps the Rothschild's will give me a few quid for one of them?
     
  2. Ken Behrens

    Ken Behrens Well-Known Member

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    Dr. (Steven) Strange is also a comic book hero, who saves innocent victims by sorcery. That's even stranger.

    I am not at all certain that the urim and thummim were not onyx also. The already referenced traditions state that the engraving was made by the shamir. The Jews argue the technology from some point of Hebrew verb usage I do not quite understand.

    I wish we had more we could prove about these things. I have quite a few legends, enough to suspect that there is some likelihood they could be true. In such a case, I must consider that the shroud could have been prepared using such things, if someone had a motive.
     
  3. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    There's no motive why anyone would create the shroud? as far as I can tell.

    As far as my research has uncovered I believe there was a pouch concealed behind the High Priests breast plate which he wore over his chest. He would draw out either one of the Urim or Thummim stones that were kept in this pouch. One stone had written on it ‘Blessing’ the other had ‘Curse’ written on it and it was use for drawing lots, such as selecting the scapegoat on the day of atonement. I think one stone was black while the other was white.
     
  4. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am a physicist.

    You are right in what you say about plasma but I think you missed the point...
    For sure, plasma is stripping of electrons
    But the light you see is not the process of electrons leaving, but the result of electrons dropping back into orbitals, releasing the energy that it cost to strip them, and the energy is released as light photons. In a laser this is a very controlled process to a couple of electron states.
    As you see the colours in plasma vary because many electron states are involved electrons stripping and returning. But the "damaging" wavelengths - that is the ones that are capable of oxidising the cellulose fibres, are the highest energy which is UV, which is still what discolours the cloth. Or so Fanti said in one of the slides.

    So to that extent what was shown by UV laser as a mechanism for discolouration, is the same mechanism of discolouration as in corona discharge, but the corona discharge hypothesis explains the distribution of the image, not just the chemical process occurring in the surface of the fibre which is all the UV laser hints at.

    For sure, high energy electron beams also interact with matter directly.
    And I suspect we still have a lot more to learn about the shroud.

    But the pseudoscientists who conjecture a mediaeval forgery, will be finding it increasingly untenable to believe it was forged, since the only science that has produced a similar mark cannot be explained naturally.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2017
  5. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    Thank you for explaining that, I think I understand it too. Not to go off topic but I happened to be watching a documentary just last night which explained that glass is clear because the energy levels of the electrons in orbit around the nucleus' have larger orbits (higher energy levels) than the energy levels of the photons of light hitting the glass and therefore the photos can't hit the electrons because the energy levels of the photons and electrons have to match in order for them to bounce back off the atoms of glass, so instead the photons just pass through the 'voids' of the atoms (I think that's what they said)?

    So the corona discharge went in all directions from each atom of Jesus' dead body as he resurrected? Which produced the 3D image? Is that right?
     
  6. Ken Behrens

    Ken Behrens Well-Known Member

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    Please read Josephus or the Dead Sea scrolls. both of them agree that the urim and thummim were something like thought readers, and disagree with what you have read. Archeologically, the Dead Sea scrolls trumps any modern commentary.

    The motive could have been to prevent destruction of a church by the attacking Roman Catholic armies of the early 400's. Such an artifact would "prove" apostolic origination, and save hundreds of people with unapproved thoelogy.
     
  7. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    Perhaps, but I can't believe that the image could have been produced without a source of plasma energy.

    Do you have a link to Josephus and the DSS where they mention the urim & thummim?
     
  8. Ken Behrens

    Ken Behrens Well-Known Member

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    Josephus Antiquities 3.8.9 Josephus: Antiquities of the Jews, Book III
    1Q29, 4Q376 The Dead Sea Scrolls: Tongues of Fire (I can understand if you don't trust this website, as it is non-Christian. I have the DSS study guide, and can make you a screen shot if you cannot find the original elsewhere, so that you can see the translation is accurate.) Commentary here: The Urim and the Thummim

    I cannot prove the nature of the energy source, but the most ancient documents suggest that lightning was stored and released to charge the clouds to make rain.
     
  9. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    Thank you, that was most fascinating. The stone of the tribe of Benjamin had the Letters B (benjamin) and K (wolf). If each stone had 2 letter that's 24 letters in all and the ancient Hebrew alphabet had 23 letters (22 in the modern);
    Hebrew Alphabet Chart

    The 12 tribes were:

    Genesis 49
    3Reuben, you are my firstborn, my might, the first sign of my strength, excelling in honor, excelling in power. 4Turbulent as the waters, you will no longer excel, for you went up onto your father’s bed, onto my couch and defiled it.
    5Simeon and Levi are brothers— their swordsa are weapons of violence. 6Let me not enter their council, let me not join their assembly, for they have killed men in their anger and hamstrung oxen as they pleased. 7Cursed be their anger, so fierce, and their fury, so cruel! I will scatter them in Jacob and disperse them in Israel.
    8Judah,b your brothers will praise you; your hand will be on the neck of your enemies; your father’s sons will bow down to you. 9You are a lion’s cub, Judah; you return from the prey, my son. Like a lion he crouches and lies down, like a lioness—who dares to rouse him? 10The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,c until he to whom it belongsd shall come and the obedience of the nations shall be his. 11He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes. 12His eyes will be darker than wine, his teeth whiter than milk.e
    13Zebulun will live by the sea shore and become a haven for ships; his border will extend toward Sidon.
    14Issachar is a rawbonedf donkey lying down among the sheep pens.g 15When he sees how good is his resting place and how pleasant is his land, he will bend his shoulder to the burden and submit to forced labor.
    16Danh will provide justice for his people as one of the tribes of Israel. 17Dan will be a snake by the roadside, a viper along the path, that bites the horse’s heels so that its rider tumbles backward. 18“I look for your deliverance, Lord.
    19Gadi will be attacked by a band of raiders, but he will attack them at their heels.
    20Asher’s food will be rich; he will provide delicacies fit for a king.
    21Naphtali is a doe set free that bears beautiful fawns.j
    22Joseph is a fruitful vine, a fruitful vine near a spring, whose branches climb over a wall.k
    23With bitterness archers attacked him; they shot at him with hostility. 24But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayedl limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel, 25because of your father’s God, who helps you, because of the Almighty,m who blesses you with blessings of the skies above, blessings of the deep springs below, blessings of the breast and womb. 26Your father’s blessings are greater than the blessings of the ancient mountains, thann the bounty of the age-old hills. Let all these rest on the head of Joseph, on the brow of the prince amongo his brothers.
    27Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; in the morning he devours the prey, in the evening he divides the plunder.”

    Levi and josheph did not inherit a portion of land instead that went to Joseph's sons and Levites lived in the whole land as priests. therefore:
    1. Tribe of Reuben - R
    2. Tribe of Simeon - S
    3. Tribe of Manasah - M
    4. Tribe of Judah - J L (lion?)
    5. Tribe of Issachar - I
    6. Tribe of Zebulun - Z
    7. Tribe of Dan - D
    8. Tribe of Naphtali - N
    9. Tribe of Gad - G
    10. Tribe of Asher - A
    11. Tribe of Ephriham - E
    12. Tribe of Benjamin -B K (wolf)
    The letter left over are C F H L N O P Q T

    Therefore God could have been able to shine each stone or perhaps letter to communicate anything.

    Any idea's about this?

    Also Josephus said:

    And the High Priest Caiaphas’s most remarkable prophecy, John 11:47–52. as two small remains or specimens of this ancient Oracle; which properly belonged to the Jewish High Priests.

    I wonder if one of these remains was that very stone just found and also where the other is now?
     
  10. Ken Behrens

    Ken Behrens Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I can find it again, but another article had a close up picture. When traced carefully, I think 21 of the letters can be in some way gotten from the engraving on it. You know, like a digital clock only has 8's on it, but by not lighting up each part of the 8, we can make it show all the numbers.

    No one knows where it was found. It has been bouncing around bazaars, etc. for at least 800 years, according to what I remember reading. If not for the engraving, it would likely be pronounced a fake. But it cannot be fake since our technology cannot duplicate the result. That last statement sounds just like the shroud of Turin, doesn't it?
     
  11. Guide To The Bible

    Guide To The Bible Guide To The Bible

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    Was this another stone beside the Benjamin wolf stone?
     
  12. Ken Behrens

    Ken Behrens Well-Known Member

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    No, same stone. Different article with a better picture.
     
  13. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

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    BTW for shroud watchers.

    I just today - got my copy of
    "test the shroud at atomic and molecular levels" by Antonacci
    Not released in the UK for a couple of months yet so had to import it from US.
    Looks interesting! yet to read it.
     
  14. stevevw

    stevevw inquisitive

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    Very interesting video. I watched another one that came up after it which went into how the image could have been made on the cloth. They have shown that it could not have been a painting as that would have soaked into the cloth. The image is only on the surface. The tests show that it is possible the image caused by UVB light which when radiated can cause a photo negative image. An interesting point is made that DNA can produce a UVB image. The presenter says that UVB light has millions of fine point contacts with the cloth which pick out individual strands of the cloth and line up over those many points on the shroud. The different depth the body has in contact with the cloth will produce a lighter and darker image. This is strong evidence that the shroud is genuine at least as far as it coming from a body.

    I was able to get the gist of what he was saying and have a basic understanding of the physics involved. It seems the way light works as photons produce a wave pattern and this can create a holographic image on the surface when radiated. This is very fascinating as to the way light works and how light is the source of producing what we see at the quantum level. In my view I can relate this to how light is often referred to in the Bible as not only a source of seeing in dark places but as a source of creation and seeing the truth.

    John 8:12
    12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”


    Revelation 21:23
    23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  15. charity1

    charity1 Member

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    I have an image of the Shroud and gazing it does me a lot of good.. I just "know" it is Jesus. I will finish reading your post. Thanks
     
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