Proof-Texting- To Use or Not to Use

[Chickapee]

1) Without a context, anything is meaningless. Or severely limited in its meaning, vague.
2) The use of prooftexts often seems to me to be almost treating the Bible like a series of magical formulae. It's almost pagan in its veneration of the text.
3) I'm not even sure that the term "universal truth" has any meaning to the Biblical writers, who mainly deal in specific situations: they tell stories set in the real world even when, as in the parables or certain books like Job, they were using fictional devices.
4) In quoting a passage, many Christians assume that the story is already known by the reader/listener so that they'll immediately "get it." But even a lot of Christians are not always aware of the full context, and many non-Christians nowadays don't ever pick up a Bible. So don't assume that one Bible verse is somehow going to clinch an arguement, rather than make someone puzzled.
5) Try and read a whole book of the Bible rather than just a few verses. There's usually an argument or the thread of a story that unfolds over the reading of it (St Paul's epistles, for instance, are essentially arguments.) Verses quoted out of context mean you miss the argument, and you can end up down some very strange alleys.

Where in all this Artybloke do you think the Holy Spirit comes in ?

or when Jesus Words become Truth ? thanks and God bless C ...

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost/Spirit , whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

 

[artybloke]

Where does the Holy Spirit come in? Why, through the whole process of thinking and reasoning about the scriptures. Where else?

The Holy Spirit tends to work through fallible human beings, who sometimes get things wrong or mistake the Holy Spirit for their own enthusiasm. Very rarely, if at all, through wham bam thank you ma'am "revelations".

 

[Chickapee]

Where does the Holy Spirit come in? Why, through the whole process of thinking and reasoning about the scriptures. Where else?

The Holy Spirit tends to work through fallible human beings, who sometimes get things wrong or mistake the Holy Spirit for their own enthusiasm. Very rarely, if at all, through wham bam thank you ma'am "revelations".

Thanks Artybloke ,
I agree the Wisdom of God and not the wisdom of men ,

and the promise that God will give if you ask Him for this

Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

and revelations/mysteries revealed , like the kind Paul recives numerous amounts of ,
as well as a thorn in the flesh , to keep him from being exalted above measure

peace God bless C

 

[TimRout]

I looked on the web and found an example and study of what your saying TimRout here ........


Kenosis - Christ "emptied Himself" (Philippians 2:7)

as i briefly went though it , i wondered , if we see this so literal we are so limited [bound ]
but Spiritually speaking we can go far beyond the letter that kills
I know the Spirit makes alive we can only see what Gods Light [knowledge] sheds abroad upon our hearts to see though and Jesus Christ is the Way to Life ........

unless the single eye of [perciving ] be dakness /knowledge

Matt6 ;22"(AB)The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light.
23"But if (AC)your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light/ knowledge that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! there is many a warning of perverting/Twisting

the Truth like a serpent

peace C

Seriously...are you a Gnostic? :o

 

[icy_crusader]

Hi Icy Crusader ,

Here Jesus done it quoting Isaiah,weaving/tie together in the prophecy ,knowing from John in Rev the testimony /witness of Jesus Christ IS The Spirit of Prophecy
seeing this is done to show us the usage of events and when its applied

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted/turned , and I should heal them.

than went on to explain


I have noticed that Paul does this often too, just quoting a couple of scriptures and than goes on to explain them with more enlightenment /understanding revealing many mysteries
such as Union of man /woman and Christ /Church etc .

and to actually understand what context means i had to look it up and it helps to know clearly what it means ,and see it as helpful
context - Definitions from Dictionary.com

I think the difference is Interpreting
the tying them /connecting in the same purpose =make Strait strait - Definitions from Dictionary.com , strict meaning

verses twisting them to make it say what ever they want it to say crooked for gain if it be for profit ,greedy gain Paul spoke of men stealing and I believe this is what he was talking about here as far a religion goes ...
Deu 24:7 If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.


1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

making them slaves to their teaching

God bless C

Thank you for pointing these out, but I am aware of the instances in which previous scripture is quoted. I never disagreed or said quoting scripture is wrong, just that I'm wary of it. I want to be sure I am using it in context and for it's intended purpose so that later on I don't regret informing a friend incorrectly on matters of the Bible. The overabundance of Bible verses today is what scares me. The way people paste them on every item you can find in a Christian bookstore, or randomly in the middle of a book, or just quoted for the purpose of edification. I believe it endorses the idea that our beliefs are based on singular verses. But, once again, thank you for those verses. I actually used them for my personal morning devotional

 

[Chickapee]

Seriously...are you a Gnostic? :o

No, TimRout im not anything ? No labels , or groups , cults etc . Just Jesus Christ and His Word , whom I love
I was just looking into your point and found that site in particular
that seems to be where you have also gathered your info maybe ? I dont know but , I dont agree with everything this guy says , thats for certain I am sorry ,It seems you have totally misunderstood me
God bless C

 

[Chickapee]

Thank you for pointing these out, but I am aware of the instances in which previous scripture is quoted. I never disagreed or said quoting scripture is wrong, just that I'm wary of it. I want to be sure I am using it in context and for it's intended purpose so that later on I don't regret informing a friend incorrectly on matters of the Bible. The overabundance of Bible verses today is what scares me. The way people paste them on every item you can find in a Christian bookstore, or randomly in the middle of a book, or just quoted for the purpose of edification. I believe it endorses the idea that our beliefs are based on singular verses. But, once again, thank you for those verses. I actually used them for my personal morning devotional

Hi Icy crusader ,

I tend to agree , the overuse or misuse of Bible verses

and the intent of the heart more so , in using them can always

be abused , I love how John puts it ,being carful of how we handle His Word

Its how we handle the Word of Life 1Jo 1:1 - 8

he was turned over to the hands of sinners , seeing this as signifigant of the Cross of Christ to me and

that aproves us or disproves us as a witness to the Glory of God ,
I love how you are careful and I am also feeling the same way

Peace and God bless C

 

[artybloke]

Thanks Artybloke ,
I agree the Wisdom of God and not the wisdom of men ,

It's not so either/or. The Holy Spirit is as capable of using "human wisdom" to the glory of Christ, as of imparting some special "wisdom." In fact, I'm very suspicious of people who claim to have some special "wisdom" or some new way of reading the Bible that bypasses the rational processes. That doesn't mean that new insight can't be found as we find out more about the context of the text and our own contexts; but it isn't separate from the normal thinking processes. After all, God did give us a mind to think with.

And the thing, by the way, about the OT quotes in the NT: they were in some sense reading into the text things that were not there in the original. But there is usually a history of interpretation from the Jewish tradition behind them. Thus, with the messianic "prophecies": they were not originally intended to prophesy Christ, because it would have been meaningless to the original audience, and as the prophets were proclaiming the message of God's justice on Isreal, it would have been pointless. However, once the original context was no longer relevant, they would still have a meaning, and this became focused narrower and narrower: a prophecy originally intended for the whole nation of Isreal became focused on the "remnant" after the Exile, and then onto the figure of the Messiah, and then by Christians (but not by Jews generally) it became focused on Christ.

It wasn't, in other words, some magical process. It was the inevitable process of making the prophets relevant to the present. It's no different from what happens when people reinterpret Shakespeare for the present age.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

It's not so either/or. The Holy Spirit is as capable of using "human wisdom" to the glory of Christ, as of imparting some special "wisdom." In fact, I'm very suspicious of people who claim to have some special "wisdom" or some new way of reading the Bible that bypasses the rational processes. That doesn't mean that new insight can't be found as we find out more about the context of the text and our own contexts; but it isn't separate from the normal thinking processes. After all, God did give us a mind to think with.

And the thing, by the way, about the OT quotes in the NT: they were in some sense reading into the text things that were not there in the original. But there is usually a history of interpretation from the Jewish tradition behind them. Thus, with the messianic "prophecies": they were not originally intended to prophesy Christ, because it would have been meaningless to the original audience, and as the prophets were proclaiming the message of God's justice on Isreal, it would have been pointless. However, once the original context was no longer relevant, they would still have a meaning, and this became focused narrower and narrower: a prophecy originally intended for the whole nation of Isreal became focused on the "remnant" after the Exile, and then onto the figure of the Messiah, and then by Christians (but not by Jews generally) it became focused on Christ.

It wasn't, in other words, some magical process. It was the inevitable process of making the prophets relevant to the present. It's no different from what happens when people reinterpret Shakespeare for the present age.

That may well be. But one thing I'm sure of: even though the human authors and their contemporary audiences may not have understood them that way, their Inspirer did.

 

[Chickapee]

It's not so either/or. The Holy Spirit is as capable of using "human wisdom" to the glory of Christ, as of imparting some special "wisdom." In fact, I'm very suspicious of people who claim to have some special "wisdom" or some new way of reading the Bible that bypasses the rational processes. That doesn't mean that new insight can't be found as we find out more about the context of the text and our own contexts; but it isn't separate from the normal thinking processes. After all, God did give us a mind to think with.

And the thing, by the way, about the OT quotes in the NT: they were in some sense reading into the text things that were not there in the original. But there is usually a history of interpretation from the Jewish tradition behind them. Thus, with the messianic "prophecies": they were not originally intended to prophesy Christ, because it would have been meaningless to the original audience, and as the prophets were proclaiming the message of God's justice on Isreal, it would have been pointless. However, once the original context was no longer relevant, they would still have a meaning, and this became focused narrower and narrower: a prophecy originally intended for the whole nation of Isreal became focused on the "remnant" after the Exile, and then onto the figure of the Messiah, and then by Christians (but not by Jews generally) it became focused on Christ.

It wasn't, in other words, some magical process. It was the inevitable process of making the prophets relevant to the present. It's no different from what happens when people reinterpret Shakespeare for the present age.

Thank you for the explanation Artybloke ,

you are allowed your reasons and thinking

and i was just going by the scriptures and how many times they speak against this type of reasoning /mindset


we know the natural /carnal mind is an emity against the Spirit of God it is written ,

we must put on the mind of Christ /humble obedient to Gods will

and we know from the scriptures that this wisdom /mans is below the
standards and love not God first and the brothers , but is divisive strife and argument

empty and Vain as well .. just blowing air/breath in the wind ,

to me it does not glorify God nor Christ but our own egos


But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
Jam 3:15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but [is] earthly, sensual, devilish.


and Paul said he as well didnt use them words of mens wisdom

but by the Power of God , this is where I have gathered my thoughts and posts from

to God be the power and glory bro
peace and God bless C

1Cr 2:4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom,

but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

 

[oldsage]

unless the single eye of [perciving ] be dakness /knowledge

Matt6 ;22"(AB)The eye is the lamp of the body; so then if your eye is clear, your whole body will be full of light.
23"But if (AC)your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light/ knowledge that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! there is many a warning of perverting/Twisting

Actually this passage has to do with greed and generosity and the timeless truth of it should deal with that topic.

Blessings,
Chris

 

[Chickapee]

Actually this passage has to do with greed and generosity and the timeless truth of it should deal with that topic.

Blessings,
Chris

well thank you Chris !
your right , but what is the true treasure bro ? verses greed ?

is it the knowledge of God ?the true treasures that no one steals from you

here in context
matt 6 ;19"(Y)Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth,

where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.

20"But store up for yourselves (Z)treasures in heaven,

where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;


21for (AA)where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


22"(AB)The eye is the lamp of the body;

so then if your eye is clear,

your whole body will be full of light.


23"But if (AC)your eye is bad,

your whole body will be full of darkness.

If then the light that is in you is darkness,

how great is the darkness!

24"(AD)No one can serve two masters;

for either he will hate the one and love the other,

or he will be devoted to one and despise the other

You cannot serve God and [a](AE)wealth.

thanks for the correction in context ....but seeing it as Knowldge to do good or evil ...peace God bless C

 

[artybloke]

and i was just going by the scriptures and how many times they speak against this type of reasoning /mindset

But they don't. None of them. They don't argue against the use of the mind; or of reasoning. They do argue against false reasoning - and there's as much of that among Christians as there is any where else (witness the number of liars and deluded fools among the creationists, the millenialists & chiliasts of the modern church & the preachers of the prosperity gospel.)

"Come let us reason together..." is not an excuse to put your mind in neutral and follow whatever spiritual-sounding nonsense comes out of the mouth of your favourite preacher, who can rip a few verses out of context and turn them into mincemeat to feed to his deluded congregation.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

But they don't. None of them. They don't argue against the use of the mind; or of reasoning. They do argue against false reasoning - and there's as much of that among Christians as there is any where else (witness the number of liars and deluded fools among the creationists, the millenialists & chiliasts of the modern church & the preachers of the prosperity gospel.)

"Come let us reason together..." is not an excuse to put your mind in neutral and follow whatever spiritual-sounding nonsense comes out of the mouth of your favourite preacher, who can rip a few verses out of context and turn them into mincemeat to feed to his deluded congregation.

But there is also a place for personal or private revelation. As a Pentecostal, I believe the gifts of the Spirit are still active. But I do want to make sure I'm not deceived, that any revelation I'm given really does come from God, so I believe in testing it against scripture, tradition, reason and experience, as in the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. That might not sound very Pentecostal, but my Assemblies of God church does come from Methodist roots.

 

[Chickapee]

But they don't. None of them. They don't argue against the use of the mind; or of reasoning. They do argue against false reasoning - and there's as much of that among Christians as there is any where else (witness the number of liars and deluded fools among the creationists, the millenialists & chiliasts of the modern church & the preachers of the prosperity gospel.)

"Come let us reason together..." is not an excuse to put your mind in neutral and follow whatever spiritual-sounding nonsense comes out of the mouth of your favourite preacher, who can rip a few verses out of context and turn them into mincemeat to feed to his deluded congregation.

Dear Art ,
what do you think being doubleminded is ?
and the carnal / fleshy mind is Death
the mind of Christ is Life ..

many scriptures speak of this vanity of mens thinking MANY
and they are vain empty /prideful

1Cr 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise,

that they are vain.

Jer 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness,

that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

please read James 4 in its entirety....
Jam 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.

Cleanse [your] hands, [ye] sinners;

and purify [your] hearts, [ye] double minded.

what do you think Jesus was saying when he told Peter rebuking / refute/strike/convict him

openly as Peter was rebuking/ refute /strike /convict the Lord ?


get behind me satan ,

your not Mindful /regard[ but offensive ]of the things of God

but the things that be of men
Peters thinking was adversarial being

double minded in judgment and opinion

you also realize that Peter was given the gift of Grace of faith

by the Father in heaven to believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God before this rebuking /example
and had not thought of this on his own , right ?

the natural reasoning of mankind is Vain/empty /comes to nothing ,

the being born again mind/heart is a new creature in Christ and

the Mind of Christ is Head and rule of authority

I am sharing this for help/edification , not for argument Art
I am not desiring to be stubborn with you and will just drop this
If you are feeling attacked
Gods will be done
and may God bless you always in Him C

 

[artybloke]

A very good example of being "double-minded" would be the refusal to live in the real world of the average creationist. It takes a great deal of cognitive dissonance to believe that god created the world in six days 6000 years ago when the whole of God's revelation of Himself through the earth shows it to have been created 4.5 billion years ago.

That is a very good example of "vain thinking."

 

[Chickapee]

A very good example of being "double-minded" would be the refusal to live in the real world of the average creationist. It takes a great deal of cognitive dissonance to believe that god created the world in six days 6000 years ago when the whole of God's revelation of Himself through the earth shows it to have been created 4.5 billion years ago.

That is a very good example of "vain thinking."

Yeppers it sure is Arty,

sort of in the foolish questions catagory to me

Now who thinks like this ????

Them things to me are what the Bible warns us

of not to get into

Tts 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law;

for they are unprofitable and vain.

A man that is an heretick after

the first and second admonition reject;

Knowing that he that is such is subverted,

and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

subverted Gr 1612
ekstrephō
1) to turn or twist out, tear up
2) to turn inside out, invert
3) to change for the worse, pervert, corrupt

sad well God bless ....... C