Proof God created evil

Anguspure · Jan 2, 2017

YouAreAwesome said:
Please either find the mistake in this logic, or find the false premise:

1. God created free agents
2. Free agents have the potential to do evil, e
3. Potential has a non-zero probability, p, where 0<p<1
4. Therefore, over infinite time, the probability of a free agent to perform evil approaches 1 [Let t represent time, then P(e)=1-(p')^t, ∴ P(e)=1 as t→∞]
5. Therefore God created free agents knowing they would create evil
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless
7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

SOLVED: FAULT FOUND IN PREMISE #4
As a free agent develops in their relationship with God, they are less likely to do evil. The probability of doing evil is then a decreasing exponential function approaching zero. For example, we might arbitrarily choose p=e^-t as t→∞ and t>0 (e=natural log, not to be confused with e=evil).

The equation when taking the complement of p is then:

P(e)=1-(1-e^-t)^t as t→∞ and t>0

And this approaches 0, not 1.

I see your reasoning and probably agree.
But, if I may offer a very delayed response (perhaps it has already been mentioned).

I think there is perhaps a simpler solution in seeing evil as being the absence of God as reflected by John when he writes:
In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1)

Absolute evil is the darkness of death. Anything that proclaims itself as on the side of evil and yet lives is simply sponging off the good grace of God.

So in the sense that God does not fill all creation with His immediate presence then He has allowed evil to persist in the name of freedom and Love; that all of creation will choose whether it wishes to orientate itself towards or away from the light.

As you say, as one develops in relationship to God (approaches the light), they are less likely to do evil.

Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. (John 3)

YouAreAwesome · Jan 2, 2017

Anguspure said:
I see your reasoning and probably agree.
But, if I may offer a very delayed response (perhaps it has already been mentioned).

I think there is perhaps a simpler solution in seeing evil as being the absence of God as reflected by John when he writes:
In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1)

Absolute evil is the darkness of death. Anything that proclaims itself as on the side of evil and yet lives is simply sponging off the good grace of God.

So in the sense that God does not fill all creation with His immediate presence then He has allowed evil to persist in the name of freedom and Love; that all of creation will choose whether it wishes to orientate itself towards or away from the light.

As you say, as one develops in relationship to God (approaches the light), they are less likely to do evil.

Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. (John 3)

Cheers for the reply. Which premise are you challenging? If you are challenging the notion of "creating evil" it could be reworded, such as "rejected good", and the logic would remain, yes?

YouAreAwesome · Jan 2, 2017

GoldenKingGaze said:
Could God create free willing angels and in such a way that none of them would ever fall?

Alvin Platinga argues no, it is logically impossible. I disagree. He not only can, He did. Every free creature has the potential to never fall. And I don't believe every free creature has fallen (what I mean is, I believe there are currently creatures in heaven that are free and who have not fallen).

GoldenKingGaze said:
Did God choose a lot, that would have the minimal fall and best dealings with, in the firmity of Michael, Gabriel and Raphael...?

I don't understand you, what are you asking?

GoldenKingGaze said:
Did God through a process of anticipation of free willing events, determine what evil would be?

No.

GoldenKingGaze said:
When the holy angels fell others resisted, so resistance was possible, but did God have a purpose for evil?

God did not purpose evil but He can bring good from it.

GoldenKingGaze said:
Is Satan the fullness of evil, and only just, instead of a greater evil God imagined and in anticipation of, decided not to create?

I don't understand what you are asking. Satan is not the fullness of evil but he is only evil with no good in him any more.

GoldenKingGaze said:
I think evil was designed in this way to be minimal and dealt with finally and once and for all. So that we could have an everlasting salvation. And so we would make minimal losses. And so we could earn gains.

I disagree.

Anguspure · Jan 2, 2017

YouAreAwesome said:
Cheers for the reply. Which premise are you challenging? If you are challenging the notion of "creating evil" it could be reworded, such as "rejected good", and the logic would remain, yes?
6. It was impossible for free agents to remain sinless

I don't like premise 6. It seems contradictatory to suggest that it is impossible for a free agent to choose.

This, I guess, moves the argument into considering the nature of Gods knowledge, which I think is along the lines of Molinism.

7. Therefore God is 100% responsible for evil
8. Therefore God created evil

Premise 7 is also problematic.

As I noted previously: in the sense that God does not fill all creation with His immediate presence then He has allowed evil to persist. So I concede that God has something to do with it.

In the sense that God has created the universe as being distinct from Himself, He has permitted parts of that creation to exist further from His immediate presence than others. But this is permitted in acquiescence to the wishes of His created free agents, not because of any creative act of will on His part.

In this sense evil is permitted because of freedom, and God did know that this would happen, but the responsibility for the decision to reject good lies with the free agent.

So in the end I reject premise 8 as well.

GoldenKingGaze · Jan 2, 2017

YouAreAwesome said:
Alvin Platinga argues no, it is logically impossible. I disagree. He not only can, He did. Every free creature has the potential to never fall. And I don't believe every free creature has fallen (what I mean is, I believe there are currently creatures in heaven that are free and who have not fallen).

I don't understand you, what are you asking?

No.

God did not purpose evil but He can bring good from it.

I don't understand what you are asking. Satan is not the fullness of evil but he is only evil with no good in him any more.

I disagree.

I meant that all angels could, by choice not fall, but could God have made a set of angels, all of them in such a way, that despite free will, that none would ever choose sin and fall.

About the second part of your response, could God have known that free will would would always mean some angels would fall into sin, and God being infinite could see an infinite number of sets of angels, that means the whole sum of the body of holy angels and an infinite number of bodies like a form of school boys in tenth grade, but year after year, many forms. and God choose a set in which evil was complete so as never to reform a new attack, and to be finally overcome with minimal losses of angels and people.

So the set in which Lucifer falls with one third of the holy angels into unholiness and Michael, Gabriel and Raphael stay upright and dominate, with two thirds of the obedient angels is best.

So I think God could determine in this way what evil would be. Evil was not His choice.

I agree God didn't create evil, but could bring good from it.

I think Satan is the fullness of evil in that, for example, no new evil will be invented by another fall to tempt the established saints, or angels or young souls. So Jesus death on the cross is a final victory over all evil.

So by Jesus it is finished with, and we can earn great rewards and inherit, each one of us, Jesus' blood.

Anguspure · Jan 2, 2017

YouAreAwesome said:
Alvin Platinga argues no, it is logically impossible. I disagree. He not only can, He did. Every free creature has the potential to never fall. And I don't believe every free creature has fallen (what I mean is, I believe there are currently creatures in heaven that are free and who have not fallen).

I agree with you here.

God did not purpose evil but He can bring good from it.

...and again...

I don't understand what you are asking. Satan is not the fullness of evil but he is only evil with no good in him any more.

I would go further and say that in so far as satan remains alive he is a bludger on the creation of the Father. That he doesn't qualify even as the fullness of evil because in fact as long as the light of life remains in him there is indeed the goodness of God and his continued life is evidence of it. Where can we flee from His presence?, indeed.

YouAreAwesome · Jan 2, 2017

Anguspure said:
I don't like premise 6. It seems contradictatory to suggest that it is impossible for a free agent to choose.

Cool. Some posters helped find premise 4 incorrect, and then premises 5-8 are all potentially wrong in my opinion. I completely agree with you that free agents have the potential to never sin even over an infinite time.

YouAreAwesome · Jan 2, 2017

GoldenKingGaze said:
I meant that all angels could, by choice not fall, but could God have made a set of angels, all of them in such a way, that despite free will, that none would ever choose sin and fall.

Alvin Platinga and Molinism would say it is logically impossible. I believe God doesn't know what we will choose and so it is possible that the angels would not sin (I take an Open Theism line of thought on these things).

GoldenKingGaze said:
About the second part of your response, could God have known that free will would would always mean some angels would fall into sin, and God being infinite could see an infinite number of sets of angels, that means the whole sum of the body of holy angels and an infinite number of bodies like a form of school boys in tenth grade, but year after year, many forms. and God choose a set in which evil was complete so as never to reform a new attack, and to be finally overcome with minimal losses of angels and people.

This sounds pretty similar to the Free Will Defence which is somewhat accepted among philosophers but I don't like it personally. I think it is a reasonable way of solving the problem but it places full responsibility for evil on God and it argues that this is the best possible world. I think the world could be better, how about you?

GoldenKingGaze said:
I think Satan is the fullness of evil in that, for example, no new evil will be invented by another fall to tempt the established saints, or angels or young souls. So Jesus death on the cross is a final victory over all evil.

So by Jesus it is finished with, and we can earn great rewards and inherit, each one of us, Jesus' blood.

Sounds fair enough. However, I don't think I will ever believe that there is something more valuable because of sin than there would have been if we had never sinned. Jesus' blood is a beautiful display of love, but I believe His love could have been fully known even without sin; otherwise evil and sin are actually goods; and it leads to thinking that maybe there are other evils that could be done to establish a better good.

GoldenKingGaze · Jan 3, 2017

YouAreAwesome said:
Alvin Platinga and Molinism would say it is logically impossible. I believe God doesn't know what we will choose and so it is possible that the angels would not sin (I take an Open Theism line of thought on these things).

This sounds pretty similar to the Free Will Defence which is somewhat accepted among philosophers but I don't like it personally. I think it is a reasonable way of solving the problem but it places full responsibility for evil on God and it argues that this is the best possible world. I think the world could be better, how about you?

Sounds fair enough. However, I don't think I will ever believe that there is something more valuable because of sin than there would have been if we had never sinned. Jesus' blood is a beautiful display of love, but I believe His love could have been fully known even without sin; otherwise evil and sin are actually goods; and it leads to thinking that maybe there are other evils that could be done to establish a better good.

We have blood and we have the blood of Jesus, the Lamb of God to fill our hearts and not to just know about it.

Scripture says, God knows the end from the beginning. And Jesus is the author or father of eternity.

Sir Robbins · Feb 10, 2017

God created Satan. That is likely the simplest answer I can give

John 1720 · Feb 10, 2017

Sir Robbins said:
God created Satan. That is likely the simplest answer I can give

Yes, but satan wasn't created corrupt to begin with but freely chose to become corrupt and rebel against God. It is moving in the opposite direction from God that makes one evil. One might say then freedom can cause evil but it is a two edged sword because freedom is integral to love as well - and love is a good.

Huckfinn151 · Feb 10, 2017

God said "I create light and I create darkness; I create peace and I create evil; I the Lord do all these things."

rockytopva · Feb 10, 2017

Lets remember that in the whole scenario of things... God is Good! ....

Good and upright is the Lord: therefore will he teach sinners in the way. - Psalm 25:8
O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. - Psalm 34:8
O give thanks unto the Lord, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. - Psalm 107:1

Good parents also discipline and chastise their children that their ends may end in good.

John 1720 · Feb 11, 2017

Huckfinn151 said:
God said "I create light and I create darkness; I create peace and I create evil; I the Lord do all these things."

Yes the KJV gives that wording and is out of context with just about every other version of the Bible out there.

Logical Argument said:
God did not create evil, He created beings with free will that can move towards His Goodness and Love or depart from Him moving away from His Goodness and Love, which causes actions that are evil. (.e.g. a man straps on a suicide vest walks into a nursery and kills men. women and children in the name of God is someone who knows nothing about God, nor the people God created that the perpetrator enacted for the sole reason of creating terror. Even so, despite the perp's choice to go against everything God teaches us, didn't God create that individual with the ability to seek God and His goodness? The same is true of satan, the author of evil and rebellion against our Holy God.

Here are the versions for the verse by which you infer God created evil.

Isaiah 45:7 Versions said:
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
New American Standard Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things."
International Standard Version
"I form light and create darkness, I make goodness and create disaster. I am the LORD, who does all these things.
NET Bible
I am the one who forms light and creates darkness; the one who brings about peace and creates calamity. I am the LORD, who accomplishes all these things.
New Heart English Bible
I form the light, and create darkness. I make peace, and create calamity. I am the LORD, who does all these things.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
I make light and create darkness. I make blessings and create disasters. I, the LORD, do all these things.

Evil comes from not walking with God, which is walking according to our own desires (the foundation of evil is rebellion towards God.

3 John 1:11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. He who does good is of God, but he who does evil has not seen God.
James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

Since God is "always" good, turning to God is good. We learn that evil, in itself, is nothing more than a departure from God. Evil, like the beast "was" but "is not", in the final summation. Yes, evil was allowed during the time given to man because there was choosing. When the choosing out has been accomplished evil will cease to exist.

WAS said:
The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within. And they do not rest day or night, saying: “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!” - Rev 4:8
“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
- Rev 17:8

So, in time we have two choice of vectors set before us. We can move in repentance towards God or we can choose to move away from Him. Therein lies the difference between good and evil. It happens also to be the difference between life and death; for God is our life and without God there is only death. God offers us free choice with respect to direction and does not coerce us or make the choice for us, although He does implore us.

“Come now, and let us reason together, says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, us reason together, they shall be white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

THE CHOICE OF TURNING TO GOD OR DEPARTING FROM HIM HAS BEEN SET BEFORE US said:
Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil
Jeremiah 21:18
“Now you shall say to this people, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Behold, I set before you the way of life and the way of death.
Deuteronomy 30:19 “I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
Hebrews 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

However, if we move in unbelief, departing away from God, humanity can only do evil and without God we die. Remember God has told us death is the enemy of God and has been singled out for destruction.

1 Corinthians 15:25-26 For He (Christ) must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

God is our life, our breath, in Him we live and without Him we die. In God we move and He enables us to His handiwork by His Spirit. Doing His Good will is always good.

Acts 17:24-30 said:
God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said,
‘For we are also His offspring.’ herefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

In Christ, Pat

YouAreAwesome · Feb 11, 2017

Sir Robbins said:
God created Satan. That is likely the simplest answer I can give

God created Satan to do evil? Or he created him not knowing he would do evil and was surprised?

YouAreAwesome · Feb 11, 2017

Huckfinn151 said:
God said "I create light and I create darkness; I create peace and I create evil; I the Lord do all these things."

If you read back through the posts in the thread you'll notice a discussion on this verse and the correct translation: "I create peace and I create war".

YouAreAwesome · Feb 11, 2017

rockytopva said:
Lets remember that in the whole scenario of things... God is Good! ....

Good and upright is the Lord: therefore will he teach sinners in the way. - Psalm 25:8
O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. - Psalm 34:8
O give thanks unto the Lord, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. - Psalm 107:1

Good parents also discipline and chastise their children that their ends may end in good.

Yes but within reason. No one would kill their children to discipline them. No one would give them cancer. No one would torture them slowly until they die alone with no positive outcome or consequence whatsoever.

YouAreAwesome · Feb 11, 2017

John 1720 said:
evil, in itself, is nothing more than a departure from God.

I think this is naive to the reality of humanity. Not every "non-christian" is "evil". How do you define "evil" to keep this statement you've written true? I know many "non-christians" who are less evil (in the obvious sense of lying, cheating, stealing, hating, judging, condemning etc) than some "christians" I know. How do you get around this?

GoldenKingGaze · Feb 11, 2017

Thinking God is mighty and evil would make a person terrified of Him. But reverence is fear of His goodness as well as His might.

RDKirk · Feb 11, 2017

YouAreAwesome said:
God created Satan to do evil? Or he created him not knowing he would do evil and was surprised?

Are you satisfied to put all your hope and trust into a God who can be caught by surprise and have His plans upended by one of His own creations?

Proof God created evil

Did God create evil?

Yes

No

No, but He knew evil would be created by free agents when He created them

I don't know

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