Promise of a Gentile Messiah

[Gxg (G²)]

Have you ever wondered why Yeshua said;

Matthew 24:1Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down."
​

And why he was teaching that something greater than the temple 'was here'?

Matthew 12:6I tell you, something greater than the temple is here.

​

And why he would teach these things if his whole intent was to re-establish it? I keep hearing how if we don't follow 'the law' we are least in the kingdom, yet it seems it was Yeshua himself who taught that the very means by which were given to observe 'the law' were going to be torn down. And that his presence indicated something 'greater' than the temple with it's laws. Basically, why would Messiah re-establish something that he taught would be torn down and made inoperable? See, i'm having a hard time understanding how people, mainly Gentiles, justify railing against those who don't observe 'the law' claiming it makes them least in the kingdom when Messiah taught that the whole ministry and process of the Temple kingdom was going to be torn down? And we can't say that this wan't the intent or did not happen. Cause it plainly did. No sooner did Messiah teach these things then they happend. To this day.... Yet I'm supposed to believe that Messiah's message was to re-establish in perfection that which he laid out before, even though he taught it was going to be torn down? And that there was something greater?

IMO, it is those who teach something that Messiah never did who are not even IN the kingdom whatsoever. But that's my opinion, no?

I don't believe the law is done away with, I believe the scriptures that say it's been re-WRITTEN upon our hearts. Not re-ESTABLISHED as it was in days of OLD. It is something new that has sprung forth from the fountains of God. It's as if Israel has been born from the dead! To NEWNESS of life! Being married as a virgin to Him who has betrothed her. Even though she sinned, it was forgiven and he made her clean, by the giving of the Word. She who died has been made alive, forevermore. And the nations are blessed because of it. If you believe that is.

Well said....

 

[dfw69]

My point exactly, they don't know.


So please, produce said laws.


Give us a list of dos and don't and where you derive such a list.



You have to start from the beginning, sexual immorality is a good enough start.


So exactly what are your rules, and where did they come from?


Is it ok for a son to sleep with his mother when both of them desire it?

Is fornication ok now?

Is murder ok now?

Is adultery ok now?


According to you, it is.



Once you throw out the old law and claim a new one, where is it?


What are you going to say to the mother and son who have sexual relations who are a member of your church?


How can you possibly even open your eyes at them?

You can't, it is now up for them to make their own rules, just as anyone can make up their own rules, and have, and are today.

Lawlessness abounds BECAUSE Christianity has done away with it, and nobody has a plumbline.



If it's good for you, it's good enough for a child molester, your opinion is no more valid than his.


We see this every single day, preachers and whole congregations calling what was unrighteous, righteous.

How were they able to take something immoral and make it moral?


Simple, because Christianity has no laws, they are lawless, admittedly lawless at that.


You have no foundation on which to stand after you have done away with the word of God.



Is it ok for a man and a woman to live together in fornication?



I would place a huge bet that you don't think anything is wrong with it, but if you even did, you wouldn't be able to tell them a thing, because you yourself are lawless, and free to do whatever your imagination desires.



People have always found a way to make their misdeeds righteous.



If they want fornication to be ok, its ok, if they want homosexuality to be righteous, '' Behold, such a righteous and sweet thing it is now.''

And not by the heathen, by Christians who have no law.



If you want to live like a king and be rich, there is millions of people out there who will follow you and produce scriptures that supposedly make you a king deserving the wealth of the world.






I always knew that the unbelievers would find a way to turn their misdeeds to righteousness, I just never expected the whole Christian community to help them, and agree with them.


But we are informed of lawlessness.

Do you really want me to produce a list of new testament commands to obey to prove we are not without laws?

Ok

Off the top of my head ...

Judge not
Condemn not
Love all men
Do to others as you would be done unto you
Forgive trespasses 70x7
Obey parents
Wives submit to your husband's
Husbands love you wives
Resist the wiles of the devil
Flee youthful lust
Flee fornication
Confess to one another sins
Love you enemies
Resist evil
Mortify the deeds of the flesh..adultery sedition sexual imotality whoremongler abuse of mankind..ect
Bless them that persecute you
Pray for them that use and abuse you
Give to everyone that ask
And ask for it not back
Turn the other cheek
If anyone ask you to walk a mile walk two
Do not hate
Pray that you may be able to escape
When you pray ...Pray our father who live in heaven..ect...
Bear fruit...Love joy peace longsuffering forbearance ect
Put on the armour of God
Be fruitful
Have mercy
Do not avenge ..Vengeance is hashems
Resist the wiles of the devil
Baptize in the name of yahshua
Make disciples
Go into all the world preach the good news
Obey yahshua
Put on his yoke
Learn of yahshua
Carry one another's burdens
Hope for all things
Believe the gospel
Keep the commandments of yahshua
Keep the faith
Love not the world
Love hashem

Is this enough to prove we are not lawless ?or do you want all laws that exist in New covenant?

There are many many more laws we are called obey ...

 

[dfw69]

Have you ever wondered why Yeshua said;

Matthew 24:1Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down."
​

And why he was teaching that something greater than the temple 'was here'?

Matthew 12:6I tell you, something greater than the temple is here.

​

And why he would teach these things if his whole intent was to re-establish it? I keep hearing how if we don't follow 'the law' we are least in the kingdom, yet it seems it was Yeshua himself who taught that the very means by which were given to observe 'the law' were going to be torn down. And that his presence indicated something 'greater' than the temple with it's laws. Basically, why would Messiah re-establish something that he taught would be torn down and made inoperable? See, i'm having a hard time understanding how people, mainly Gentiles, justify railing against those who don't observe 'the law' claiming it makes them least in the kingdom when Messiah taught that the whole ministry and process of the Temple kingdom was going to be torn down? And we can't say that this wan't the intent or did not happen. Cause it plainly did. No sooner did Messiah teach these things then they happend. To this day.... Yet I'm supposed to believe that Messiah's message was to re-establish in perfection that which he laid out before, even though he taught it was going to be torn down? And that there was something greater?

IMO, it is those who teach something that Messiah never did who are not even IN the kingdom whatsoever. But that's my opinion, no?

I don't believe the law is done away with, I believe the scriptures that say it's been re-WRITTEN upon our hearts. Not re-ESTABLISHED as it was in days of OLD. It is something new that has sprung forth from the fountains of God. It's as if Israel has been born from the dead! To NEWNESS of life! Being married as a virgin to Him who has betrothed her. Even though she sinned, it was forgiven and he made her clean, by the giving of the Word. She who died has been made alive, forevermore. And the nations are blessed because of it. If you believe that is.

I'm not sure that I understand your reasoning here

I do believe that the law of Moses is not abolished (yet)

Technically the law will judge sinners

But I believe yahshua fulfilled the law for his people and setting them free from bondage...

People who sinned against the law owed a debt....a lamb was killed instead to pay the debt to the law....

In yahushua the law is paid for ...a man no longer has to remain a servant to the law and is able to remarry...to chose another master ...Jews are free to make a new covenant with yahshua and are set free from moses..

As far as I know ...gentile s were never under the old covenant.....yet yahshua offered his new covenant to us ....we are free to serve him ...not bound by any covenant ...

We were loammi and we became his people ...not by Moses ...but by yahshua

Forgive my ignorance..I'm a simple man

 

[Shimshon]

I'm not sure that I understand your reasoning here

I do believe that the law of Moses is not abolished (yet)

Technically the law will judge sinners

But I believe yahshua fulfilled the law for his people and setting them free from bondage...

The law judges those who seek to be made righteous through observing the law. It also only applies to those who the law was given. Or do gentiles need to remember how they were redeemed out of Egypt? Obviously not, because God redeemed the nation of Israel OUT OF the nation Egypt (which represents all the nations of the world). We are commanded never to forget how God redeemed us from Egypt. Was this command given to ....the Canannites as well?

The law given Moses will be used to judge those who seek to be made righteous by following it. And of course not one soul will be saved by doing so. This law is not used to judge the nations, as it was never given to them to be 'under'. It will only judge those who seek to be 'under' it. And all those will perish, having not the 'faith' that produces 'life'.

The nations who were never given it will not be judged by it, but by Yeshua himself, whom they reject. The rest who believe, Jew or Gentile will never be judged because they have already been accounted as righteous by God because of the faith we placed in the Words of God about Messiah Yeshua, AND is proved by the way we 'love' another 'in Messiah'. And proved by the supernatual Spirit that dwells within us in power. (healing, prophesies, teachings.....)

People who sinned against the law owed a debt....a lamb was killed instead to pay the debt to the law....

In yahushua the law is paid for ...a man no longer has to remain a servant to the law and is able to remarry...to chose another master ...Jews are free to make a new covenant with yahshua and are set free from moses..

As far as I know ...gentile s were never under the old covenant.....yet yahshua offered his new covenant to us ....we are free to serve him ...not bound by any covenant ...

We were loammi and we became his people ...not by Moses ...but by yahshua

Forgive my ignorance..I'm a simple man

A simple man is a blessing and honor to engage with. No forgivness is needed. I can appreciate what you have just said.

 

[dfw69]

The law judges those who seek to be made righteous through observing the law. It also only applies to those who the law was given. Or do gentiles need to remember how they were redeemed out of Egypt? Obviously not, because God redeemed the nation of Israel OUT OF the nation Egypt (which represents all the nations of the world). We are commanded never to forget how God redeemed us from Egypt. Was this command given to ....the Canannites as well?

The law given Moses will be used to judge those who seek to be made righteous by following it. And of course not one soul will be saved by doing so. This law is not used to judge the nations, as it was never given to them to be 'under'. It will only judge those who seek to be 'under' it. And all those will perish, having not the 'faith' that produces 'life'.

The nations who were never given it will not be judged by it, but by Yeshua himself, whom they reject. The rest who believe, Jew or Gentile will never be judged because they have already been accounted as righteous by God because of the faith we placed in the Words of God about Messiah Yeshua, AND is proved by the way we 'love' another 'in Messiah'. And proved by the supernatual Spirit that dwells within us in power. (healing, prophesies, teachings.....,

I believe what you have said....I just done see the how one can follow Moses and yahshua at the same time

Unless one keeps the laws in thier hearts without condemning as the law of Moses requires....but I define that as disobeying Moses law....

Idk

A simple man is a blessing and honor to engage with. No forgivness is needed. I can appreciate what you have just said.

 

[Shimshon]

I believe what you have said....I just done see the how one can follow Moses and yahshua at the same time

Unless one keeps the laws in thier hearts without condemning as the law of Moses requires....but I define that as disobeying Moses law....

Idk

Here is a simple question to ponder in relation to this. Let me qualify it first. I can assume we believe 'Israel exists today', both believeing and non-believing, no? The people of Israel live. That said; is Israel currently in exile? Or has God restored her to her land, both bones AND Spirit?

In exile, how can Israel 'observe' the law? Is she eventually forgiven her iniquities because she is in exile? Or is she accountable to ALL the Torah, even though God exiled her? Is that a fair condtion to be placed in? God gives a law that is inextricably tied to the land in which he gave them. Now God exiles his children from the land, because they did not obey his covenant. BUT, God is still requiring the law from them? He wants them to go up 3 times a year to a place that God himself banished/exiled them from? Really? OR, did he overlook the sins at that time, forgiving them?

Psalm 25:7
Remember not the sins of my youth or my transgressions; according to your steadfast love remember me, for the sake of your goodness, O LORD!

Isaiah 43:25
"I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.

Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

Hebrews 10:17
then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."

18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

​

We follow Moses because Moses followed Yeshua, God our Savior. He spoke of him, taught of him, and was careful to lay out everything according to the pattern God shown him, because it patterned the LIVING temple in heaven. When we follow Yeshua, we follow the pattern God set out and laid out with Moses. We fulfill the law. Patterning what God gave Moses, LIVING what Yeshua gave us. Moses is 'within' Yeshua. Yeshua is not 'within' Moses. Moses leads to Yeshua, Yeshua does not lead to Moses.

 

[dfw69]

Here is a simple question to ponder in relation to this. Let me qualify it first. I can assume we believe 'Israel exists today', both believeing and non-believing, no? The people of Israel live. That said; is Israel currently in exile? Or has God restored her to her land, both bones AND Spirit? ,

Yes the whole house of Jacob (Israel) exist ...exile?.....I believe some have not yet return to the land of Israel but choose to remain where they are until messiah comes who will gather the nation from the four corners of the earth....yes ..the door is open to return to the homeland..and a gov reside there for jews...is that gov of hashem?.....idk....

If you are referring to a scripture when you say bone and spirit....in which I think you are referring to the prophecy of when God made a field of dry bones and put flesh and life and made an army....that is not fulfilled imo

In exile, how can Israel 'observe' the law? Is she eventually forgiven her iniquities because she is in exile? Or is she accountable to ALL the Torah, even though God exiled her? Is that a fair condtion to be placed in? God gives a law that is inextricably tied to the land in which he gave them. Now God exiles his children from the land, because they did not obey his covenant. BUT, God is still requiring the law from them? He wants them to go up 3 times a year to a place that God himself banished/exiled them from? Really? OR, did he overlook the sins at that time, forgiving them?

Psalm 25:7
Remember not the sins of my youth or my transgressions; according to your steadfast love remember me, for the sake of your goodness, O LORD!

Isaiah 43:25
"I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.

Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

Hebrews 10:17
then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."

18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

​

We follow Moses because Moses followed Yeshua, God our Savior. He spoke of him, taught of him, and was careful to lay out everything according to the pattern God shown him, because it patterned the LIVING temple in heaven. When we follow Yeshua, we follow the pattern God set out and laid out with Moses. We fulfill the law. Patterning what God gave Moses, LIVING what Yeshua gave us. Moses is 'within' Yeshua. Yeshua is not 'within' Moses. Moses leads to Yeshua, Yeshua does not lead to Moses.

Amen...but now when messiah returns then he will institute Torah again and the Jews will observe Moses ?

 

[Shimshon]

Amen...but now when messiah returns then he will institute Torah again and the Jews will observe Moses ?

I have to think of it like this. If Moses was given a pattern that 'copied and shadowed' the heavenly things, why would we only retain the pattern of the copies and shadows when the heavenly things have been manifest in the world?

Hebrews 8
1 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain." 6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
​

See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown....

BUT as it is, Messiah has obtained a ministry that is ...more excellent, and is enacted on 'better' promises.

This tells me that what Yeshua enactced was NOT the copies and shadows but the ACTUAL heavenly presence of what was previously only patterned in copies and shadows. The LIGHT has come into the world. How can we live as though we were in darkness? If the veil has been lifted, by the husband, what right does the wife have to recover herself as if the husband had no right to view her face to face?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

The law judges those who seek to be made righteous through observing the law. It also only applies to those who the law was given. Or do gentiles need to remember how they were redeemed out of Egypt? Obviously not, because God redeemed the nation of Israel OUT OF the nation Egypt (which represents all the nations of the world). We are commanded never to forget how God redeemed us from Egypt. Was this command given to ....the Canannites as well?

Gentiles are also called out of Egypt, and also called to keep the Passover in truth and in spirit, they are also called to keep the feast of Tabernacles because they not only go through Passover just like Jews, they go through the wandering.

That's why the whole world is demanded to keep the feast of Tabernacles.


But Gentiles are asked to do what the high priest would tell them, and the high priest wouldn't tell them anything.

The point is the unity.



The point was to bring a unity to all men, and this unity can not be maintained by teaching a gentile that the ways of God should not be followed.

If anything, a gentile should simply remain loyal to Jews and watch as they continue keeping their culture.


But this can't be done by separating the two, and showing a great divide between the two.




I wouldn't tell the gentiles to keep all the little laws of Moses, I would tell him to learn them.


And it is a given that a gentile cannot bring his Pagan holy days and traditions to be about Christ.

I don't keep the law, but I don't add to it either.


But at some point, when you teach one thing for Jews, and one thing for gentiles, it tends to separate and divide the two.

 

[HannibalFlavius]

I have to think of it like this. If Moses was given a pattern that 'copied and shadowed' the heavenly things, why would we only retain the pattern of the copies and shadows when the heavenly things have been manifest in the world?

Hebrews 8
1 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain." 6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
​

See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown....

BUT as it is, Messiah has obtained a ministry that is ...more excellent, and is enacted on 'better' promises.

This tells me that what Yeshua enactced was NOT the copies and shadows but the ACTUAL heavenly presence of what was previously only patterned in copies and shadows. The LIGHT has come into the world. How can we live as though we were in darkness? If the veil has been lifted, by the husband, what right does the wife have to recover herself as if the husband had no right to view her face to face?

That copy, that shadow which is the kingdom of heaven is now our body.

We are the temple and the design shows what we are, and we should know the comings and goings of our own temple.

 

[Laureate]

Hello laureate it is believed by us gentile Christians that yahshua fulfilled the law for us....yahshua in the flesh obtained the righteousness of serving the law of Moses"

"...it is believed by us Gentile Christians that..."

The vast majority of Us Messianics are people who have been weaned from the Christian denominations so we are pretty fluent in the Milk taught by them;

"...yahshua fulfilled the law for us..."

If he fulfilled the law, then the New Covenant is in effect, Where (mind you) there is neither Jew nor Gentile;

Therefore if you believe this, then why would you refer to yourself (or any believer for that matter) as a Gentile?

Y'shua was a True Law abiding citizen, as opposed to Sinners who fell short of just that 'abiding by the Law';

His fulfilling the Law is his measuring up to the Law; yet I am always puzzled when I hear someone say 'He fulfilled the Law' by the very same people who say that, 'Y'shua is our example to follow';

And in this context I agree with your words "...He fulfilled it For Us...", but as an example to follow;

But that's not the part that gets me, it is, 'the concept of the Eternal Law of Elohym being done away with because somebody was obedient to it for thirty three years', that is what astounds me!

So when I go to court for stealing something today, all I have to do is tell him, But your Honor, I already obeyed the Law yesterday! So today I should be free from it's jurisdiction.

Then there are those who say, 'No, no, He Fulfilled the Law' as if He had performed every scriptural promise, yet the Swords still have not beaten into plow shares etc.,

The prophecies of Revelation all echo the Tanach, furthermore the scriptures report that the End is revealed at the Beginning-Genesis-Torah;

And the creme de le creme, Heaven & Earth are still Here, to show our entire existence still relies upon every jot of the word therein;

Y'shua concluded that the Gist of the Law is Love, and He Fulfilled this Law of Love when He willingly allowed them to place Him on a pole;

I believe His fulfilling of-Obedience to the Law (further) Qualified Him to die for our sake, for His presence marked the Great and dreadful day of YHWH;

If he would have not chosen to die on that pole then only a remnant would have been spared with Him from another Global disaster;

I say 'further' qualified Him, because He professed to be 'The Son of Adam' (which is Mankind itself);

Since the flood of Noah's day Adam has had Only One of his Begotten Sons remaining alive on Earth;

We are literally the Many Members of the body of Seth (the third Son of Adam), who is (definitively) the Express image of Elohym, this is what qualified Him to die For all of Us;

To call it the Law of Moshe, as opposed to the Law of YHWH is to say Moshe did not sit in the seat of Elohym, and that the Law was not of YHWH, THAT is typical of the Spirit of Anti Christ, the word does have a definition besides opinion and misuse:

"...yahshua in the flesh obtained the righteousness of serving the law of Moses"

The word Righteousness means Justification, and Y'shua defined it as "our abiliity to assign an appropriate reason...";

Thus to say, Y'shua "...obtained the righteousness of serving the law ..." is the same as saying, he obtained an appropriate reason for subjugating himself, and bowing down to the Law;

"He then gives his righteousness to his followers who serve the spiritual law...he completed the law and builds his house the sons of Joseph . ..we gentile s are adopted into his house"

The Spirit of the Law is the Truth of the Law, the Law is a public declaration that pertains to the Will, and Righteousness of The Kingdom;

Therefore it is a parable, with two literal meanings that are figurative to one another, on one side is a natural phenomema, and on the other side a spiritual truth;

The natural phemomena is considered Milk for Carnal beings to grow by, and the Spiritual is considered Meat for those who are Mature enough to digest-handle the truth;

"...he completed the law..." Y'shua is the Word of Elohym, therefore he is the Law Completely from The Beginning to the End, and to say be Completed it is to say He Perfected it, but then what? Throw it out?

"Because the law condemned yahshua it cannot condemn his house ...it already condemned him...thus setting us free...it condemned our father once and for all sin...there is no need of a sacrifice anymore....the debts towards Moses law is paid for by the blood of hashem lamb once and forever"

"Because the law condemned yahshua it cannot condemn his house ...it already condemned him...thus setting us free..."

The (written) Law never condemned Y'shua, it was those who were in the position to uphold the (written) Law who condemned Y'shua based on their poor interpretation of the Law;

Those who followed the poor example of the priesthood have been liberated from their poor interpretations of the Law, yet Y'shua says do as they say;

"They" being those who quote and record the Law, as Moshe:

"So we obtain righteousness and are free from serving the law of Moses."

Where in the world did you find this verse??? Shame on you!

"Yahshua house is greater than Moses house ....Moses is a servant yahshua is a son ...and we are the sons of promise"

You are gravely mistaken, Moshe stood in the stead of Elohym who is servant to all, and though the Son is the Son he Also came to serve;

But if you believe his report, and receive him (The Word) in your heart, then you are also a Son, yet here you are working in His vineyard:

 

[Laureate]

We who have and Love His Name The Word of Eloheym have not One, but Two Faithful Wittnesses, and though they be One, they are the Scriptures written within our heart, and the Word of Elohym hanging on a tree, for the books we read are made of...? And what believer never referred to the book as The Word of Elohym? Yet Y'shua, he is The Word of Elohym:

Those who are Established in their Faith have Two reliable Witnesses, Not One!

 

[Laureate]

I have to think of it like this. If Moses was given a pattern that 'copied and shadowed' the heavenly things, why would we only retain the pattern of the copies and shadows when the heavenly things have been manifest in the world?

Hebrews 8
1 Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 a minister in the holy places, in the true tent that the Lord set up, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; thus it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer. 4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law. 5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things. For when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown you on the mountain." 6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
​

See that you make everything according to the pattern that was shown....

BUT as it is, Messiah has obtained a ministry that is ...more excellent, and is enacted on 'better' promises.

This tells me that what Yeshua enactced was NOT the copies and shadows but the ACTUAL heavenly presence of what was previously only patterned in copies and shadows. The LIGHT has come into the world. How can we live as though we were in darkness? If the veil has been lifted, by the husband, what right does the wife have to recover herself as if the husband had no right to view her face to face?

Very, very beautiful, it is so beautiful that one might even say, That was beautiful, and now that I think about I must say, It is Beautiful, besides that it is also Beautiful, and Heaven forbid I leave out the Fact that It is Beautiful!

I especially Love the part about a Superior Ministry, and how that is the Only thing that was, and is yet changing!

 

[Laureate]

Yet as it pertains to a Nation of Priests, what, were they Commissioned to minister, and mediate unto themself? A Mediator mediates between Two parties, Israel was chosen to be Elohym('s) Mediator to Reconcile the rest of the World-Kingdom unto (hEllo) Him!

According to the Song attributed to Moshe, YHWH distributed the descendants of Adam-Mankind, according to the tribes of Israel, thus one is a template of the other, one is a Microcosm, and the other a Macrocosm, thus what is true for the one, is also (@ some point n time) true for the other:

 

[Shimshon]

Very, very beautiful, it is so beautiful that one might even say, That was beautiful, and now that I think about I must say, It is Beautiful, besides that it is also Beautiful, and Heaven forbid I leave out the Fact that It is Beautiful!

I especially Love the part about a Superior Ministry, and how that is the Only thing that was, and is yet changing!

Praise Messiah!

 

[Laureate]

Now that the house is built according to plan, let's abolish the Blue prints? Does that sound wise? It is more likely, that we would have no need of the Blueprints in the event the house itself is to be Abolished!

And though there be a (re-) New (-ed) Heaven & Earth, the Concept Of Heaven & Earth will be Older than it ever was; when the scriptures read "...in this world, and the world to come" alone shows, that the Scriptures apply in both worlds:

O.k, o.k., Now I gotta go read what G wrote...

 

[dfw69]

Hello laureate it is believed by us gentile Christians that yahshua fulfilled the law for us....yahshua in the flesh obtained the righteousness of serving the law of Moses"

"...it is believed by us Gentile Christians that..."

The vast majority of Us Messianics are people who have been weaned from the Christian denominations so we are pretty fluent in the Milk taught by them;

"...yahshua fulfilled the law for us..."

If he fulfilled the law, then the New Covenant is in effect, Where (mind you) there is neither Jew nor Gentile;

Therefore if you believe this, then why would you refer to yourself (or any believer for that matter) as a Gentile?

Because technically I am a gentile...I am not born a Jew ....but yes in the body of Christ we are one nation ..I am a gentile believer who one day will live in new Jerusalem with all nations who has believed in his words obey his laws and believe in his name

Y'shua was a True Law abiding citizen, as opposed to Sinners who fell short of just that 'abiding by the Law';

His fulfilling the Law is his measuring up to the Law; yet I am always puzzled when I hear someone say 'He fulfilled the Law' by the very same people who say that, 'Y'shua is our example to follow';

And in this context I agree with your words "...He fulfilled it For Us...", but as an example to follow;

I do not believe that yahshua wants his believers to follow the law of Moses ...which is a covenant given for the Jews ..I believe yahshua offers us gentiles and Jews a new covenant...a covenant without the law of Moses ...it is not our duty to fulfill the requirements of Torah of Moses....it is messiah duty to complete the Torah of Moses ...we are to observe messiah laws till he returns... ....we must obey the new covenant....

But that's not the part that gets me, it is, 'the concept of the Eternal Law of Elohym being done away with because somebody was obedient to it for thirty three years', that is what astounds me

Technically it is not done away with ...and still has the power to judge sinners....until that is accomplished ...there will be no need for the law and death will cease

from what I understand is that no man can obtain righteousness from the law but messiah...and he had to free the people who owes any debt to the law ...he paid for that debt for all mankind...setting a man free from sin and death which comes from the law


Now that messiah has paid for that law ..what need is their for the law ?....If messiah offers his children that righteousness which he obtained from the law ....should we not accept his gracious gift and serve him?

To put yourself back under the law is to deny messiah work from freeing you from the power of the law ..and deny the salvation that messiah has for you....

So when I go to court for stealing something today, all I have to do is tell him, But your Honor, I already obeyed the Law yesterday! So today I should be free from it's jurisdiction.

If I was under the law ...I would have to serve it everyday ...the law would run my life forever...and the law will eventually destroy me....I needed a savior to set me free from the power of the law...how can I overcome this inevitable circumstance I'm in?.... The lamb of hashem took the law and nailed it to the cross....yahshua did 2 things

1)He obtained righteousness and offers it to his followers making one righteous before hashem

2) he completed the law in fulfilling its death sentence for all sin...setting a man free from the power of the law

Yahshua makes children of Abraham...yahshua makes children of hashem without the law ..it is s gift ...not of works of the law ...he fulfilled the law for us

He is hashems savior for the whole world...whoever believes in his name and obeys his laws are saved and will enter the new Jerusalem ...any nation may come and receive ...this is the good news

Then there are those who say, 'No, no, He Fulfilled the Law' as if He had performed every criptural promise, yet the Swords still have not beaten into plow shares etc.,

Amen....messiah will fulfill all that the prophets said he would do...when he returns

The prophecies of Revelation all echo the Tanach, furthermore the scriptures report that the End is revealed at the Beginning-Genesis-Torah;

And the creme de le creme, Heaven & Earth are still Here, to show our entire existence still relies upon every jot of the word therein;

Yes but it is messiah job to fulfill all that the prophets said he will do....

Y'shua concluded that the Gist of the Law is Love, and He Fulfilled this Law of Love when He willingly allowed them to place Him on a pole;

I believe His fulfilling of-Obedience to the Law (further) Qualified Him to die for our sake, for His presence marked the Great and dreadful day of YHWH;

If he would have not chosen to die on that pole then only a remnant would have been spared with Him from another Global disaster;

I say 'further' qualified Him, because He professed to be 'The Son of Adam' (which is Mankind itself);

Since the flood of Noah's day Adam has had Only One of his Begotten Sons remaining alive on Earth;

We are literally the Many Members of the body of Seth (the third Son of Adam), who is (definitively) the Express image of Elohym, this is what qualified Him to die For all of Us;

To call it the Law of Moshe, as opposed to the Law of YHWH is to say Moshe did not sit in the seat of Elohym, and that the Law was not of YHWH, THAT is typical of the Spirit of Anti Christ, the word does have a definition besides opinion and misuse:

"...yahshua in the flesh obtained the righteousness of serving the law of Moses"

The word Righteousness means Justification, and Y'shua defined it as "our abiliity to assign an appropriate reason...";

Thus to say, Y'shua "...obtained the righteousness of serving the law ..." is the same as saying, he obtained an appropriate reason for subjugating himself, and bowing down to the Law;

"He then gives his righteousness to his followers who serve the spiritual law...he completed the law and builds his house the sons of Joseph . ..we gentile s are adopted into his house"

The Spirit of the Law is the Truth of the Law, the Law is a public declaration that pertains to the Will, and Righteousness of The Kingdom;

Therefore it is a parable, with two literal meanings that are figurative to one another, on one side is a natural phenomema, and on the other side a spiritual truth;

The natural phemomena is considered Milk for Carnal beings to grow by, and the Spiritual is considered Meat for those who are Mature enough to digest-handle the truth;

"...he completed the law..." Y'shua is the Word of Elohym, therefore he is the Law Completely from The Beginning to the End, and to say be Completed it is to say He Perfected it, but then what? Throw it out?

"Because the law condemned yahshua it cannot condemn his house ...it already condemned him...thus setting us free...it condemned our father once and for all sin...there is no need of a sacrifice anymore....the debts towards Moses law is paid for by the blood of hashem lamb once and forever"

"Because the law condemned yahshua it cannot condemn his house ...it already condemned him...thus setting us free..."

The (written) Law never condemned Y'shua, it was those who were in the position to uphold the (written) Law who condemned Y'shua based on their poor interpretation of the Law;

Those who followed the poor example of the priesthood have been liberated from their poor interpretations of the Law, yet Y'shua says do as they say;

"They" being those who quote and record the Law, as Moshe:

"So we obtain righteousness and are free from serving the law of Moses."

Where in the world did you find this verse??? Shame on you!

"Yahshua house is greater than Moses house ....Moses is a servant yahshua is a son ...and we are the sons of promise"

You are gravely mistaken, Moshe stood in the stead of Elohym who is servant to all, and though the Son is the Son he Also came to serve;

But if you believe his report, and receive him (The Word) in your heart, then you are also a Son, yet here you are working in His vineyard:

Why do I get these long posts.....If you don't mind we can hit one point at a time ...just how I prefer things


,peace

 

[Laureate]

Do you really want me to produce a list of new testament commands to obey to prove we are not without laws?

Ok

Off the top of my head ...

Judge not
Condemn not
Love all men
Do to others as you would be done unto you
Forgive trespasses 70x7
Obey parents
Wives submit to your husband's
Husbands love you wives
Resist the wiles of the devil
Flee youthful lust
Flee fornication
Confess to one another sins
Love you enemies
Resist evil
Mortify the deeds of the flesh..adultery sedition sexual imotality whoremongler abuse of mankind..ect
Bless them that persecute you
Pray for them that use and abuse you
Give to everyone that ask
And ask for it not back
Turn the other cheek
If anyone ask you to walk a mile walk two
Do not hate
Pray that you may be able to escape
When you pray ...Pray our father who live in heaven..ect...
Bear fruit...Love joy peace longsuffering forbearance ect
Put on the armour of God
Be fruitful
Have mercy
Do not avenge ..Vengeance is hashems
Resist the wiles of the devil
Baptize in the name of yahshua
Make disciples
Go into all the world preach the good news
Obey yahshua
Put on his yoke
Learn of yahshua
Carry one another's burdens
Hope for all things
Believe the gospel
Keep the commandments of yahshua
Keep the faith
Love not the world
Love hashem

Is this enough to prove we are not lawless ?or do you want all laws that exist in New covenant?

There are many many more laws we are called obey ...

"For had you believed Moshe, you would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if you believe not his writings, how shall you believe my words?" [John 5:46-47]

Basically he is saying, if one does not know the Torah, then one Only thinks they know what he is talking about, in other words the the New Testament is worthless without the hand-written Torah to comprehend it;

"For I have five brothers; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Abraham says unto him, They have Moshe and the prophets; let them hear them.

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moshe and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." [Luke 16:28-29 & 31]

Why would Y'shua recommend the Tanach, and not something New to avoid Hell?

I do not see Y'shua quoting anything from the New testament to battle the temptations of the Tempter on the Mount, instead he quotes three passages from the Tanach:

"Therefore all things whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." [Matthew7:12]

In this verse Y'shua is clearly showing that the (door were) Tanach (on), is the same Law of Love that the Father was preaching through him:

"Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which brings forth out of his treasure things new and old." [Matthew 13:52]

This passage deserves a thread of its own, yet how can a scribe bring forth something new from something that has been abolished?

"If you are fulfilling the royal law according to the scripture, then you are loving your neighbour as yourself, and you are doing well:" [James 2:8]

Mind you this law of love, and technically everything you listed is also mentioned in the Torah;

You will not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you will love your neighbour as yourself: I am YHWH." [Leviticus 19:18]

Is it because you never read these things, no! Just a veil!

 

[Laureate]

Because technically I am a gentile...I am not born a Jew ....but yes in the body of Christ we are one nation ..I am a gentile believer who one day will live in new Jerusalem with all nations who has believed in his words obey his laws and believe in his name"

Hello, a Gentile believer believes he is no longer a Gentile, because he is one in the body of H'Meshiach by virtue of their Faith, your logic here is extremely cloudy, then you say...

"...who one day will live in new Jerusalem with all nations who has believed in his words and obey his laws and believe in his name"

Wow, Abraham, Moshe, all the prophets, and all those who were obedient to his name are found in the kingdom, and everyone else cast out, I truly believe you have no idea of what you are saying, though what you say is true, you are failing to reconcile the verses, your not comprehending what is being said, yet Y'shua warned us of this as well:


"Amen....messiah will fulfill all that the prophets said he would do...when he returns



Yes but it is messiah job to fulfill all that the prophets said he will do...."

You do not see the two truths which you wrestle with, either he fulfilled the Law, or he did not but he will come and fulfill the law, which according to you has been fulfilled...




"Why do I get these long posts.....If you don't mind we can hit one point at a time ...just how I prefer things


,peace"

You presented too many errors all at once, and like anoying flies, I felt they each deserved my earnest attention, your tangeling with the big boys now, don't get dull of hearing on us now!

 

[yedida]

Wow! What has happened to this Messianic Judaism forum? I stay away for a month or two and return to find mainstream Christians teaching against Torah here. I thought that wasn't allowed!!
I'm just not up to the battle anymore. Guess I'll make myself scarce again. Carry on.....