Progressiveness is wrong morally and pragmatically.

[Autumnleaf]

Not spanking children raises them to be defiant of rules. This can put them at odds with society.

Allowing women in the work force has raised the average age at which women bear children which has contributed to less hearty children than in past times.

Permissiveness of divorce and adultery has led to the spread of disease and impoverished single parenthood.

Legalized abortion has led to the decimation of around 1/3 of pregnancies since its inception. This has hamstrung the future tax base which was to fund social welfare programs. In turn we have had to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants who work and pay taxes in a semilegal status.

The wholesale acceptace of buying on credit as a nation and as individuals has undermined our financial freedom and made us a nation of self imposed debtor slaves to our financial masters.

The Bible isn't a how to book for party poopers. The wisdom it contains has practical applications.

 

[LunarPlexus]

The Bible isn't a how to book for party poopers. The wisdom it contains has practical applications.

I wouldn't deny that the bible has laid down most of our moral foundations, and that it isn't a bad thing. There's a moral to every story.

But then, I'm one of those hypocritical and selective atheists: I pick and choose.

 

[Beanieboy]

You forgot:

Allowing people to no longer be slaves is costing the nation a lot of money, because we have to pay them now.

And slavery in the bible.

Welcome to 2007. Have a nice stay.

 

[naotmaa]

Not spanking children raises them to be defiant of rules. This can put them at odds with society.

Allowing women in the work force has raised the average age at which women bear children which has contributed to less hearty children than in past times.

Permissiveness of divorce and adultery has led to the spread of disease and impoverished single parenthood.

Legalized abortion has led to the decimation of around 1/3 of pregnancies since its inception. This has hamstrung the future tax base which was to fund social welfare programs. In turn we have had to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants who work and pay taxes in a semilegal status.

The wholesale acceptace of buying on credit as a nation and as individuals has undermined our financial freedom and made us a nation of self imposed debtor slaves to our financial masters.

The Bible isn't a how to book for party poopers. The wisdom it contains has practical applications.

Other examples of progressiveness:
Freeing of the slaves,Civil Rights movement,Legalizing interracial marriage,Women's suffrage, etc.

Would you consider these to be wrong morally and pragmatically?

 

[Maxwell511]

Not spanking children raises them to be defiant of rules. This can put them at odds with society.

Not spanking children requires the parents to instill the justification of the rules to the kids rather than following rules for rules sake. Makes them less moldable to fascist which in my opinion is good.

Allowing women in the work force has raised the average age at which women bear children which has contributed to less hearty children than in past times.

Coming from a reasonable sized Catholic family with the maximum temporal distance of 20 years between birth of siblings I can assure you that age of the mother at birth is not reflective of the "heartiness" of the child.

Permissiveness of divorce and adultery has led to the spread of disease and impoverished single parenthood.

Cos that never happened before.

Legalized abortion has led to the decimation of around 1/3 of pregnancies since its inception. This has hamstrung the future tax base which was to fund social welfare programs. In turn we have had to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants who work and pay taxes in a semilegal status.

Maybe if we permiss more extra-martial affairs the population might increase.

The wholesale acceptace of buying on credit as a nation and as individuals has undermined our financial freedom and made us a nation of self imposed debtor slaves to our financial masters.

Actually agree.

The Bible isn't a how to book for party poopers. The wisdom it contains has practical applications.

In fairness though while it may contain some wisdom most of it is crap for practical applications.

 

[I Just Believe In Me]

The Bible isn't a how to book for party poopers. The wisdom it contains has practical applications.

What application would that be?

 

[Bombila]

Not spanking children raises them to be defiant of rules. This can put them at odds with society.

The evidence does not support this statement at all. - B

Allowing women in the work force has raised the average age at which women bear children which has contributed to less hearty children than in past times.

A nonsense - have you never gone into an old graveyard and counted the numerous tiny gravestones? Young children and infants died like flies during the times when women were supposed to be staying home - not that many of them actually did, outside of the rich and the upper middle class, and the farmers. - B

Permissiveness of divorce and adultery has led to the spread of disease and impoverished single parenthood.

Same as it ever was, same as it ever was - world wars that killed so many men had the same effect, did you know that? Can you think of ways to alleviate the problem without resorting to forcing people to stay with spouses who beat and kill them? - B

Legalized abortion has led to the decimation of around 1/3 of pregnancies since its inception. This has hamstrung the future tax base which was to fund social welfare programs. In turn we have had to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants who work and pay taxes in a semilegal status.

Can't comment, I'm not an American. - B

The wholesale acceptace of buying on credit as a nation and as individuals has undermined our financial freedom and made us a nation of self imposed debtor slaves to our financial masters.

The Bible isn't a how to book for party poopers. The wisdom it contains has practical applications.

I have no idea how you get from your list of complaints to a plug for the Bible.

 

[Patashu]

I've never once been spanked and yet I have the moral grounding to understand why rules exist and follow them.

I also believe I'm the rule, not the exception.

EDIT: Oh, almost forgot; Abortion is far from a new thing, it's been around pretty much forever. Natural abortion-inducing herbs and medicines have been known for a long time.

 

[ReverendDG]

Not spanking children raises them to be defiant of rules. This can put them at odds with society.

spanking causes more problems than it cures, if NOT spanking causes problems i think the source is something with the child, maybe a sociopath

Allowing women in the work force has raised the average age at which women bear children which has contributed to less hearty children than in past times.

thats a load of crap. a hundred years ago you were lucky to have half your children survive birth, progression in quality of life outweighs the later time children are being born

Permissiveness of divorce and adultery has led to the spread of disease and impoverished single parenthood.

i think the fact that women don't need a man to be happy because they can survive on their own has more to do with divorce. namely because you don't need to stay married to a wife beater
the other two are based on stupidity.

Legalized abortion has led to the decimation of around 1/3 of pregnancies since its inception. This has hamstrung the future tax base which was to fund social welfare programs. In turn we have had to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants who work and pay taxes in a semilegal status.

proof of this? we have 300 million people in this country and kids starving in the streets and worse things than abortion, yet we have enough kids even with the abortions

if you want to blame anyone for illegal immigrants blame big business for not wanting to take a bit of a hit for hiring people that are not illegal

The wholesale acceptace of buying on credit as a nation and as individuals has undermined our financial freedom and made us a nation of self imposed debtor slaves to our financial masters.

sorry but thats the choice you make, if you are a slave to debt, then you only have yourself to blame

The Bible isn't a how to book for party poopers. The wisdom it contains has practical applications.

what wisdom? the bible doesn't work for this day and age anymore, look at the OT, no jewish person follows every law in the OT, and they mostly use the talmud. mainly because it moves with the times.

i mean come on do you still stone people? if not the bible has little meaning.
if you mean spiritual truths, the bible isn't the sole source of those

 

[FadingWhispers3]

When God created man he did not create man to be incapable of sin. Does anyone doubt that God is powerful enough to have done so? Yet he did not. When God put Adam in the garden of Eden, could he not not have created the Tree of the Fruit of Knowledge of Good and Evil or have fenced it? Yet he did not. Did God not know man would disobey him, did God not know that the result would be great suffering and the break between him and man? Yet he did so anyway.

At every point in the bible, God made it so that there were choices to do good, choices to do evil and consequences. Nowhere did he take the choice away to do evil, although it was harmful to people and repugnant to his Holiness.

Are we wiser than God?

I would say God is the first progressive and the greatest. In his wisdom he found value in giving man freedom for a time... even freedom to do evil... while delaying judgment. God found it a fair trade to allow man to fall that man might be saved.

That is progressivness: that you do what you will and reap the consequences. Even if evil, you made the choice yourself and no one made it for you. Even if it was a mistake, it was your mistake.

 

[Renton405]

Not spanking children raises them to be defiant of rules. This can put them at odds with society.

Allowing women in the work force has raised the average age at which women bear children which has contributed to less hearty children than in past times.

Permissiveness of divorce and adultery has led to the spread of disease and impoverished single parenthood.

Legalized abortion has led to the decimation of around 1/3 of pregnancies since its inception. This has hamstrung the future tax base which was to fund social welfare programs. In turn we have had to turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants who work and pay taxes in a semilegal status.

The wholesale acceptace of buying on credit as a nation and as individuals has undermined our financial freedom and made us a nation of self imposed debtor slaves to our financial masters.

The Bible isn't a how to book for party poopers. The wisdom it contains has practical applications.

someone who actually has a sense.

Be prepared to be flamed for this one. Truth like this is like salt on a fresh wound..

You should read the book by Ann Coulter " GODLESS The Church of Liberalism". Wonderful book

Permisiveness of divorce is the great problem in this country. There are marriages that sometimes last 20 days! is this how little we view marriage??

We have desecrated marriage so much that its now ok for homosexuals and lesbians to marry in some states.. Marriage is greatly under attack, and once the value of marriage is gone you can say goodbye to good parenting values. Instead the child will grow up with 20 stepfathers and no real mother or father to confide in.

And people wonder why the US has the highest murder and drug use rate in the world. I can't even imagine the boiling wrath of God for this country. What will be the next plaugue after AIDS?

 

[The Bellman]

someone who actually has a sense.

Be prepared to be flamed for this one. Truth like this is like salt on a fresh wound..

You should read the book by Ann Coulter " GODLESS The Church of Liberalism". Wonderful book

Permisiveness of divorce is the great problem in this country. There are marriages that sometimes last 20 days! is this how little we view marriage??

We have desecrated marriage so much that its now ok for homosexuals and lesbians to marry in some states.. Marriage is greatly under attack, and once the value of marriage is gone you can say goodbye to good parenting values. Instead the child will grow up with 20 stepfathers and no real mother or father to confide in.

And people wonder why the US has the highest murder and drug use rate in the world. I can't even imagine the boiling wrath of God for this country. What will be the next plaugue after AIDS?

This is just nonsense. The US, in respect to 'permissiveness' is no worse than many other nations. Certainly, it's no worse than most of Europe, the UK, Australia...why do American fundies think god has particular wrath in store for America? Although from someone who thinks anything by Coulter is a "wonderful book", I shoudln't be surprised.

And the idea that AIDS is a plague visited on the world because of the US' misbehaviour...well...words fail me.

 

[Patashu]

First, are there any studies out there that show the advantages of being spanked as a child outweigh the disadvantages? Say-so is meaningless in any form of arguement or debate.

Secondly, just what is wrong with homosexuality anyway? I've never got that. Love is love as long as they both consent to each other, isn't it?

 

[bunced]

I can't help wondering if the fact that US murder rate is quite so high is due more to the insistence that every American should be able to have a gun, and that self protection, whether against real or perceived threats, belongs in the hand of the civilian rather than the state's law authorities.

But I digress, what I really wanted to discuss was the opening post (I know, revolutionary idea ). I think it is inherently flawed in the way that it does not in any way define progressiveness. Therefore, it is ruling out, by nature, surely, any form of change.

Now, to my mind, that also rules out most of the New Testament, because that is unequivocally progressive by the standards of its day. Look at it - we have dangerous messages about Jews and Gentiles being equally atoned for, we have the idea that we don't have to work for our salvation but it instead comes by Grace. We have the concept that women can have an elevated role in society (for example, any conservative would not have wanted women to be the first to discover the resurrection, because they were unreliable witnesses at the time). And there are many more examples of a progressive streak to the Early Church and the life of Christ.

Now I'm assuming these aren't wrong in your eyes.

Therefore, it comes down to a question of needing to define progressiveness more thoroughly and robustly, because at the moment it is coming across as more of a rant against anyone who happens to disagree with you rather than an argument that is able to stand up to any scrutiny.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

The Bible isn't a how to book for party poopers. The wisdom it contains has practical applications.

Quite right. Like slavery, racism, witch hunts, ownership of women and the Holocaust.

 

[selfinflikted]

I won't respond to the points in the OP, but I would like to just go on record as to say that the poster of the OP always seems to have such a negative outlook on life. You should really do something about that. It isn't healthy.

 

[chaz345]

First, are there any studies out there that show the advantages of being spanked as a child outweigh the disadvantages?

Well I know that there aren't any that say the opposite that aren't seriously flawed in their methodology.

 

[chaz345]

I can't help wondering if the fact that US murder rate is quite so high is due more to the insistence that every American should be able to have a gun,

Nope that's not it. Countries with higher per capita gun ownership have a lower murder rate than the US. That and there's the fact that most murders aren't even commited with guns in the first place.

 

[Skavau]

Permisiveness of divorce is the great problem in this country. There are marriages that sometimes last 20 days! is this how little we view marriage??

So?

We have desecrated marriage so much that its now ok for homosexuals and lesbians to marry in some states..

So?

Marriage is greatly under attack, and once the value of marriage is gone you can say goodbye to good parenting values. Instead the child will grow up with 20 stepfathers and no real mother or father to confide in.

How do you know this will be true of all children?

 

[IzzyPop]

someone who actually has a sense.

Not really.

Be prepared to be flamed for this one. Truth like this is like salt on a fresh wound..

You should read the book by Ann Coulter " GODLESS The Church of Liberalism". Wonderful book

Only if you like polemics that really help solve or illuminate nothing.

Permisiveness of divorce is the great problem in this country. There are marriages that sometimes last 20 days! is this how little we view marriage??

For some people, yes. I would recommend that you not marry them. Otherwise, can you show me how they impact your life? Specific examples would help immensely.

We have desecrated marriage so much that its now ok for homosexuals and lesbians to marry in some states.. Marriage is greatly under attack, and once the value of marriage is gone you can say goodbye to good parenting values. Instead the child will grow up with 20 stepfathers and no real mother or father to confide in.

Huh? How does homosexual marriage have anything to do with how many step parents a child has? Or parenting values, for that matter?

And people wonder why the US has the highest murder and drug use rate in the world.

Not really. Religiosity seems to have a role in it. Actually, that is not entirely true. There seems to be a correlation between high level of theism and crime.

I can't even imagine the boiling wrath of God for this country. What will be the next plaugue after AIDS?

So AIDS in god's punishment, eh? So god hates straight black women now? And has always loved lesbians?