Progress

[Lion Hearted Man]

Then show me where it doesn't apply to my OP.

It's more complicated than "success", "failure", both, or neither. You try so hard to get your opponents in these discussions to fall into gotcha moments. You want so badly for someone to say that the Challenger tragedy was a "success" because after that we learned more about O-rings. No one is going to fall for it.

 

[AV1611VET]

The Challenger failed in its objectives, that is pretty evident. What else is there to say?

That's it?

The Challenger failed in its objectives?

Nothing else to say?

I can think of some things.

Namely, that out of this tragedy, [hopefully] comes:

1. A new-and-improved shuttle.
2. An end to allowing scientists & administration to take 'frustration votes' after six or seven delays.
3. Prison cells for those who voted: "Get 'em up there! We're tired of looking at this thing just sitting on the launch pad!"
4. A proper respect for why something was delayed ... even if it's been delayed 10 times.
5. A proper scientific respect for how temperature affects matter.
6. A proper scientific respect for the limits of endurance for Snap-on rings and other cheap parts.
7. A greater respect for life from the scientific community. Maybe if they started seeing souls boarding their economically-made vehicles, instead of just 'human resources', it would be different -- (but sadly I doubt it).

 

[Freodin]

You have two rubber stamps: one says SUCCESS, the other says FAILURE.

You have in front of you a report containing the Challenger disaster, along with the design of the new-and-improved (and much safer) shuttle.

Stamp the report.

Why would you? Is there anything - beyond your desire - requiring to have everything labeled "success" or "failure" wholesale?

 

[AV1611VET]

Why would you? Is there anything - beyond your desire - requiring to have everything labeled "success" or "failure" wholesale?

So the Challenger mission, even though it spawned a new-and-improved and much safer model, was neither a success, nor a failure?

... I'd hate to see a real failure!

 

[Freodin]

So the Challenger mission, even though it spawned a new-and-improved and much safer model, was neither a success, nor a failure?

... I'd hate to see a real failure!

The mission did not accomplish the goal it was set to do. In that regard, it was a failure. It cost a lot, in terms of money, material, life and honour. In that regard, it also was a failure. It served as a wake-up call for the responsible people. In that regard, it was a success. It gave an impetus to implement long due improvements. In that regard, it was a success.

It was a small success and a huge failure. And it was a lot of other things.

But you don't want to accept that, do you? Complicated situations do not fit within your worldview.

Which reminds me of another situation: God's creation of Adam and Eve. Success or failure?

 

[Skavau]

You have two rubber stamps: one says SUCCESS, the other says FAILURE.

You have in front of you a report containing the Challenger disaster, along with the design of the new-and-improved (and much safer) shuttle.

Stamp the report.

This is a false dichtonomy.

What we've learned may save future lives. What we did was a failure of human consequence.

That is my answer. Deal with it. You're just looking for someone to declare a human tragedy a "success" so you can condemn them for being inhuman and by extension condemn all of science for being inhuman. You're half as cunning as you think.

 

[AV1611VET]

The mission did not accomplish the goal it was set to do. In that regard, it was a failure. It cost a lot, in terms of money, material, life and honour. In that regard, it also was a failure. It served as a wake-up call for the responsible people. In that regard, it was a success. It gave an impetus to implement long due improvements. In that regard, it was a success.

So it was a success and a failure?

But you don't want to accept that, do you?

Yes, I do.

Why wouldn't I?

You're the one having trouble with this ... not I.

 

[AV1611VET]

You're just looking for someone to declare a human tragedy a "success" so you can condemn them for being inhuman and by extension condemn all of science for being inhuman. You're half as cunning as you think.

Well declare it something.

Did you read my OP?

 

[Freodin]

So it was a success and a failure?

That would depend on the desired outcome, and that of course would depend on the desires.

Yes, I do.

Why wouldn't I?

You're the one having trouble with this ... not I.

Well, I wasn't the one who wanted to rubber stamp a report with either "success" or "failure". I was to one who asked you why everything had to be called either or. And somehow you were the one who couldn't leave it at that.

So who is the one with the problems?

 

[Skavau]

Well declare it something.

Did you read my OP?

I did.

I've also given you my answer.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, I wasn't the one who wanted to rubber stamp a report with either "success" or "failure".

Here's the OP again ... with emphasis:

If a scientific endeavor fails to achieve its stated expectations ... even fails drastically, but from it comes a new and/or better product; is that scientific endeavor considered a "success" or a "failure"? or both? or neither? or what?

Now ... feel free to stamp the Challenger fiasco however you want.

And while you're at it, feel free to answer the OP as well.

 

[Skavau]

That's nice, but you were trying to get people to stamp it with either success or failure.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7666073-2/#post60790508

You have two rubber stamps: one says SUCCESS, the other says FAILURE.

You have in front of you a report containing the Challenger disaster, along with the design of the new-and-improved (and much safer) shuttle.

Stamp the report.

 

[AV1611VET]

I did.

I've also given you my answer.

Heaven forbid asking you guys to rubber stamp something is akin to asking you guys to psychoanalyze me and open your Pandora's box of venting & ridicule.

I probably should have made this thread into a poll, but that wouldn't stop you guys from your accusations, would it?

 

[Skavau]

Heaven forbid asking you guys to rubber stamp something is akin to asking you guys to psychoanalyze me and open your Pandora's box of venting & ridicule.

It can't be rubber stamped unequivocally as a failure or a succes.

Your opening post was to ask us whether or not a scientific attempt that fails to reach its expectations but leads to new insight is a success, failure or something else.

The broad answer to that question is yes depending on variables. If it increases the sum total of human knowledge and leads to benefits down the line, yes. If it comes about as an accident with no environmental or human cost, yes as well. If it involves human cost then the human tragedy is a failure. The current knowledge or human error led to disaster.

Any new knowledge gained can prevent it from happening again, but the cost certainly wouldn't have been worth it.

 

[AV1611VET]

It can't be rubber stamped unequivocally as a failure or a succes.

Your opening post was to ask us whether or not a scientific attempt that fails to reach its expectations but leads to new insight is a success, failure or something else.

The broad answer to that question is yes depending on variables. If it increases the sum total of human knowledge and leads to benefits down the line, yes. If it comes about as an accident with no environmental or human cost, yes as well. If it involves human cost then the human tragedy is a failure. The current knowledge or human error led to disaster.

Any new knowledge gained can prevent it from happening again, but the cost certainly wouldn't have been worth it.

I'm not going to argue with you guys.

Just go to vent & ridicule mode until you get tired of it and give up; maybe find a word or two to ask a definition of, if you want to.

I'll go to read-only and enjoy the attention.

(I might as well get something out of this thread.)

 

[Skavau]

Not sure where I ridiculed you at all.

 

[AV1611VET]

Not sure where I ridiculed you at all.

Ya ... you disappoint me.

 

[Freodin]

Here's the OP again ... with emphasis:

Now ... feel free to stamp the Challenger fiasco however you want.

And while you're at it, feel free to answer the OP as well.

I answered it in post #10... "Or what".

So it seems you got your answer. What are you still trolling for?

 

[CabVet]

Was the Challenger's last mission branded a "success", in light of the new-and-improved shuttles?

(If you don't know, then I'll assume it was ... based on your answer; unless you say otherwise.)

I am sick and tired of this Challenger BS, so here: it was a success, you won't see any future accident because of that particular o'ring failure and you just saved the lives of hundreds of future astronauts (although you had a few casualties). And you know what? The crusades and the inquisition were successes too, hopefully people won't use religion to justify genocide in the future (oh, wait, I am not so sure about that, 9/11 anybody?).

 

[1000Flames]

Which reminds me of another situation: God's creation of Adam and Eve. Success or failure?

I like how this was left ignored. Pretty telling.