Profiling

[Blindfaith]

Bravo Wols!!

You hit the nail right on the head.  Gee, I dunno ~ you think profiling could possibly work?

 

[fin]

Whether it is effective or not is irrelevant. Profiling is not only racism, it also leads to a more racist society. When profiling is accepted, those people that come under suspicion loose their constitutional right to be innocent until proven guilty. Once they become a target, the general publlic looks at them with suspicion. These minority groups are much more likely to be brought to court when profiling takes place. In court they are more likely to be found guilty. How is this not racism?

The U.S. is still not over the discrimination against blacks. Year after year black people are more likely to be tried and found guilty in court. They are more likely to recieve the death penalty. At a time when serious reform should be taking place we are instead talking about increasing racist policies.

I feel confidant that the supreme court will overturn any laws that allow profiling. If, however, these unconstitutional laws are instituted, there will be national unrest. Profiling laws will create the perfect atmosphere for civil disobedience. In such a situation the U.S. had better hope another Martin Luther King arises, or the internal conflict in the U.S. will lead to blood shed and violence.

You may feel that I am over reacting, but whenever basic human rights are ignored the consequences are serious. History shows us that immoral laws inevitably lead to conflict.

 

[Wolseley]

Well, fin, when we get groups of Swedes who fly airplanes into buildings, Argentine gauchos who row boatloads of explosives into American warships, Haitians who blow up American embassies in Africa, Canadian Eskimos who hijack cruise ships and murder the passengers, Fiji islanders who take potshots at US Marines, and New Zealanders who take over theaters in Moscow and threaten to shoot the patrons, I'll be a shade more inclined to accept profiling as "racist".

As long as the merry hijinks continue to be perpetrated by Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40, however, I will continue to maintain that profiling is simply common sense.

 

[Blindfaith]

You may feel that I am over reacting, but whenever basic human rights are ignored the consequences are serious. History shows us that immoral laws inevitably lead to conflict.

Interesting choice of words.  You seem to be concentrating wholly on the basic human rights of those being profiled, specifically those of Arab descent who usually don't even know they're being profiled when it's happening. 

I was under the impression that me, my husband and four daughters have the basic human right to live free, and not have to worry about a radical Muslim extremist, male, between the ages of 17-40 doing something immoral (your word) that jeapordizes our health and happiness.

The world has changed.  It's not going to be the same.  I could care less if anybody profiles me, because I have nothing to worry about because I'm not a lunatic.  I could care less if the terrorists were purple, green or orange.  Profile.

 

[fin]

"As long as the merry hijinks continue to be perpetrated by Muslim male extremists"

What about Timothy McVeigh? He was a white Christian.

"I was under the impression that me, my husband and four daughters have the basic human right to live free"

You do have this right, just as everyone does. However, the freedom of all people is tied together. If one section of the population has their freedom taken away, the freedom of the entire community is threatened. The rights of the Muslims in America are forever linked to the rights of the Christian.

 

[Wolseley]

What about Timothy McVeigh? He was a white Christian.

Timothy McVeigh was one isolated loon, who perpetrated one travesty. Muslim extremists number into the thousands, and they strike over and over and over again.

 

[fin]

Timothy McVeigh is not the only white terrorist. There are many more like him who use terroristic activities to achieve their goals. If you wish, I can list many of them. The logic you are using is the same logic that was used (and is often still used) to discriminate against blacks.

I urge you to rethink your position. Have we learned nothing from our ancestors? Are we going to ignore history and sacrifice peace on the alter of false security?

 

[Gunny]

Originally posted by fin

What about Timothy McVeigh? He was a white Christian.

White? Yes. Christian? Definitely not.

 

[datan]

why does profiling necessarily equate racism? To me, in its purest form, profiling simply looks at past statistical data at the group of people who commit a certain act, and assumes that the next person who commits the same act is likely to be from that same group. That's just mathematical probabililty and statistics--as a way of focusing your scarce resources. You obviously can't scrutinise everyone, you have to choose who you target, and you're more likely statistically speaking to be more effective if you target people from a certain group that fits your "profile". Now take for example the recent profiling of the DC sniper before he was caught. Most of the talking heads were saying that he was likely to be an ex-military, white male of a certain age. The police didn't stop most of the cars on the highways, certainly not the 86-year old grandma or the 16 year old teen on her way to school? Why didn't anyone complain about targetting males? That's sexism. Or people of a certain age? That's age-ism (?). I'm not in law enforcement, but I'd guess that they felt that between two males in a car & a mother and her kids in the back, they'd feel more 'lucky' checking out the males. Is that profiling? Definitely.

Would it make a difference if the characteristic of the group wasn't race or ethnicity but maybe profession? Say the police comes across a serial killer who slices up his victims really professionally. Would they be more likely to check out surgeons and butchers in the area, or lawyers and teachers? That's also profiling--and personally I feel that it makes sense.

 

[datan]

Originally posted by fin
Timothy McVeigh is not the only white terrorist. There are many more like him who use terroristic activities to achieve their goals. If you wish, I can list many of them. The logic you are using is the same logic that was used (and is often still used) to discriminate against blacks. 

Alright--please make your list. I'll make one as well, and I guess we can swap?

I'm not quite sure what your point is. The US is specifically trying to stop the next act of terrorism by Islamic militants--not domestic white extremists. If white extremists were a treat to the national security to the US today, you can bet that they'd be profiled right now. It just happens that a certain terrorist organization has made the US its sworn enemy, and the US is acting on that premise. And it so happens that the certain terrorist organization has members who for the most part share certain similar characteristics--which may be as narrowly defined as "past guests of camp Afghanistan" or "Islamic militants". Regardless, they are paying more attention to certain people than to others.

 

[fin]

"why does profiling necessarily equate racism?"

Ask someone who has been a victim. Ask a black person who is pulled over by the cops because of their skin color. Ask a black male who has been followed around in a store. Ask an Greek person who is not allowed on an airplane. Ask a black male who is in jail because a cop arrested him because of his color. Ask a palistinian who is thrown out of his home because of his heritage. They can tell you why profiling is racism better than I can.

"If white extremists were a treat to the national security to the US today, you can bet that they'd be profiled right now."

I would gladly take that bet. When the KKK commits a string of crimes do all white males come under suspicion? When a few abortionist clinics are bombed are all white Christians suspected? While white people are in power they will never come under the harsh suspicion that minorities are given.

 

[Blindfaith]

My daughter's best friend and her family are from India.  They've been over here for a few years, and still have a deep, beautiful accent to their speech (it's so gorgeous, I'm jealous).

Her teenage son, since 9/11 has been profiled on a couple of occassions, and do you know what his reaction was?  He understands, and doesn't care because he has nothing to worry about.  He acted like a mature adult, not alike a person who's be unjustly accused.

Know what else he did?  He enlisted in the Army, to help out his country, the one that he loves.  THAT is an incredible young man.  He has a deep faith in God, and knows that in all things, God works for the good of those who love him (Romans 8:28).

He's not whining and crying about civil rights this and prejudice that, he's being proactive and helping.

The family's main focus is on God, and not on politics or civil laws.  Their priorities are right on target.

fin, if you believe so strongly in this, then why don't you contact your legistators, or the NAACP, or the ACLU, and help them out if that's what you believe in?  How does posting over and over again help your "cause"?  You're going to believe in what you believe in, as well as everybody else here.

Where is this "debate" going anyway?  Is my position going to change your mind?  No.  Is your position going to change mine?  No.

 

[datan]

Originally posted by fin


"If white extremists were a treat to the national security to the US today, you can bet that they'd be profiled right now."

I would gladly take that bet. When the KKK commits a string of crimes do all white males come under suspicion? When a few abortionist clinics are bombed are all white Christians suspected? While white people are in power they will never come under the harsh suspicion that minorities are given. [/B]

We-ell, in the sense that the police aren't out looking for black elderly women, but a white Christian male--yes white Christians are being profiled.

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

Originally posted by fin
Profiling is racism. Didn't we Americans learn our lesson during the Civil Rights movement? It is a disgrace that after all our country has been through we still consider racial profiling a viable method of fighting crime.

Should it be innocent untill proven Arab or Black?

Racism? hmmmm...

No its not. Does profiling include race? Yes.

In fact when the DC shootings where going on, I was 90% sure it was a white guy. I PROFILED! Boy i know that the African American community is thrown for a blow when it was found out to be white. I heard about it all over the air ways. Blacks where so put out by this. You know? I thought nothing of it. I was shocked it wasnt a white guy. Shocked, I tell ya. I was even Shocked it was a black guy. Black people dont do that.

When the Rapper for RunDMC was shot, i thought to myself more Gang warfare. You know what? I wasn't the only one. It was all over the airwaves. That's profiling.

When i see a Confederate Flag, i think it some RedNeck. I profiled.

When i see a guy with a big nose. I think they are probably Jewish. I profiled.

When i see a group of people with party hats on, i think its someones birthday. I profiled.

You do too.

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

Originally posted by fin
"why does profiling necessarily equate racism?"

Ask someone who has been a victim. Ask a black person who is pulled over by the cops because of their skin color. Ask a black male who has been followed around in a store. Ask an Greek person who is not allowed on an airplane. Ask a black male who is in jail because a cop arrested him because of his color. Ask a palistinian who is thrown out of his home because of his heritage. They can tell you why profiling is racism better than I can.

Your right. ANd you know what? If a low rider with tinted windows came through my neighborhood with the guys wearing bandanas on their head. Your darn right i am profiling and getting myself in the house, if not calling the cops for a supicious vehicle. I've never seen a well to do black guy that didnt look the part. Never. I live in a very multicultural Neighborhood. All well to do people. The color of the skin doesn't faze me. Looking like you don't belong does.

And if you are Arab and your going to the Jerusalem Airport, you might as well pack a lunch because you will be screened for hours. This wouldnt happen if the Arabs haven't been at war with the Israelis.

Profiling has good and bad. But the fact remains it is done by you and me.

There was a hijacking of a plane in France. Do you think it was a black group? Hispanic group? How about a white group? Or do you think it was some Arab Muslims?

 

[fin]

"He's not whining and crying about civil rights this and prejudice that, he's being proactive and helping."

He is not helping when he allows his civil liberties to be taken away. Are we to sacrifice the freedoms that our grandparents were willing to die for? Again and again we say we honor the sacrifices of the soldiers of our country. At the same time we are giving up the very freedoms that they risked their lives fighting for. While this man you speak of is certainly making an honorable choice, he is also contributing to a greater problem.

"How does posting over and over again help your "cause"?"

There is always the posibility that someone will agree with me and in turn help stop these practices. It is also possible that there are people here who have personally been the victim of racism and prejudice. I hope they realise that not all Christian Americans support practices that promote racism. I come to this forum mostly because I enjoy debating religion. When I saw this thread, however, I felt that I was obligated to respond to the nearly unanimous support of profiling.

"No its not. Does profiling include race? Yes."

I do not believe that repeating my previous posts would be constructive. I just ask that you think of the victims of profiling. View their situation with compassion. I stand by my previous statment that if profiling is legalized there will be civil disorder. How many times will we have to fight the war against racism?

 

[Extirpated Wildlife]

Originally posted by fin
"He's not whining and crying about civil rights this and prejudice that, he's being proactive and helping."

He is not helping when he allows his civil liberties to be taken away. Are we to sacrifice the freedoms that our grandparents were willing to die for? Again and again we say we honor the sacrifices of the soldiers of our country. At the same time we are giving up the very freedoms that they risked their lives fighting for. While this man you speak of is certainly making an honorable choice, he is also contributing to a greater problem.

"No its not. Does profiling include race? Yes."

I do not believe that repeating my previous posts would be constructive. I just ask that you think of the victims of profiling. View their situation with compassion. I stand by my previous statment that if profiling is legalized there will be civil disorder. How many times will we have to fight the war against racism?

Victims that truly were criminals? Victims because their was enough cause to have to do something that could save lives in the long run? Victims because there is a slew of people that we have to find because they are out to kill millions and millions of people? They became a victim but not a statistic. What about the thousands that were killed by Muslims extremist? "well we can't say they were muslim extremist or even muslim because that would be profiling".

This reminds me alot of what happened when i was in school. If a kid did something wrong in class and the teacher knew but did not know, she(there i going stereotyping teachers) would ask the class who did. If no one would tell the whole class was basically given extra homework because no one blabed.

Because no real criminal will actually step forward and claim responsibilty for the actions, the whole race can be punished. Yes, this is wrong. Absolutely. I am against that. But the Muslim Extremist are out to kill millions of americans and basically anyone not muslim and doesn't agree with them.

There is no choice if we want to protect our land. The problem with these people is they have worked to blend in like normal everyday people. And if they get caught they start shouting "I am being unlawfully profiled" as well.

You think criminals are going to admit they were correctly profiled?

I don't care if Cops pulled over every single person after midnight every night to give them sobriety tests. Everyone.

I dont care if everyone is required to give fingerprints.

I'm sorry but i have nothing to hide. Big brother doesn't faze me. It only fazes the people who are guilty or are afraid that something in their past will be found out. it also affect people who are wrongfully accused. But lets be real. You actually think that most people are wrongfully accused?

Honestly i can only speak as a white person and maybe thats my crime.

Dont get me wrong FIN, I understand where you are coming from. But recognize why there is much talk about this now.

Is a victim of profiling worth the cost of millions of lives possibly saved from terroist attacks?

 

[Blindfaith]

He is not helping when he allows his civil liberties to be taken away. Are we to sacrifice the freedoms that our grandparents were willing to die for? Again and again we say we honor the sacrifices of the soldiers of our country

Hm.  I would like to humbly and politely ask you not to talk about a serviceman, especially one that I know, that way.

By all means, you have the "freedom" to speak what you'd like, but at the same time, I think it would be somewhat offensive to the people that are laying their lives on the line right now, for that freedom you are enjoying so much.

I'm not speaking in a critical nature at all, in fact, I'm rather calm   It is just my desire that all due respect go to those who are doing a job I'm too cowardly to do.

~Peace in Christ

 

[fin]

I apoligize if it sounded as if I was being impolite. I respect those who are willing to give their lives for our freedom. It is because of my respect for them that I hope that they are not risking their lives needlesly. What good is fighting other countries for the sake of freedom, when those left at home give it up volluntarily? It is out of gratitude and respect for those that fought for my freedom that I now also fight for it. Should we instead honor our soldiers with eloquent words while crushing their sacrifice in our blundering? Is it not worth the slight risk of danger in order to preserve the freedom bought for us by those that faced a far greater danger?