Profile Choices....

[LittleGirlLost]

I don't understand some of the profile choices for Endtimes, so I was hoping you guys could explain them and why or why not to believe them.

I tried to put this in apologetics, but I can't post there because I don't have 100 posts yet. Anyway, here are the choices given...

Historic

Preterist

Futurist

Amillenialism

Premillenialism

Postmillenialism

Pretribulation

Midtribulation

Posttribulation



Thanks.

 

[FSTDT]

Historic
This is the view that the book of Revelation is not a story of the end times, but an allegorical commentary representing the socio-political climate of the time. Generally, it is accept that Revelation was written when there was a lot of persecution of the early Christians, and oppressive imperial cult worship was imminent, implying that John of Patmos wrote the story in the form of vague symbols understood only to the readers to persuade them not to give into the persecution.

This view is taken by most liberal to moderate Biblical scholars, and it is explained a little more at this site. The symbols identify Babylon as the Roman Empire, the seven headed dragon adorned in seven crowns as the seven preceding Roman kings, the woman in scarlet and purple as a symbol of Rome (because those are the colors of the Roman empire), the bizarre locusts that erupt out of the ground as Roman footsoldiers, and the Anti-Christ as Emperor Dolmitia.


Preterist
This view in general interprets Revelation as a story of the end-times, it states that all or most of the prophecies in Revelation and Daniel have been fulfilled. There are actually 2 kinds of preterism: Partial Preterism and Full Preterism:

Partial: this is generally the view that almost all of the prophecies have been fulfilled (by at least 70 AD because Jesus said he'd fulfill his prophecies before the end of the first generation) with the exclusion the Second Coming, Day of Judgment, and Rapture.

Full: believes that all prophecies in scripture occurred before 70 AD. Generally, it takes the view that many of the prophecies in scripture dont tell of a Rapture, but rather the destruction of Jerusalem. It also takes the event known as the Second Resurrection, where the bible describes that the dead will raise physically out of the ground to be Judge by Christ, as more or less a symbolic event where souls resting in the Sheol rise spiritually to the Heavenly (or Hellish) realm.

In both types of preterism, the events in Revelation are told as occurring a very long time ago and are generally localized. It also views many of the apocalyptic events and depictions of the anti-christ as symbolic rather than of literal events or real people.

Futurist
Almost all people who believe in the Rapture are Futurists (or partial Futurists). The view that the prophecies in Revelation have yet to be fulfilled (a partial Futurists believes that we are already seeing the prophecies fulfilled today). The most notable difference between Futurism and Preterism is that Futurists believe that the events in Revelation are apocalyptic and will occur on a global scale.

Amillenialism
The belief that Jesus Christ's 1000 year reign in the Second Coming is figurative. Generally, this view is held by preterists who believe that Christ will not erect a physical church on Earth, but a spiritual church.

Premillenialism
This is the belief that after the Tribulation, Jesus Christ will establish a physical 1000 year reign on earth that will be paradise before the final judgment.

Postmillenialism
A view that ignores the Rapture and Tribulation, it states that the world will have a massive religious revival that will last for 1000 years (or an arbitrarily long length of time) of peace before Christ comes back for the final judgment.

Pretribulation
A view that says that believers will be raptured away before the Tribulation so they dont have to experience pain and suffering.

Midtribulation
A view that says the rapture will occur 3 1/2 years after the Tribulation has begun. Some take this view to imply that there will be several mini-tribulations, they even go so far as to say that massive alien abductions or planes that disappear from midair are "secular" explanations for the miniraptures.

Posttribulation
A view that states that believers are not spared the horrors of the Tribulation, but they will eventually be raptured at the end of the 7-year tribulation.

 

[warghaha]

You post is so informative. Thanks

 

[LittleGirlLost]

Historic
This is the view that the book of Revelation is not a story of the end times, but an allegorical commentary representing the socio-political climate of the time. Generally, it is accept that Revelation was written when there was a lot of persecution of the early Christians, and oppressive imperial cult worship was imminent, implying that John of Patmos wrote the story in the form of vague symbols understood only to the readers to persuade them not to give into the persecution.

This view is taken by most liberal to moderate Biblical scholars, and it is explained a little more at this site. The symbols identify Babylon as the Roman Empire, the seven headed dragon adorned in seven crowns as the seven preceding Roman kings, the woman in scarlet and purple as a symbol of Rome (because those are the colors of the Roman empire), the bizarre locusts that erupt out of the ground as Roman footsoldiers, and the Anti-Christ as Emperor Dolmitia.

Wow... Thanks. That was really great!!! I have a question about Historic.

If the general belief is that it was all symbolic and has already happened, does that mean that people who believe in that don't believe in an endtimes by Gods hand, but that we will live on until we screw it up for ourselves. For example, do they think that Jesus will actually come back and rapture us, judge everyone and once and call it a day, or that we will all get our chance when we die naturally and that the human race will continue on until a major even occurs naturally such as a meteor or the earth just not being able to sustain us, ect.

Thanks so much.

 

[FSTDT]

Wow... Thanks. That was really great!!! I have a question about Historic.

If the general belief is that it was all symbolic and has already happened, does that mean that people who believe in that don't believe in an endtimes by Gods hand, but that we will live on until we screw it up for ourselves. For example, do they think that Jesus will actually come back and rapture us, judge everyone and once and call it a day, or that we will all get our chance when we die naturally and that the human race will continue on until a major even occurs naturally such as a meteor or the earth just not being able to sustain us, ect.

For the most part, Historicists usually tend to be academics and liberal to moderate scholars (in other words, liberal Christians) and Catholics for the most part. The historicist view is divorced from theology, so I would imagine that it would say nothing about a final judgment, Rapture, Second Coming, or anything of the sort. I would probably imagine that most historicists, if they are believers, probably hold that the end of humanity will come when we destroy ourselves or when the sun gives out, that we are judged immediately after death, and perhaps that there will never be a second coming.

I would assume the theological conclusions of Historicists who happen to be Christians would be identical to that of your average garden-variety Christian who lives day-to-day without thinking about the end times or anything like that. For example, I have a sister who is Catholic, but she is almost 100% ignorant of the Bible, she has never read it, she is unware that the book of Revelation even exists, and she would probably laugh in disbelief by the idea that there are people who actually believe Jesus is coming back to kill us all - yet, she gets along just fine, having her own thoughts about what happens when people die, and she doesnt worry about the Rapture because it was never part of her theology to begin with. Likewise, because the Historicist view divorces the Rapture and end-times from its theology, I could imagine that Historicists would find a lot of common ground with my sister's theology.

I should add something: Because the Historicist interpretation literally means connecting the symbols in Revelation to the historical events of the real world, there is a subset of historicist interpretation that mixes in a little bit from preterist and futurist as well (I dont know if this view has a name except perhaps "conspiracy theorist", but it should not validly be called Historicist). Two examples stand out:
1) For instance, for years people have believed that the harlot of Babylon was a reference to the Pope and the Catholic Church. (Although personally, I cant imagine that that the author of Revelation had these ideas in mind as he wrote, and likewise I cant imagine that the symbols in Revelation are so explicit that there is a justifiable reason to single out the Pope rather than the more plausible Emperor Domitia).

2) There is another historicist view associated with Immanuel Swedenborg that is summed up in this excerpt from Dionysus.org:

Contrary to popular belief, The Last Judgment, as foretold in the book of Revelation, occurred in the year 1757, and under the auspices of Emanuel Swedenborg, a gifted scientist, theologian—and, mystic. All of which has been thoroughly detailed in his work, The Apocalypse Revealed, a verse for verse account to the book of Revelation. (He refers to the date in chapter XX, verse 11.) It's also detailed in his work, The Last Judgment and Babylon Destroyed, as well as in, The True Christian Religion (chapter XIV, articles I-X; reference to the preceding churches is given in articles III and X).

Therefore when the Bible speaks of Christ's second coming, it's actually referring to Emanuel Swedenborg and his work—as Swedenborg claims. And, while it may sound farfetched, it's all there. Much in the way Emanuel is another name for Jesus and means, "God with us" Matthew 1:23 with its familiar ring to John the Baptist: who wasn't really Elija (Elias), yet this was who he signified. Matthew 11:7-14

Both of these views are so non-mainstream that they dont have a label, they take a little bit from the aforementioned historicist and preterist labels. Both of them are (by definition) Historicist positions, but the first example falls easily under partial-preterism and the second position falls under full-preterism.

Thanks so much.

All the best

 

[MidnightBlue]

The historicist view is divorced from theology,

You'd didn't really mean to say that, did you?

Amillenialism is the traditional, standard view. Historicism, as defined on this thread, is entirely compatible with amillenialism.

 

[LittleGirlLost]

You'd didn't really mean to say that, did you?

Amillenialism is the traditional, standard view. Historicism, as defined on this thread, is entirely compatible with amillenialism.

Explain, please... Like your talking to someone who has no idea what your talking about, since that is who you are talking to. (me )

You specified 'as defined in this thread'. Is there another definition?

Thanks

 

[MidnightBlue]

Explain, please... Like your talking to someone who has no idea what your talking about, since that is who you are talking to. (me )

You specified 'as defined in this thread'. Is there another definition?

I don't know of one. Just trying to be clear about my terms.

Amillenialism is the traditional, normative Christian view. It's the official view of Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, and the most prevalent view among mainline Protestants. There's no conflict at all between Amillenialism and the Historic view of Revelation. In my opinion, Revelation is a response to events of its own time, with no bearing on the end of the world.

Premillenialism, as it's been popularized over the last century and a half or so, is a peculiarly Dispensationalist doctrine. Many believe that J. N. Darby, the father of Dispensationalism, was influenced by the visions of a Scottish teenager named Margaret MacDonald. Whether he was or not, it was Darby who began to popularize the view, though its spread was greatly helped by the general climate of religious lunacy in 19th-century America, which gave rise to spiritualism and sceances, Mormonism, Christian Science, Seventh Day Adventism, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and -- most tragically -- fundamentalist dispensationalism.

The prophecy mania in any form is a dangerous delusion. Apart from the fact that it's demonstrably error-prone (its proponents -- from William Miller to Charles Taze Russell to Hal Lindsey have been overenthusiastic and spectacularly wrong in their predictions), it has a lot of negative effects in the real world. To name just few:

1) It makes a lot of people nervous and jumpy; they come home to an unexpectedly empty house, for instance, and worry about having been left behind in the Rapture.

2) It gives people a truly bizarre notion of the Bible and Christianity. Important theological positions are based on taking a verse out of context here, and a phrase out of context there, and pasting them into an almost completely unbiblical theological framework. Then these interpretations take on a life of their own and get confused with the Bible, so that people go around talking about what the Bible says about helicopters, the European Union, Islam, or the New World Order.

3) It makes people make bad political judgments. For instance, one of the main obstacles to peace in the Middle East is the influence of Dispensationalist prophecy enthusiasts in American politics. They act as though any concession at all on the part of Israel flies in the face of God, and seem to look forward to increased conflict and disorder in the area.

4) It makes people poor and irresponsible stewards. From the Millerites who gave away their possessions and donned white robes to wait for the Second Coming to James Watt, Reagan's idiot Secretary of the Interior who asserted that "We don't have to protect the environment, the Second Coming is at hand," prophecy enthusiasts have a disturbing tendency to behave in an irrational and irresponsible manner.

It would be difficult to calculate the amount of suffering that has been caused by the blindness and unreason of those caught in this delusion.

 

[LittleGirlLost]

1) It makes a lot of people nervous and jumpy; they come home to an unexpectedly empty house, for instance, and worry about having been left behind in the Rapture.

LOL... yeah, I've been there!

 

[elman]

I don't understand some of the profile choices for Endtimes, so I was hoping you guys could explain them and why or why not to believe them.

I tried to put this in apologetics, but I can't post there because I don't have 100 posts yet. Anyway, here are the choices given...

Historic

Preterist

Futurist

Amillenialism

Premillenialism

Postmillenialism

Pretribulation

Midtribulation

Posttribulation



Thanks.

I believe the book of Revelation like all scripture teaching us about God is symbolic and meant to teach us about Jesus Christ and spiritual matters. The end of time is coming and we have been in the end times since Jesus walked the earth. John calls this period of time we are in the last hour. No one knows where the end of time will be except God. The only tribulation you need to be concerned about is your separation from God due to your own sin. This causes spiritual death. When you reconnect to God through loving your neighbor, the command of Jesus that sums up all other commands, God will make you spiritually alive again. This is also taught in Ezekiel 18 where it says you can kill your soul by your own sin, but then you can turn to righteousness and live again. If you have come out of the great tribulation, being seperated from God and spiritual life, you have come out of the greatest tribulation there will ever be; and you need fear no other physical tribulations. The 1000 years is symbolic of a long and complete period of time. It is incorrect to think it is a literal thousand years. The messages of Revelation were meant to be applicable to the people of John's time and also applicable to our time but it is not about the physical world or some war in the middle east that is coming. It is about your relationship to Jesus and God and the consequences of being a child of God and not being a child of God.

 

[chava]

That's really neat I didn't know all of that before but I'm still soooo pretribulation.

 

[Libre]

Interesting thread. I am somewhere between Partial-Preterist and Historicist, but checked Historicist in my profile. Both Futurism and Preterism were concocted to take the spotlight off of the papacy, and for that reason I don't trust either.

My problem with the Historists, some of them anyway, is that one major website has taken the view that the New Jerusalem is located in the Bible Belt of the US, which is the same latitude as Israel, or some such thing.

My question: I know of only one other site that is Historicist. Preterists abound, and have very useful information, but with some of the Historicists chasing rainbows, I find very little information. I've lost a lot of my original notes from years ago when my pastor taught his church the Historicist view. Does anyone have any info on new contributions to this view?

While is good that Historicism is the traditional Reformed or Protestant view, there are almost no new writers or books or online resources. I have copies of Woodrow's books, and have a couple of newer ones in my reading list, which is on another computer right now. One, that I own, is I Want to Be Left Behind, by Tim Kirk.

Libre