Process

[bricklayer]

A process is a prescribed sequence of changes.

Human beings are a complex of biological, intellectual, emotional and willful processes.

One function of human intellect is reasoning. Reasoning is necessary for language and literacy. Human beings have no access to language or literacy apart from their capacity to reason.

Reasoning is the ontological sequencing of ideas. It is the organizing of ideas apart from their material, spatial or temporal being.

Human-reasoning is a process; it is a function of the human intellectual process.
Human-reasoning organizes a chronological sequence of ideas, one at a time.
Human-reasoning is a prescribed sequence of changes; it is a process.
God's reasoning is not a process. Human beings are defined by their changes.
God is defined by His perfections.

God's reasoning is not a process. It is a characteristic attributable to God without limit. It is one of His perfections. A process is a prescribed sequence of changes. God cannot change.
God's reasoning organizes eternally present ideas. God's reasoning organizes all ideas all at once. God's reasoning is complete; it is whole. Metaphorically, and in the case of scripture literally, God's reasoning is cover to cover. Man's reasoning is any portion thereof.

Man can only know in part. Man can only know in process. Man can only reason the scriptures, by affect of the Holy Spirit. Man cannot "skip" the reasoning process. Man cannot "let the bible speak for itself" and "not subject it to a reasoning process, as if that were an option. Even a regenerated mind remains in process; it's just a different process. The reasoning process allows man to hear and read the bible. Apart from reasoning, there can be no language or literacy. The claim that one does not reason the scriptures is either an ignorance or an arrogance.

Many times I have heard the reasoning process presented in opposition to the Word of God. I am left to believe that the reasoning process becomes, in the regenerated mind, the very function through which the Holy Spirit renews that mind.

A human being will only ever be able to "let the bible speak for itself without human-reasoning" when that human being has completed the process of sanctification.
Until then, we will know in part, and we will know in process.
Semper Reformanda

 

[twin1954]

OK. Now what? I honestly wonder what any of this intellectual gobbledygook has to do with building up the body of Christ. I am not trying to be mean or confrontational but to a simple mind like mine it seems as though it is an exercise in intelectualism that gives me nothing to hang my hat on. There seems to be no shoe leather in it. How does any of this apply to my understanding and trust of the Person and work of Christ?

Man's reasoning process finds "life principles", "moral obligations" and good advice in the Scriptures. While all of those things are there that is not understanding the Scriptures. Admittedly we do arrive at doctrinal truths through the process of reasoning. But until light is shined on the heart in the face of Jesus Christ by the Spirit all our reasooning is pointless.

Reasoning out doctrinal truths is futile unless it points us to Christ and sends us to Him in faith. Knowledge of things is damning. Knowledge of Him is eternal life. John 17:3.

 

[bsd058]

Why did you start a new thread?

You could have posted this in the other one. It was along the same lines of what we were discussing.

Man can only know in part. Man can only know in process. Man can only reason the scriptures, by affect of the Holy Spirit. Man cannot "skip" the reasoning process. Man cannot "let the bible speak for itself" and "not subject it to a reasoning process, as if that were an option. Even a regenerated mind remains in process; it's just a different process. The reasoning process allows man to hear and read the bible. Apart from reasoning, there can be no language or literacy. The claim that one does not reason the scriptures is either an ignorance or an arrogance.

Many times I have heard the reasoning process presented in opposition to the Word of God. I am left to believe that the reasoning process becomes, in the regenerated mind, the very function through which the Holy Spirit renews that mind.

A human being will only ever be able to "let the bible speak for itself without human-reasoning" when that human being has completed the process of sanctification.
Until then, we will know in part, and we will know in process.
Semper Reformanda

I don't think anyone is suggesting skipping the reasoning process. When I say that the basis for all reason and the reason for reason is found in the Truth of Scripture, I'm not saying you should have blind faith in anything. I'm saying, that without the truths of Scripture already presupposed (and thus already revealed), you do not have a basis to reason in the first place.

Questions I would like you to answer if you have the time and desire to: Why should a person have the propensity to reason if he doesn't first begin with the truths found in Scripture? Is there any reason for it?

 

[bricklayer]

There is no higher purpose for human-reasoning than reasoning the scriptures.
But even the unchanging truth in scripture could not exist apart from reasoning.
Scripture is a created thing. Reason is a Godly attribute.
God's reasoning underpins scripture not the other ways around.
Man's reasoning unveils scripture. Scripture unveils God's reasoning.

 

[bsd058]

There is no higher purpose for human-reasoning than reasoning the scriptures.

I want to make sure I understand you. You are saying that the highest purpose for human to reason is to reason from the Scriptures or to the Scripture?

Whichever one is correct, how do you know this?

But even the unchanging truth in scripture could not exist apart from reasoning.

I agree, but I have a reason to believe this, since I rely on the revelation of God as the reason to reason.

Scripture is a created thing. Reason is a Godly attribute.

While Scripture is a created thing, it is the very word of God. It was the revelation of God within time, thereby making it timely; yet the Truth it reveals about God is, in fact, eternal. Christ was revealed in time, yet he preexisted his incarnation. The Truths of Scripture are not created. They are as eternal as God himself since the very nature of God is truth (just as revealed to us in Scripture). Jesus is the actual Truth revealed. The very representation of the Father. Light from light. Before this, all we had was the analogy of Scripture. When Christ came, God was revealed to us directly.

I'm not saying the Scriptures are eternal. I'm saying that the truths the Scripture give about God are eternal.

God's reasoning underpins scripture not the other ways around.

God's revelation carries the authority of God. God's revelation reveals the ultimate authority, which is Scripture.

Man's reasoning unveils scripture. Scripture unveils God's reasoning.

[/quote]

God's revelation unveils Scripture. You could reason all you want about the Scriptures (while I still insist that you do not have a logical basis to believe that reason is God's attribute) and still end up without truth.

Afterall, God (if you don't start from the Truths found in Scripture) can confuse your ability to understand his Word and you could be getting a completely different message than the one he intended to give to the rest of us. How do you know you are interpreting the Bible accurately? You must have faith in God that he will reveal Himself to you accurately and truthfully in order to be able to reason properly and make sense of anything. Yet, you cannot have a reason to believe this unless you presuppose that God is good, that he does not deceive, that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and other things about Him and the world already revealed to us.

Unless God first reveals Himself, you will do what is "right" in your own eyes. You say that it is right to reason. I ask, how do you know that reasoning is the right thing to do? How do you know that reason is an attribute of God?

Without the revelation of God, there is no basis for what you are teaching.

My basic point is that we must assume the revelation of the God of the Bible in order to give an account for reasoning properly.

 

[bricklayer]

I want to make sure I understand you. You are saying that the highest purpose for human to reason is to reason from the Scriptures or to the Scripture?
Whichever one is correct, how do you know this?
I agree, but I have a reason to believe this, since I rely on the revelation of God as the reason to reason.
While Scripture is a created thing, it is the very word of God. It was the revelation of God within time, thereby making it timely; yet the Truth it reveals about God is, in fact, eternal. Christ was revealed in time, yet he preexisted his incarnation. The Truths of Scripture are not created. They are as eternal as God himself since the very nature of God is truth (just as revealed to us in Scripture). Jesus is the actual Truth revealed. The very representation of the Father. Light from light. Before this, all we had was the analogy of Scripture. When Christ came, God was revealed to us directly.
I'm not saying the Scriptures are eternal. I'm saying that the truths the Scripture give about God are eternal.
God's revelation carries the authority of God. God's revelation reveals the ultimate authority, which is Scripture.
God's revelation unveils Scripture. You could reason all you want about the Scriptures (while I still insist that you do not have a logical basis to believe that reason is God's attribute) and still end up without truth.
Afterall, God (if you don't start from the Truths found in Scripture) can confuse your ability to understand his Word and you could be getting a completely different message than the one he intended to give to the rest of us. How do you know you are interpreting the Bible accurately? You must have faith in God that he will reveal Himself to you accurately and truthfully in order to be able to reason properly and make sense of anything. Yet, you cannot have a reason to believe this unless you presuppose that God is good, that he does not deceive, that He is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and other things about Him and the world already revealed to us.
Unless God first reveals Himself, you will do what is "right" in your own eyes. You say that it is right to reason. I ask, how do you know that reasoning is the right thing to do? How do you know that reason is an attribute of God?
Without the revelation of God, there is no basis for what you are teaching.
My basic point is that we must assume the revelation of the God of the Bible in order to give an account for reasoning properly.

God's revelation is affected by the Holy Spirit through the human-reasoning process, the "one idea at a time" process.
God's reasoning organizes all ideas all at once.

We do not reason like God, all ideas all at once. Revelation does not skip the human-reasoning process.
Sanctification is a process. Revelation is a process. Reason is a Godly attribute.

The fact that we reason one idea at a time does not stand in opposition to the fact that God does not.

As to the bible, God's reasoning is cover to cover; man's reasoning is any portion thereof.