Problems within the Methodist Church

[countrymousenc]

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

First of all, they were here first.

Who was?

They want to adhere to the beliefs stated in the church doctrine that the church has held since inception.

Wrong. No one even knew what a homosexual was until the late 19th and early 20th centuries until the term was used by Freud and Kraft-Ebbing. So there's no way you can prove anti-gay bigotry predated that. Heck, before they codified it, homosexuals didn't even know what a homosexual was.

Why should they be the ones to leave because you want to change beliefs?

Their choice, or mine.

Second, Methodists and Baptists aren't even related. They stem from two seperate reformations and have virtually no similarities (aside from not being Catholic.) Baptists are historically Calvinist and Methodists historically Anglican. Methodists have more in common doctrinally with Episcopals, and probably even Roman Catholics, than they do with Baptists. You can't divide denominations into "liberal" and "conservative." They are religious groups, not political parties or social activists.

Not the issue, but it appears you got mixed up by the other poor fellow's misspeaking.

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

When Michelangelo was asked how he was able to sculpt The David, he answered that 'Creating The David was easy - all I had to do was remove all that was not the David from the stone.'

Very well said, and such a beuatiful metaphor.

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

First, you equate believing that homosexual behavior is immoral with bigotry and hatred. News flash: I do not hate homosexual people. It is not necessary to hate practicing homosexual people in order to believe that they should not be ordained as clergy.

No, but it does make one bigoted against them, whether or not one "hates" them.

In fact, I believe it is dangerously unloving to tell them (especially since before the 20th century, the Church has always called their behavior a sin), that their behavior is okay with God.

Actually your claim "it's always been thus" is false; no one even knew what homosexuality was till about 100 years ago.

Second, your "ever-improving understanding" smacks, to me, of interpretational revisionism.

Every time somebody reads a verse, "interpersonal revisionism" is occurring.

This is what has to inevitably happen when we cut ties to Holy Tradition because we think we know better than the Church Fathers.

No one is doing that. Anyone who thinks we can and will do exactly what they would have us do is not living in reality, though.

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

My question is where is God in all of this? Meaning a bigger concern among methodists ought to be what God thinks and not what people think. Is the methodist church a dead church or a living church?

My belief is God smiles upon his servants who have decided a reason to exclude another servant from ministry is wrong.

 

[praying]

No, but our understanding of him does; his true nature is constantly being revealed.

Thank goodness for that!!

 

[countrymousenc]

 

[Yitzchak]

My belief is God smiles upon his servants who have decided a reason to exclude another servant from ministry is wrong.

" He that is not a son of Peace is not a son of God. All other sins destroy the Church consequently; but Division and Seperation demolish it directly... Many Doctrinal differences must be tolerated in a Church: And why? but for Unitie and Peace? Therefore Disunion and Seperation is utterly intolerable."
Richard Baxter, The Saints' Everlasting Rest, 1650

This is a quote from a book on The church of England, church history. In the late 1940's and early 1950's an ecumenical push was inspired by a sermon by the Arch Bishop of Canterbury, Geoffrey Fisher. This push for ecumenism involved the methodist church which of course came out fo the church of England (Anglican). I am sure that the Lord smiles down on all who work for unity between people, espeacially among the church.

 

[Momzilla]

LBZ,

To say that "no one knew what homosexuality was 100 years ago" is just silly. The term might not have been coined yet, but certainly homosexuality both existed and was known to exist.

 

[ufonium2]

LBZ,

To say that "no one knew what homosexuality was 100 years ago" is just silly. The term might not have been coined yet, but certainly homosexuality both existed and was known to exist.

Yup, and it is precisely because there was no name for homosexuality that the Bible never says the word. Had there been a word for "sexual acts with someone of the same sex" in ancient languages, we wouldn't be having these arguments now. In fact, the Bible never comes out and says "don't be a pedophile" but nobody is arguing that because the Bible never says "pedophile" that it is somehow Biblical to molest children. The authors of the Bible used the words they had, and there were no words for these acts in those languages at that time.

And LBZ, how is it that although homosexuality didn't exist until 1900, we apparently know that Michaelangelo was homosexual? How do we know that if he didn't know it himself?

 

[Yitzchak]

The parable of the wheat and the tares comes to my mind when thinking of this issue the methodists are dealing with. There is a time to compromise on pulling out tares.

 

[PatrickM]

Yup, and it is precisely because there was no name for homosexuality that the Bible never says the word. Had there been a word for "sexual acts with someone of the same sex" in ancient languages, we wouldn't be having these arguments now. In fact, the Bible never comes out and says "don't be a pedophile" but nobody is arguing that because the Bible never says "pedophile" that it is somehow Biblical to molest children. The authors of the Bible used the words they had, and there were no words for these acts in those languages at that time.

As a matter of fact, there wasn't even the English language 2000 years ago! But there sure was a word for this act, "men lying with men in a bed belonging to marriage" was coined by Paul, arsenokoites.

And LBZ, how is it that although homosexuality didn't exist until 1900, we apparently know that Michaelangelo was homosexual? How do we know that if he didn't know it himself?

Oops!

 

[Dark_Lite]

Ah but there were the beginnings of it though.. (the English language)

In the early middle ages (500-1000) there was Old English. Now THAT language is one to learn. Forget this Latin stuff.

 

[LuxPerpetua]

Butting in

I just thought I'd add that in the Middle Ages, there were laws against homosexuality. Homosexuality was called buggery and it was a capital offense. So, this is proof that homosexuality was well-known before this century.

Butting out now

 

[seebs]

The problem here is a shift in terminology. When LBZ says "we didn't know about homosexuality", she's referring to the modern theory that a small percentage of people have an apparently inborn attraction to members of the same sex. What everyone else is pointing at is rules about homosexual activity, not orientation; the idea that there could be an orientation had not occurred to anyone yet. There were vague thoughts in that direction, but no one really formalized it or studied it.

 

[Yitzchak]

Butting in

I just thought I'd add that in the Middle Ages, there were laws against homosexuality. Homosexuality was called buggery and it was a capital offense. So, this is proof that homosexuality was well-known before this century.

Butting out now

It is an exceedingly good idea to have the facts straight no matter what our position is on something. Thank you for the information. I am 100% ignorant of the history of laws against homosexuality.

 

[Plan 9]

The parable of the wheat and the tares comes to my mind when thinking of this issue the methodists are dealing with. There is a time to compromise on pulling out tares.

If the tares represent sinful members, then I would be pulled along with the rest; I both commit sins and omit doing what is right, which is also sin. God has been merciful to me when we both know I don't deserve it. When I first converted, my new pastor said that the church is a hospital, a metaphor I've never forgotten.