Problems within the Methodist Church

[CryptoKnight]

Thanks for a thoughtful post. As a liberal UMCer I've often thought our more conservative UMs would probably feel better if they turned Baptist.

I can see that. Surely, there are those of a more fundamentalist lean in my congregation. Problem is, though I'm conservative, I'm *far* from fundamentalist! I'm conservative in that I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and is infallible. However, I concede that we lack so much understanding of what it says that we cannot know certain truths (though, thankfully, the "required truths" are plain to see).

Therefore, what do you do with a self-proclaimed conservative-yet-old-earth Christian? ;-)

Along these lines, I'm even willing to investigate the use of the word "abomination" as it pertains to homosexuality. I can see a good argument for it meaning "ritually unclean", rather than the "abhorrent" we typically associate with "abomination" in modern times.

Still...I have to question whether a priest should be willfully partaking in "ritualistically unclean" behaviour. Then, of course, I'd have to slap his hand when he eats shellfish...

*sigh*, back to the books.

 

[countrymousenc]

Quote:
Originally Posted by: La Bonita Zorilla

As a liberal UMCer I've often thought our more conservative UMs would probably feel better if they turned Baptist.

 

[Knight]

You are proposing that conservative UMs move out to churches that deny the sacramental nature of Holy Communion and Baptism, who are non-creedal, and who will not baptize their infant children.

Take it easy or you're going to branch this thread off in a whole lot of different directions.

 

[countrymousenc]

To branch off this thread is not my intent. As one who has very recently left the UMC and whose family members are still United Methodist, I find the callousness of proposing that conservative UMs should casually give up beliefs that have always been held dear in Methodism offensive. I am not bashing Baptists - I was originally Southern Baptist, and still have Baptist friends who would equally object, if the tables were turned, at the suggestion that they might be more comfortable in paedobapist, creedal, and sacramental churches.

 

[Knight]

I know.
Your original post seemed somewhat hostile and I wanted to make sure. To give you a chance to clarify.

 

[countrymousenc]

I know.
Your original post seemed somewhat hostile and I wanted to make sure. To give you a chance to clarify.

Hello, Knight:

I would be dishonest if I didn't admit that, in the light of what has happened and things that have been said, I am feeling just a wee tad hostile!

 

[Knight]

Hello, Knight:

I would be dishonest if I didn't admit that, in the light of what has happened and things that have been said, I am feeling just a wee tad hostile!

That is understandable. Let's just make sure that's directed the right way.

I'm not happy with it myself.

 

[ufonium2]

Thanks for a thoughtful post. As a liberal UMCer I've often thought our more conservative UMs would probably feel better if they turned Baptist.

First of all, they were here first. They want to adhere to the beliefs stated in the church doctrine that the church has held since inception. Why should they be the ones to leave because you want to change beliefs?

Second, Methodists and Baptists aren't even related. They stem from two seperate reformations and have virtually no similarities (aside from not being Catholic.) Baptists are historically Calvinist and Methodists historically Anglican. Methodists have more in common doctrinally with Episcopals, and probably even Roman Catholics, than they do with Baptists. You can't divide denominations into "liberal" and "conservative." They are religious groups, not political parties or social activists.

 

[Origen]

No [God does not change], but our understanding of him does; his true nature is constantly being revealed.

So, do you think that God reveals Himself in ways that contradict His earlier revelations of Himself? If so, then, He changes. So, then, we've misunderstood something else in the Bible.

When Michelangelo was asked how he was able to sculpt The David, he answered that 'Creating The David was easy - all I had to do was remove all that was not the David from the stone.'

 

[Plan 9]

Well this thread redeems the entire board! Over in Current Events they are rejoicing that the lesbian wasn't kicked out of the ministry.

I thought the whole world had gone apostate over night!

I don't feel one bit betrayed by my church, and I am no apostate. When people say the our church has gone against its discipline, they don't quote everything our discipline says on the subject.
Those of you who are United Methodist and feel so betrayed had your chance to vote, as did we all.
The General Conference is meeting late next month, and this subject is on the agenda. Any United Methodists who fervently disgaree with what they decide have numerous Methodist denominations to choose from; no one is forced to belong to a particular denomination.

 

[countrymousenc]

Our ever-improving understand of God's self-revelation in Holy Scripture is similar to Michelangelo's creation of The David whenever we allow to fall away from that revelation our own bits of ignorance and hatred.

 

[Yitzchak]

I don't feel one bit betrayed by my church, and I am no apostate. When people say the our church has gone against its discipline, they don't quote everything our discipline says on the subject.
Those of you who are United Methodist and feel so betrayed had your chance to vote, as did we all.
The General Conference is meeting late next month, and this subject is on the agenda. Any United Methodists who fervently disgaree with what they decide have numerous Methodist denominations to choose from; no one is forced to belong to a particular denomination.

I agree. Ultimately, each person has a chance to decide for themselves how to conduct themselves. I do feel sorry for the immature christians who are hurt by all of this and do not have the maturity to handle it well.

 

[Yitzchak]

Church institutions tend to die after a while. We could speculate as to the causes but historically churches don't maintain their original vision forever. My opinion is that God allows this because he doesn't want us to make an idol out of our church. God is a living God who wants a current relationship with us. My question is where is God in all of this? Meaning a bigger concern among methodists ought to be what God thinks and not what people think. Is the methodist church a dead church or a living church?

Myself, I prefer to seek the Lord today and not go on someone else's experience , whether living or dead.

 

[countrymousenc]

 

[Plan 9]

Thanks for a thoughtful post. As a liberal UMCer I've often thought our more conservative UMs would probably feel better if they turned Baptist. I mention occasionally in my journal here on CF about problems we have with a couple who are fundamentalists in our church, cryptically, as I don't want this to attract the attention of anyone who would invade their privacy, but suffice it to say they are our bete noire (I'm not a cultured as I'd like to be but I believe that's French for a personal pain in the you-know-where.) Now our pastor is a peacemaker and he has shared with us some things maybe he shouldn't have about their personal lives (and probably ours as well, which bothers me less because we have nothing to hide) and I see his point. I actually pray prayers of thanks for them because of the challenging they offer. I believe having them around has made us better Christians. I wish they'd change, but, surely they wish the same about us. As always the challenge is to get along.

One wag said the nation needs both liberals and conservatives-using the metaphor of the "Ship of State" the liberals are the sails and the conservatives are the anchors. Can the church need both any less? I've seen churches that veer too far off course either way and wreck.

Actualy, I think that some might be happier as Free Methodists than as Baptists, but Im pleased to read your last paragraph, since I'm one conservative United Methodist who isn't going anywhere.

 

[Plan 9]

I agree. Ultimately, each person has a chance to decide for themselves how to conduct themselves. I do feel sorry for the immature christians who are hurt by all of this and do not have the maturity to handle it well.

Yes; ultimately, it is always between the individual and God. We all must act according to our own consciences.
In the UMC, for the most part, congregations choose their own ministers, and need not renew the contracts of those they are unhappy with for any reason. The same is true of our ministers, who are not obliged to maintain their contracts. In all my years as a United Methodist, I have only seen a bishop intervene once, and I know why he did, although other United Methodists may not have understood because they didn't ask around. No one congregation need have a minister it doesn't want for long. Our local churches are not set up to revolve around their ministers, because no one recognized the power of the pulpit more than John Wesley, and that's why the bishop of my conference intervened once.

I am equally sorry for those members of my church who feel hurt by this, but the UMC has weathered worse controversies, and however ignored or passed-over our more conservative members may feel, that's simply not true.

I feel that threads like this one do more harm than good; some people participating are already more upset than they were before they posted here.

Peace to all posting here. Be of good cheer; God will help all of us through this difficult time.

 

[Knight]

Baptists are historically Calvinist and Methodists historically Anglican.

I think you mean Arminian (sp?).

BTW, I know many Baptists who are not Calvinists.

 

[ufonium2]

I think you mean Arminian (sp?).

BTW, I know many Baptists who are not Calvinists.

Notice I said "historically." The Methodist church is an offshoot of the Anglican church, its founder was an ordained Anglican. The Baptist church, if you trace it back to England, was originally Calvinist. I never said "all Baptists are Calvinists." I was pointing out that Baptists aren't just conservative Methodists, that there are many doctrinal and historical differences.

 

[Plan 9]

Notice I said "historically." The Methodist church is an offshoot of the Anglican church, its founder was an ordained Anglican. The Baptist church, if you trace it back to England, was originally Calvinist. I never said "all Baptists are Calvinists." I was pointing out that Baptists aren't just conservative Methodists, that there are many doctrinal and historical differences.

Agreed.

 

[Origen]