Problems within the Methodist Church

[CryptoKnight]

As an apparently conservative Methodist, I truly feel that the UMC has failed me by pardoning the ordained homosexual minister, Ms. Dammann. While I expected this liberal denomination to pardon her, I expected there to be a representation of the Book of Discipline within the vote to some degree. I believe there were 13 "jurors" and 9 votes were needed to convict.

11 votes were for a pardon, and two were undecided. There were no votes siding with the Book of Discipline (i.e. for conviction). (if you aren't familiar with the issue, but it is of concern to you from either side, please read up on it before responding). Things to consider:

The Bible specifically identifies homosexuality as "an abomination".
The UMC Book of Discipline clearly states that homosexuality is "incompatible with Christian teaching."
The "prosecuting clergy", Rev. James C. Finkbeiner, made a statement afterwards that "I'm glad I lost, on a personal basis." Clearly this was not the man to represent the Methodist Book of Discipline as a prosecutor in a church trial.

Before you jump on my case, realize that the primary problem I have is that the church did not adhere to its own rules. I understand that "abomination" can mean "ritually unclean" and pertain only to Jews. Fine, but then we need to change our Book of Discipline. As it stands, a ruling was made in direct contrast to the BoD.

If the Protestant churches wonder why they are losing members, it's because they are losing their souls. Hard(er) line churches like the Catholic and Mormon churches gain members by standing their ground, while Protestant churches like the Methodists and Episcopalians are tripping over themselves trying to please anyone.

2..4..6..8..why are they going a-pos-tate?

(EDIT: as a side note, while I've yet to read notes on the decision, I have a feeling it was a technicality. The BoD prohibits ORDAINING practicing, self-avowed homosexuals. When Ms. Dammann was ordained, she was not self-avowed (by the UMC's definition). The BoD doesn't say anything about an ordained minister "coming out", as she did.)

 

[seebs]

I know other methodists who were worried that the church would "fail them" by deciding the other way.

Welcome to ongoing disputes and division within the church. This will be going on for some time. We've come out pretty well out of some of them, and pretty badly out of others.

Keep in mind that, down in the trenches as we are, we may well be blind to God's leading for us.

 

[Bro. Gabriel]

Truly a sad decision for a "Church" to make. I'd encourage you to seek God's will and if He might be leading you to a different Church since the Holy Spirit is obviously convicting you about this issue.

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

As an apparently conservative Methodist, I truly feel that the UMC has failed me by pardoning the ordained homosexual minister, Ms. Dammann.

As it stands, a ruling was made in direct contrast to the BoD.

When change occurs in institutions, it's often messy.

If the Protestant churches wonder why they are losing members, it's because they are losing their souls. Hard(er) line churches like the Catholic and Mormon churches gain members by standing their ground, while Protestant churches like the Methodists and Episcopalians are tripping over themselves trying to please anyone.

That's the party line from such as the Southern Baptists and various non-denominational bodies, but, it's not exactly accurate. The number of members of Mainline liberal Protestant Churches leaving to go to more conservative churches is actually small. Most who are leaving are just becoming unchurched; or, more accurately, older members are dying off and not being replaced. In the 19th Century it was a social norm to belong to a church though not necessarily in the West, the region of the U.S. that has always had and still does the highest number of unchurched. So many joined whatever Protestant church was least intrusive. These days religion is often considered a private matter so more people feel comfortable with being unchurched.

And don't for a minute mistake this and the Episcopals' action naming a gay Bishop as "tripping over themselves trying to please anyone". It actually took great courage and much prayerful consideration to make these bold descisions to advance the inclusiveness of Christ knowing it would offend so many.

2..4..6..8..why are they going a-pos-tate?

Disagreement over human sexuality and relationships is not apostacy.

In applying Wesley's maxim "In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things, charity" this is clearly a "non-essential".

(EDIT: as a side note, while I've yet to read notes on the decision, I have a feeling it was a technicality. The BoD prohibits ORDAINING practicing, self-avowed homosexuals. When Ms. Dammann was ordained, she was not self-avowed (by the UMC's definition). The BoD doesn't say anything about an ordained minister "coming out", as she did.)

That's actually a very good legal argument, though it's by no means clear this was the reasoning of the jurors.

In the Yahoo story on this, it stated a prayer service was led by the minister of the church at which the trial took place after the trial, and he invited all to voice their thoughts. One woman said "I pray for our church, for those who will rejoice and for those who will gnash their teeth and wail." That was a very wise woman.

 

[dsdumpling]

I think all churches have their "dirty little secrets". I thank God that my little Methodist church is so far away from the orthodoxy of the "main stream" church.

 

[OnederWoman]

It is sad. I grew up UMC and it is heartbreaking to me to see this happening. Most of my family is UM... my Mother just became a UM pastor last year. I haven't gone to the UMC for years and this is yet another reason I most likely will never return (dh and I consider ourselvees non-denom, currently attending a SBC).

Another sad thing is that while some (I would hope many) may leave the UMC or demand a split or something... many will, out of tradition, stay even though they don't agree with what's going on (like my family whos attitude is "we've always been Methodist and we're going to remain Methodist"... this is where my Grandparents are at, who are Bible believing Christians... I think in their younger days they may have made a fuss, but they're all in their 80's and probably think they're too old to make a big change like that).

 

[kdet]

My husband has attended a Methodist church his entire life until his work has caused us to move around so much. We have seen this coming for awhile now and it is one reason we have looked elsewhere for our spiritual needs.
This was the final straw for him. We were talking this over yesterday and cannot help but wonder how a church can go against it's own church discipline this way?
God's word speaks of a great falling away..I believe we are seeing this in our churches today.

 

[countrymousenc]

 

[Eusebios]

I grew up in the UMC and have many fond memories from MYF. Our minister, The Rev. Paul Offenheiser, was one of the last of the "Old School" UMC preachers, and I loved him dearly. The man who followed him did not sit well with many, myself included and so I left to go on the oddysey that has brought to to where I now am.
My prayers go out to those in the UMC who are now faced with very difficult decisions.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.

 

[belladotcom]

Hey,

I am not from a UMC but from a FMC (Free Methodist Church) and I do understand you in your points. One thing that I would like to make clear first is that I personally am AGAINST the homosexuallity in churchs over the U.S and the world. But most of all, is that it is biblical and it is what the bible says it is. People tend to twist around the words of the bible to fit their own interests (which let's mention it's also a sin).
Now, the UMC made a TERRIBLE choice when took that step towards satan's door, and I will put my word here in the name of Jesus Christ, that this 'little' step it's going to bring many, MANY conflicts within the church.
The only thing we can pray for now is that the leaders of UMC doesn't make the same mistake of the ancient minister that were leading their churchs based on political benefits.
That is my understanding!

In the Love of Christ,
Bella​

 

[repentandbelieve]

In the eyes of God is a homosexual minister any less qualified to preach than those ministers who practice adultery or fornication?.

 

[eldermike]

That's the party line from such as the Southern Baptists and various non-denominational bodies, but, it's not exactly accurate. The number of members of Mainline liberal Protestant Churches leaving to go to more conservative churches is actually small. Most who are leaving are just becoming unchurched; or, more accurately, older members are dying off and not being replaced.

Got supporting data on this?

 

[CryptoKnight]

Thanks for all the comments. I think, having chosen Methodism as my way to celebrate Christianity, and having deliberately chosen a Methodist congregation, I must apply Wesley's maxim

"In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things, charity" this is clearly a "non-essential".

however painful that may be. Though I fear for the UMC leaders, I think it best for me to continue to work from within the church, rather than to flee it. Our congretation is on the conservative-yet-progressive side (we have a divorced pastor and a few homosexual members) and we stick pretty much to the Book of Discipline, so this deviation is hard.

Maybe the Episcopals and Methodists will both split, and rejoin as two different denominations??? Naw...

 

[P_G]

In the eyes of God is a homosexual minister any less qualified to preach than those ministers who practice adultery or fornication?.

Gahhhhhhhh

I am so dying over this!

No your right those people are not appropriate to minister either. And they are openly in sin. Publicly, unrepentatently flaunting their sin in everyones face, tell me Oh PLEASE tell me some one how they step onto the pulpit and proclain a gospel of righteousness????????

What part of this don't we understand in today's world?

*** 1:6 If anyone is blameless, husband of one wife, having faithful children, not in accusation of loose behavior, or disobedient,
*** 1:7 (for the overseer must be blameless as a steward of God), not self-pleasing, not prone to anger, not given to wine, not a quarreler, not greedy of ill gain;
*** 1:8 but hospitable, a lover of good, discreet, just, holy, temperate,


I am sorry but this just disgusts me all of it does.
Shame on the church shame on us all!


Blessings

Pastor George

 

[CryptoKnight]

In the eyes of God is a homosexual minister any less qualified to preach than those ministers who practice adultery or fornication?.

No, but let's clear up the point. In the eyes of God, one who is *committed* to sin (i.e. sins, is not repentent, and intends to sin again) is "less qualified" than one who is repentent, even if the repentent one occasionally "falls off the wagon."

Would I have a problem with a homosexual pastor who followed the Word (and the Discipline) and was repentent towards his/her homosexual behaviour? No. I could accept this, since the world-view espoused by most Christian churches is that homosexuality is a sin.

Heck, I could even have a pastor who had murdered, so long as they were repentant. One who flaunts their sin, however, I have a problem with. We all were born with some "-ism" that we must resist, whether it's homosexuality, tendencies towards violence, dispensations to addiction, or whatever. Some are "victimless" and some are not. All are to be resisted in coming closer to our Lord. (IMHO).

 

[nyj]

In the eyes of God is a homosexual minister any less qualified to preach than those ministers who practice adultery or fornication?.

IMNSHO, anyone who openly, and without repentance, wallows in sin, is unfit to minister to those who need guidance in the Lord. So, a homosexual, adulterous or fornicating minister is an oxymoron. You cannot preach God's word while directly contradicting it. Matthew 12:30.

 

[Knight]

Heck, I could even have a pastor who had murdered, so long as they were repentant. One who flaunts their sin, however, I have a problem with. We all were born with some "-ism" that we must resist, whether it's homosexuality, tendencies towards violence, dispensations to addiction, or whatever. Some are "victimless" and some are not. All are to be resisted in coming closer to our Lord. (IMHO).

I cannot recall the name but there's a pastor in FL who was on death row for murder (before he was a Christian).
Long story short:
He repented and placed faith in Christ
Was granted clemency
Became a pastor.

 

[eldermike]

1TI 3:1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

Notice that these requirments are based on fitness for Spirtual warfare. If outsiders can eaisly bring charges on the lifestyle of a pastor they are not going to win the spirtual battles, even if they win the worlds battles.

The Bibles standards for leaderhship within the church is not based on the worlds standards. The leader of a flock will face spirtual battles.

 

[P_G]

Notice that these requirments are based on fitness for Spirtual warfare. If outsiders can eaisly bring charges on the lifestyle of a pastor they are not going to win the spirtual battles, even if they win the worlds battles.

The Bibles standards for leaderhship within the church is not based on the worlds standards. The leader of a flock will face spirtual battles.

Mike:

I don't see this as outsiders bringing questions regarding the leadership of the pastor

But rather the church as a whole as being represented by the eclisastical judiciary body. This would fall right in line with Matthew 18.

I think if anything it is the world that is trying to demand that the church change to what is currently politically correct as opposed to what is biblically correct.


Blessings

Pastor George

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

People tend to twist around the words of the bible to fit their own interests (which let's mention it's also a sin).

the UMC made a TERRIBLE choice when took that step towards satan's door

That is certainly an unfortunate characterization. Again, who is to say the opposite is not true? By affirming the inclusion of Christ to Rev. Dammann the UMC has actually taken a step toward Christ's love rather than toward Satan's hate.