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Problems within the Methodist Church

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PeterPaul

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La Bonita Zorilla said:
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It's obvious from the language it's an anachronism.


Not to take you out of context. But surely who is to judge what is anachronistic in the Bible and what is not? Surely then, if you can not propose what is or isn't exclusively anachronistic you are being a relativist.

You regard the UMC doctrine on homosexuality to be an anachronism. Thus I'm sure you dismiss most of Christianity's view on the topic as well.

So, my question to you is this: what other topics in the Bible form part of this anachronism?
 
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Momzilla

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Yitzchak said:
The vagueness is in the interpretation and not in the writing of it.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. Written language, particularly statutes or codes of discipline, is either vague or it is not. In legal terms (I am a lawyer, after all), a criminal statute is void for vagueness when it fails to provide a reasonable person with notice of what conduct is prohibited.

The minister's counsel argued that she should not be convicted because the language of the relevant portion of the Book of Discipline was vague. LBZ has endorsed that claim, and I'm asking for the argumentative support for it. Because, frankly, the language is not vague to my eyes.
 
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marathoner

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The mainline protestant churches are in rapid decline precisely because they are spreading apostacy. I believe this is the Holy Spirit at work. The Lord does not want heretical churches to grow. Although I am not Methodist I would consider either leaving that church or withholding all money to the denomination concentrating on the local church. In my opinion the United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church will likely follow the Episcopalians into heresy on the issue of homosexuality. Let us pray that these denominations reverse this sad and destructive trend.
 
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Yitzchak

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marathoner said:
The mainline protestant churches are in rapid decline precisely because they are spreading apostacy. I believe this is the Holy Spirit at work. The Lord does not want heretical churches to grow. Although I am not Methodist I would consider either leaving that church or withholding all money to the denomination concentrating on the local church. In my opinion the United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church will likely follow the Episcopalians into heresy on the issue of homosexuality. Let us pray that these denominations reverse this sad and destructive trend.
I agree that we have bigger concerns than just this particular issue when it comes to the state of the Church. We all need to be praying.
 
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Yitzchak

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PeterPaul said:
Actually marathoner wasn't saying this issue was "just a particular" one and that we have bigger concerns, rather that this issue is the big concern for "the state of the Church".
I was giving the benefit of the doubt that his comments were directed out of concern for the welfare fo the Church. I think we can all agree as christians that the church is far from perfect and in need of prayer. We may disagree on specifics but we can agree that a strong church which is pleasing to God in every area would be ideal.
 
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La Bonita Zorilla

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PeterPaul said:
Not to take you out of context. But surely who is to judge what is anachronistic in the Bible and what is not? Surely then, if you can not propose what is or isn't exclusively anachronistic you are being a relativist.

You regard the UMC doctrine on homosexuality to be an anachronism. Thus I'm sure you dismiss most of Christianity's view on the topic as well.

So, my question to you is this: what other topics in the Bible form part of this anachronism?
You are misinterpreting what I said. I referred to vagueness and anachronism of the passage from the United Methodist Book of Discipline, not the Bible. Be careful about making assumptions.
 
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La Bonita Zorilla

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Momzilla said:
I'm sorry, but I disagree. Written language, particularly statutes or codes of discipline, is either vague or it is not. In legal terms (I am a lawyer, after all), a criminal statute is void for vagueness when it fails to provide a reasonable person with notice of what conduct is prohibited.

The minister's counsel argued that she should not be convicted because the language of the relevant portion of the Book of Discipline was vague. LBZ has endorsed that claim, and I'm asking for the argumentative support for it. Because, frankly, the language is not vague to my eyes.
As a lawyer, you ought to know in part that Roe v. Wade, Eisenstadt v. Baird, Griswold v. Connecticut, Lawrence v. Texas and so many other civil rights cases were instances of state laws being overturned due to "vagueness" in part. No doubt many other attorneys (Henry Wade, for one) demurred "Don't look a bit vague to me" but they still lost.
 
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La Bonita Zorilla

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marathoner said:
The mainline protestant churches are in rapid decline precisely because they are spreading apostacy. I believe this is the Holy Spirit at work. The Lord does not want heretical churches to grow. Although I am not Methodist I would consider either leaving that church or withholding all money to the denomination concentrating on the local church. In my opinion the United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church will likely follow the Episcopalians into heresy on the issue of homosexuality. Let us pray that these denominations reverse this sad and destructive trend.
Variation of policy on issues of this nature is not in any sense either heresy or apostacy.
 
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Momzilla

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LBZ, not one of the cases you cite involved a criminal statute being voided on the grounds that it was vague. Rather, they involved the invalidation of statutes on the basis that the prohibition in question--abortion, birth control, homosexual sex--violated the "right to privacy"--which the Supreme Court has held exists in some unspecified part of the Bill of Rights. See the cites below.

Even if those cases did involve vagueness, you still haven't explained how the Book of Discipline is vague.

In the future, kindly refrain from telling me what I "ought to know" as a lawyer unless you are darn sure that I am wrong.

Roe v. Wade Held: State criminal abortion laws, like those involved here, that except from criminality only a life-saving procedure on the mother's behalf without regard to the stage of her pregnancy and other interests involved violate the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which protects against state action the right to privacy, including a woman's qualified right to terminate her pregnancy.

Eisenstadt v. Baird Invalidated Mass. law prohibiting provision of contraceptive items to unmarried persons. Held: By providing dissimilar treatment for married and unmarried persons who are similarly situated, the statute violates the Equal Protection Clause or the Fourteenth Amendment.

Griswold v. Connecticut Held: Connecticut law forbidding use of contraceptives unconstitutionally intrudes upon the right of marital privacy.

Lawrence v. Texas Invalidated Texas sodomy statute on the basis that it furthers no legitimate state interest which can justify its intrusion into the individual's personal and private life.
 
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PeterPaul

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La Bonita Zorilla said:
You are misinterpreting what I said. I referred to vagueness and anachronism of the passage from the United Methodist Book of Discipline, not the Bible. Be careful about making assumptions.

I did not make an assumption. I suppose the best way to illustrate your point is to make a side by side comparison of what the Book says and where you see the ambiguity. Would that be fair enough?
 
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La Bonita Zorilla

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PeterPaul said:
I did not make an assumption. I suppose the best way to illustrate your point is to make a side by side comparison of what the Book says and where you see the ambiguity. Would that be fair enough?
Sorry, I am not understanding what you want.

When you jump to a conclusion about what another person's position is on issues, as you did, it is to make an assumption.
 
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La Bonita Zorilla

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Momzilla said:
LBZ, not one of the cases you cite involved a criminal statute being voided on the grounds that it was vague. Rather, they involved the invalidation of statutes on the basis that the prohibition in question--abortion, birth control, homosexual sex--violated the "right to privacy"--which the Supreme Court has held exists in some unspecified part of the Bill of Rights. See the cites below.

Even if those cases did involve vagueness, you still haven't explained how the Book of Discipline is vague.
I believe I have. If you are unsatisfied, I can do nothing to alleviate that.

In the future, kindly refrain from telling me what I "ought to know" as a lawyer unless you are darn sure that I am wrong.
Roe v. Wade Held: State criminal abortion laws, like those involved here, that except from criminality only a life-saving procedure on the mother's behalf without regard to the stage of her pregnancy and other interests involved violate the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which protects against state action the right to privacy, including a woman's qualified right to terminate her pregnancy.

Eisenstadt v. Baird Invalidated Mass. law prohibiting provision of contraceptive items to unmarried persons. Held: By providing dissimilar treatment for married and unmarried persons who are similarly situated, the statute violates the Equal Protection Clause or the Fourteenth Amendment.

Griswold v. Connecticut Held: Connecticut law forbidding use of contraceptives unconstitutionally intrudes upon the right of marital privacy.

Lawrence v. Texas Invalidated Texas sodomy statute on the basis that it furthers no legitimate state interest which can justify its intrusion into the individual's personal and private life.
Thanks for the canned briefs. If I can reproduce that, it'll provide an excellent resource for my students on how recent the lack of freedom in this country was so much worse than now.
 
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wvmtnkid

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La Bonita Zorilla said:
So do I. When I said

"Attempted enforcement of orthodoxy is nothing but phariseeism, and not a good practice for Christians to engage in."

It referred to demanding political correctness of fellow Christians and clergy, which is something quite different from "using the Bible as practical guidelines for day to day living as a Christian".
Bowing to political correctness is exactly what the UMC is doing by disregarding the Book of Discipline by saying that it is vague on the issue.
 
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wvmtnkid

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marathoner said:
The mainline protestant churches are in rapid decline precisely because they are spreading apostacy. I believe this is the Holy Spirit at work. The Lord does not want heretical churches to grow. Although I am not Methodist I would consider either leaving that church or withholding all money to the denomination concentrating on the local church. In my opinion the United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church will likely follow the Episcopalians into heresy on the issue of homosexuality. Let us pray that these denominations reverse this sad and destructive trend.
For now, this decision was made in one church, in one conference, out West. This decision doesn't speak for the United Methodist church as a whole. However, our General Conference, which is the rule making body, if you will, for the United Methodist Church, will be meeting at the end of next month. You can bet this issue will be on the agenda. At that time, if the Discipline is changed, the United Methodist Church, sadly, will probably not be so United anymore. I don't know what the outcome will be, but I am definately in pray for those that will be making the decisions.
 
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Momzilla

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LBZ said:
I believe I have. If you are unsatisfied, I can do nothing to alleviate that.
The only argument I saw was the claim that the relevant portion of the Book of Discipline is an anachronism. As I stated, even if true, it does not prove vagueness. I take it, then, that you concede the point (albeit not the larger argument that the BoD is wrong and that homosexuals have every right to be ordained ministers).

As for the rest ... :rolleyes: Go in peace, my sister in Christ.
 
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PeterPaul

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La Bonita Zorilla said:
Sorry, I am not understanding what you want.

What I meant, and I think this will clear the "air", is for you to post the specific quote you find vague from the Book of Discipline and then separately dissect what you find vague about it. This way we can understand your position better.
 
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PeterPaul said:
What I meant, and I think this will clear the "air", is for you to post the specific quote you find vague from the Book of Discipline and then separately dissect what you find vague about it. This way we can understand your position better.

You may find these two articles helpful:


During the three-day trial, [Bishop] Tuell's testimony had a profound effect on jurors. The retired bishop had been a practicing attorney before entering the ministry and is widely considered an expert on United Methodist law.

In more than three hours of testimony and cross-examination, Tuell outlined the history of the church's Social Principles.

"These principles are not law," Tuell explained. Although they express the vote of the General Conference, they are to be seen as "instructive," he said, and a basis for discussion as the church seeks to discern God's will regarding various social issues. He then read an opening statement to that effect as it currently appears at the beginning of the Statement of Social Principles.

"The United Methodist Church has never declared homosexual practice to be incompatible with Christian teaching," Tuell emphasized on two occasions during his testimony. "Declared" is the operative word, he insisted. Homosexuality is not a chargeable offense, because it has not been declared so in church law.

The jury also made that distinction. "We searched the Discipline and did not find a declaration that 'the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching,'" the jurors said in their statement after the verdict.

Bishop William Boyd Grove, who presided over the trial, offered additional insight in a March 23 interview with UMNS. He said the jury found Dammann not guilty based on testimony about Paragraph 304.3 in the Book of Discipline, where the phrase, "since the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching," is found. "They received testimony that caused them to doubt whether the paragraph has force given the fact that the word 'since' refers back to the Social Principles," Grove said.

The following paragraph from the Disciple is that addressed by the Bishop in the first paragraph above:

¶159 Preface to Social Principles
The Social Principles are a prayerful and thoughtful effort on the part of the General Conference to speak to the human issues in the contemporary world from a sound biblical and theological foundation as historically demonstrated in United Methodist traditions. They are a call to faithfulness and are intended to be instructive and persuasive in the best of the prophetic spirit; however, they are not church law. The Social Principles are a call to all members of The United Methodist Church to a prayerful, studied dialogue of faith and practice.​

Bishop Tuell explained his testamony in a bit more detail in this article:

KAREN DAMMANN TRIAL WITNESS

Bishop Tuell analyzes church law on homosexuality,
finds church has no declaration against homosexuality​

an interview with Bishop Tuell by Rev. Paul Beeman​

Bishop Jack M. Tuell, a member of the Washington State Bar Association , is an acknowledged authority in both church law and civil law affecting the church. His book, The Organization of The United Methodist Church, in its ninth edition, is a standard text in seminary education. He has presided at numerous church trials and is known for his fairness. He was elected bishop in 1972, retiring in 1992. He and his wife, Marji, make their home at Wesley Homes, Des Moines, Washington.

When the church court's verdict in the trial of the Rev. Karen Dammann was announced March 20, the 13-member trial court, a jury of her clergy peers, came to what some call contradictory conclusions.

Behind the court's acquittal stands the testimony of retired Bishop Jack M. Tuell, of Des Moines, Washington. His was at once the most persuasive and most technical of the 14 defense witnesses at the trial.

On the one hand, the jury sustained "the specification that Rev. Karen Dammann is a self-avowed practicing homosexual...." The agreement was unanimous. On the other hand, the jury announced, "The only charge against the Rev. Karen T. Dammann is 'practices declared by The United Methodist Church to be incompatible with Christian teachings,' under ¶2702.1b, relating to the Judicial Complaint of Bishop Elias Galvan."

"(W)e, the trial court, do not find the evidence presented by the church counsel to be clear and convincing that Karen Dammann has engaged in any 'practices declared by The United Methodist Church to be incompatible with Christian teachings.' We cannot sustain the charge."

The vote was: Not guilty 11, undecided 2, Guilty 0.

To explain his testimony, Bishop Tuell granted an interview on March 26. In answer to questions, he essentially reprised what he had said at the trial, discussing three issues: 1) the history of General Conference legislation on homosexuality; 2) the nature of the language used in the legislation; and 3) the focus of legislation disallowing ordination or appointment of homosexuals as pastors.

I. The history of General Conference legislation on homosexuality

Bishop Tuell traced the history of all legislation regarding homosexuality, beginning with the1968 General Conference, where he was a member. It was that session which called for the formation of a statement of Social Principles. A 32-member commission chaired by Bishop James Thomas was created, and directed to report to the 1972 General Conference with its recommendations.

In 1972 the Social Principles document was presented to the General Conference. In the plenary session, GC member Don Hand, SW Texas, offered, as an amendment to one sentence, the clause, "though we do not condone the practice of homosexuality and consider this practice incompatible with Christian doctrine,". A substitute motion was then made by a New Jersey delegate, containing much harsher language about homosexual practice. It was voted down. The vote on the Hand amendment was then taken with almost no debate. Presiding Bishop Eugene Slater responded, "And I believe the amendment carries." In spite of the uncertainty of his ruling, the vote was not challenged.

Until 1980, there was no chargeable offense related specifically to homosexuality. Then the General Conference adopted under "Chargeable Offenses" the language of ¶2702.1b: "practices declared by The United Methodist Church to be incompatible with Christian teachings;".

Before the vote, General Conference Member Joan Hoover, Iowa, complained that ¶2702.1b was "written in code," avoiding any direct declaration that homosexuality itself is a chargeable offense, although that seemed to be the hidden intent. She claimed that if homosexuality was considered immoral, that immorality was already listed as item (a) under chargeable offenses. "I do not believe in writing the Discipline in code," she said.

The only referent of ¶2702.1b was back to the 1972 statement in the Social Principles, "though we do not condone the practice of homosexuality and consider this practice incompatible with Christian doctrine,". [The word doctrine was later changed to teaching.]

At the trial, Bishop Tuell then turned to the record of the last night of the 2000 General Conference. He noted that the Conference had voted, as an addition to the "Preface" of the Social Principles, the statement, "However they are not church law." While the action was clear and was recorded, the statement was omitted from the 2000 Book of Discipline. It can be read only in the Errata Sheet of omissions and mistakes, later issued by the UM Publishing House.

Thus the reference of ¶2702.1b, and the charge against Karen Dammann, are based on a social teaching that is clearly not a law of the church.

II. The nature of General Conference language related to homosexuality

Tuell further claimed that the language of the Discipline regarding homosexuality is "soft," not declaratory. It uses words like, "since," and "we do not condone," and "we consider." "United Methodists know how to make declarations," he said, pointing by way of contrast to the Social Principles' clear statements that "women and men are to be equal...," its condemnation of war, and that "all forms of enslavement are totally prohibited...."

As Bishop Tuell noted, he threw in a homely illustration. "I've lived in a parsonage most of my adult life, often on a busy street where our kids have grown up. We said to them, 'Do not go into the street. You could be hurt. If we see you in the street you will be punished.' We never said to them, 'Now kids, although we do not condone going into the street, and we consider the practice incompatible with your safety, we affirm that God's grace is available to all.'"

As laughter subsided in the court room, Tuell said, "Yes, that is laughable. It's ludicrous. When any authority has responsibility for declaring the law, whether it's the family, the church or the state, simple fairness demands that it be stated clearly, directly and unambiguously. If the state had a criminal statute written with such ambiguity and circuitous language, it would be thrown out of court. Surely the church that has authority over the lives and careers of its clergy must have similar standards."

He said, "The phrasing of these statements of the Discipline never rise to the level of a declaration."

III. The focus of legislation disallowing the ordination or appointment of homosexuals

Tuell pointed out that the provision of ¶304.3, "Since homosexual practice is incompatible with Christian teaching...," falls under "Qualifications for Ordination," and is a directive to Annual Conference Boards of Ordained Ministry, clergy members of Annual Conferences, and Bishops.

Conclusion

In summarizing his testimony, Bishop Tuell said, "After careful study of the history and content of this legislation, it is my considered opinion and judgment that The United Methodist Church has never declared the practice of homosexuality to be incompatible with Christian teaching."

After 9 ½ hours of study, prayer and deliberation, the trial court agreed. In its only statement on the decision, the court wrote:

"We have searched the Discipline and did not find a declaration that 'the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.' We did see in the Discipline many declarative statements. An example is: 'Inclusiveness means openness, acceptance, and support that enables all persons to participate in the life of the Church, the community and the world. Thus, inclusiveness denies every semblance of discrimination.' (Section 6 of The Ministry of All Christians, section VI, 'Called to Inclusiveness,' ¶138, p. 93, second paragraph)."

Beyond the full text of their statement, members of the trial court made a mutual covenant to make no further comments regarding the trial.

The presiding officer of the trial was retired Bishop William B. Grove, West Virginia. He said he realized that persons not attending the trial might misunderstand the verdict and be upset by it. He said, "If they had been there, even though they disagree, they would respect the decision." He added, "I believe that we conducted the trial fairly and honorably according to the provisions in the United Methodist Book of Discipline."

Without a dissenting vote, the trial court had acquitted the Rev. Karen Dammann, who plans to return to ministry.​

And this is from the jury statement:

"We have made every attempt to be faithful to the Book of Discipline in its entirety. We have taken very seriously the mandate to presume innocence unless there is sufficient evidence to bring a different verdict. The church's obligation is to present clear and convincing evidence to sustain the charge. We searched the Discipline and did not find a declaration that 'the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.'

"We did see in the Discipline many declarative statements. An example is: 'Inclusiveness means openness, acceptance, and support that enables all persons to participate in the life of the Church, the community, and the world. Thus, inclusiveness denies every semblance of discrimination' (Section 6 of The Ministry of all Christians, section VI, 'Called to Inclusiveness,' Paragraph 138, p. 93, second paragraph).​
 
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