Problems of the essence-energy distinction

Kameaux

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I'd like to start of by saying that this will be a relatively long post, yet the nature of the subject doesn't allow my writing to take on a shorter form if i want to adequately represent my views. If there are any theological steps i have missed in my analysis, i hope to be corrected by somebody with more knowledge on the subject than me, so that i can change my position accordingly.


In the current eastern-orthodox church the essence-energy distinction is embraced as a fundamental aspect of it's theology. Going into the history of the essence-energy distinction is unnecessary to substantiate my criticism and i will therefore delve right into the problems that this distinction creates. God, according to the (current) orthodox consensus, must be believed to be (at least partly) compound to avoid contradictions with scriptural claims that relate to the divine nature. On the basis of this dilemma St. Gregory of Palamas during the late 13th century introduced the essence-energy distinction in an effort to create a consistent and coherent theology that protects the believer from falling into erroneous conceptions of God. If no distinction was made between the energies and essence of God the believer wouldn't be able to distinguish between, for instance, grace, mercy and love - all three distinct from one another but coming from one God. Grace would literally become God, mercy would become God and love would become God as well, leading to many new complications. One of these complications, from a purely scriptural perspective, are countless examples of clear verses that state that God is, essentially, unknowable. Whether it be Moses who says that nobody ever sees the face (essence) of God, or Christ Himself who says that nobody knows the Father except the Son. Without an essence-energy distinction the experience of love would be the same as the experience of God, there being no fundamental difference between God's love (an energy) and God's Self (His essence) and therefore be against the teaching of Jesus and the prophets.



Nevertheless, the essence-energy distinction ultimately leads to a dilemma that is many times more severe. To understand this problem we have to emphasise another aspect of modern Christian thought and that is the belief in true phenomenal distinctions, or rather, the rejection of non-duality. In Christian thought there is a strong belief in the authenticity of universal concepts. Authentic in the sense that, aside from the consequences that the Fall of Adam and Eve had on the entirety of creation, the way human beings perceive the world is still essentially trustworthy, for a good God wouldn't ''deceive'' it's creatures that He made in His own image. Idealism, for this reason, is largely rejected by the orthodox churches. The experience that an individual has of life is real, not merely a product of his mind. What the individual sees, hears, tastes, smells and feels is a true representation of the dynamics of the external world. The separation between subject and object is therefore also real, regardless of the arguments that can be made in favour of ontological interconnection between the perceiver and what he perceives. It goes without saying that this also entails that creation itself has no direct connection to God, neither is anything within creation rooted in divinity. God, according to the doctrine of creatio-ex-nihilo, accepted by virtually all historical churches from the 4th century onwards, didn't create out of Himself or from Himself; God is believed to have created out of nothingness. Inconceivable as though this may be, the consequences of this are self-explanatory, namely; creation is not representative of God in any way, shape or form. God may have created beings in His likeness, but the only connection that the total creation has to God is in being His creation, while simultaneously remaining fundamentally distinct from Him. Let us combine these Christian beliefs with the essence-energy distinction to show the consequences these two basic aspects of orthodox faith will have on theology.



Making a fundamental distinction between God's essence and God's energies, where His essence remains forever unknown, leaves us with the inability to confirm whether the energies that we believe to experience have their origin God. If we combine this dilemma with the Christian belief that neither we, nor anything in creation (not even scripture) is rooted in God, we have definitively severed our connection with God and have created a worldview that is as internally contradicting as the worldview of atheism. It goes without saying that without a God there is no objective foundation for any belief, yet an unknown and inaccessible God ultimately separate from a world not rooted in Him or connected to Him in any way leads to the exact same problem. When a Christian appeals to the church, scripture, or authoritative saints to defend his belief, he is already assuming that his sense perception through which he affirms the existence of these things is reliable. Yet on what grounds does he believe this? Neither his sense perception or reasoning faculties can be believed to have their roots (or origin) in an objective foundation if the essence of God is both outside of the world and simultaneously argued to be forever unknown. ''But'' the critic will say ''i believe in Jesus Christ who is rooted in God and is God Himself, and therefore i can trust His words''. Yet even the teachings and incarnation of Christ can only be argued on the basis of writings of the external world, but without being rooted in an objective foundation, the first principle, or God, there is no reason to assume that anything the individual is experiencing has an actual ontological representation in the broader reality. His experience becomes empty of meaning, his reasoning-faculties untrustworthy, his sense-perception void. This is the ultimate conclusion of the belief in a real separation between God and creation, subject and object, perceiver and the perceived. Just like the atheist has no reason for any of his convictions as he (for all intends and purposes) believes that the world is a product of matter, unguided by intelligent sentience, neither does the Christian dualist who believes that creation and God are ontologically distinct, undermining his own possibility of trusting his subjective experience of the world.



For this reason, the belief in some form of non-dualism is a necessity for a coherent worldview, as this is the only conviction that allows an individual to be justified in attributing reliability to his subjective experience. Only in non-dualism is he believed to be intrinsically connected with the substrate of reality, and also, in the deepest depths of his being shares the same essence with God; but a dualistic worldview will forever sever him from the first principle of existence, leading to the impossibility of knowledge, wisdom and morality. We believe that the writings of st. Dionysius, who for many hundreds of years was considered one of the highest authorities on theology, are in harmony with the solution that we propose. To end our essay we will appeal to his short treatise ''on mystical theology'' where st. Dionysius argues that apophatic contemplation is a path by which the believer can have a direct experience with God. Though st. Dionysius doesn't argue for non-dualism in a direct manner, he seems to do so indirectly. If the individual wasn't in some way rooted in God the emptying of his mind and strategic renouncing of mental imagery wouldn't lead to God, but to emptiness and darkness; a mere vacuum void of all meaning, divinity and holiness. Though i could go on citing many different examples of saints whom i believe have been forced to come to similar conclusions regarding the necessity of phenomenal interconnectedness for coherent theology, i will leave our statements as they are, to be ingested by the reader in their current form, considering them to be sufficient to explain the negative consequences of a largely demystified theology as is practiced by most modern churches in both the western and eastern world today.
 
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dóxatotheó

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I'd like to start of by saying that this will be a relatively long post, yet the nature of the subject doesn't allow my writing to take on a shorter form if i want to adequately represent my views. If there are any theological steps i have missed in my analysis, i hope to be corrected by somebody with more knowledge on the subject than me, so that i can change my position accordingly.


In the current eastern-orthodox church the essence-energy distinction is embraced as a fundamental aspect of it's theology. Going into the history of the essence-energy distinction is unnecessary to substantiate my criticism and i will therefore delve right into the problems that this distinction creates. God, according to the (current) orthodox consensus, must be believed to be (at least partly) compound to avoid contradictions with scriptural claims that relate to the divine nature. On the basis of this dilemma St. Gregory of Palamas during the late 13th century introduced the essence-energy distinction in an effort to create a consistent and coherent theology that protects the believer from falling into erroneous conceptions of God. If no distinction was made between the energies and essence of God the believer wouldn't be able to distinguish between, for instance, grace, mercy and love - all three distinct from one another but coming from one God. Grace would literally become God, mercy would become God and love would become God as well, leading to many new complications. One of these complications, from a purely scriptural perspective, are countless examples of clear verses that state that God is, essentially, unknowable. Whether it be Moses who says that nobody ever sees the face (essence) of God, or Christ Himself who says that nobody knows the Father except the Son. Without an essence-energy distinction the experience of love would be the same as the experience of God, there being no fundamental difference between God's love (an energy) and God's Self (His essence) and therefore be against the teaching of Jesus and the prophets.



Nevertheless, the essence-energy distinction ultimately leads to a dilemma that is many times more severe. To understand this problem we have to emphasise another aspect of modern Christian thought and that is the belief in true phenomenal distinctions, or rather, the rejection of non-duality. In Christian thought there is a strong belief in the authenticity of universal concepts. Authentic in the sense that, aside from the consequences that the Fall of Adam and Eve had on the entirety of creation, the way human beings perceive the world is still essentially trustworthy, for a good God wouldn't ''deceive'' it's creatures that He made in His own image. Idealism, for this reason, is largely rejected by the orthodox churches. The experience that an individual has of life is real, not merely a product of his mind. What the individual sees, hears, tastes, smells and feels is a true representation of the dynamics of the external world. The separation between subject and object is therefore also real, regardless of the arguments that can be made in favour of ontological interconnection between the perceiver and what he perceives. It goes without saying that this also entails that creation itself has no direct connection to God, neither is anything within creation rooted in divinity. God, according to the doctrine of creatio-ex-nihilo, accepted by virtually all historical churches from the 4th century onwards, didn't create out of Himself or from Himself; God is believed to have created out of nothingness. Inconceivable as though this may be, the consequences of this are self-explanatory, namely; creation is not representative of God in any way, shape or form. God may have created beings in His likeness, but the only connection that the total creation has to God is in being His creation, while simultaneously remaining fundamentally distinct from Him. Let us combine these Christian beliefs with the essence-energy distinction to show the consequences these two basic aspects of orthodox faith will have on theology.



Making a fundamental distinction between God's essence and God's energies, where His essence remains forever unknown, leaves us with the inability to confirm whether the energies that we believe to experience have their origin God. If we combine this dilemma with the Christian belief that neither we, nor anything in creation (not even scripture) is rooted in God, we have definitively severed our connection with God and have created a worldview that is as internally contradicting as the worldview of atheism. It goes without saying that without a God there is no objective foundation for any belief, yet an unknown and inaccessible God ultimately separate from a world not rooted in Him or connected to Him in any way leads to the exact same problem. When a Christian appeals to the church, scripture, or authoritative saints to defend his belief, he is already assuming that his sense perception through which he affirms the existence of these things is reliable. Yet on what grounds does he believe this? Neither his sense perception or reasoning faculties can be believed to have their roots (or origin) in an objective foundation if the essence of God is both outside of the world and simultaneously argued to be forever unknown. ''But'' the critic will say ''i believe in Jesus Christ who is rooted in God and is God Himself, and therefore i can trust His words''. Yet even the teachings and incarnation of Christ can only be argued on the basis of writings of the external world, but without being rooted in an objective foundation, the first principle, or God, there is no reason to assume that anything the individual is experiencing has an actual ontological representation in the broader reality. His experience becomes empty of meaning, his reasoning-faculties untrustworthy, his sense-perception void. This is the ultimate conclusion of the belief in a real separation between God and creation, subject and object, perceiver and the perceived. Just like the atheist has no reason for any of his convictions as he (for all intends and purposes) believes that the world is a product of matter, unguided by intelligent sentience, neither does the Christian dualist who believes that creation and God are ontologically distinct, undermining his own possibility of trusting his subjective experience of the world.



For this reason, the belief in some form of non-dualism is a necessity for a coherent worldview, as this is the only conviction that allows an individual to be justified in attributing reliability to his subjective experience. Only in non-dualism is he believed to be intrinsically connected with the substrate of reality, and also, in the deepest depths of his being shares the same essence with God; but a dualistic worldview will forever sever him from the first principle of existence, leading to the impossibility of knowledge, wisdom and morality. We believe that the writings of st. Dionysius, who for many hundreds of years was considered one of the highest authorities on theology, are in harmony with the solution that we propose. To end our essay we will appeal to his short treatise ''on mystical theology'' where st. Dionysius argues that apophatic contemplation is a path by which the believer can have a direct experience with God. Though st. Dionysius doesn't argue for non-dualism in a direct manner, he seems to do so indirectly. If the individual wasn't in some way rooted in God the emptying of his mind and strategic renouncing of mental imagery wouldn't lead to God, but to emptiness and darkness; a mere vacuum void of all meaning, divinity and holiness. Though i could go on citing many different examples of saints whom i believe have been forced to come to similar conclusions regarding the necessity of phenomenal interconnectedness for coherent theology, i will leave our statements as they are, to be ingested by the reader in their current form, considering them to be sufficient to explain the negative consequences of a largely demystified theology as is practiced by most modern churches in both the western and eastern world today.
Question are you a Scotist, Thomist, Or you affirm your own theological position? also have you actually read Palamas works?
 
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dóxatotheó

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Well I Well haha, this was a lot to process first thing I wouldn't go out and say all EOs affirm Palamas position of EED but it's a popular belief yes! Heres a quote explaining what it truly is "[E]ssence, whether in the case of God or in the case of man, does not exist apart from the specific person who gives it subsistence. Persons hypostasize essence, they give it an hypostasis, that is, real and specific existence. Essence exists only 'in persons'; persons are the mode of existence of essence."[32] God as infinite and hyper-being (as existent) is called the Father (hypostasis)[33] as origin of all things created and uncreated.[34] God's hands that created the finite or material world are the uncreated existences (hypostases) of God named the Son (God incarnate Jesus Christ) and God immaterial and in Spirit (called the Holy Spirit).[35] Since all of the existences of God as well as all things derive from the Father. What is uncreated as well as created also too, comes from God the Father (hypostasis).[36] The God as uncreated in ousia is infinite and is therefore beyond (not limited to) being or existence.[27] The ousia of God is uncreated and is a quality shared as common between the existences of God. This in Eastern Christianity is called hyper-being, above being (hyperousia). In this dispensation, in which the Godhead is manifested in the energies, the Father appears as the possessor of the attribute which is manifested, the Son as the manifestation of the Father, the Holy Spirit as He who manifests". I find it quite interesting that you would argue that just because the Energies are distinct they are seperate from the Essence that in itself is not rational. Christianity and non dualism just doesn't follow God is loving of course, but the bond isn't just some act that came to existence from nothing but rather love and every other attribute(energy) of God which is linked to the essence the distinction might be real but the connection is most definitely not separate in forms/modes.the Energies and the Essence are distinct but linked/supplied to one another, even simple philosophical positions would make it very hard to say no distinctions in God but say he doesn't eternally create. There really isn't much to argue for as you seem to imply the distinction means separations of mind and body which in itself leads to a Cartesian Heresy. The being of God is not knowable the relationship with creation is in fact with Gods energies yes but the energies aren't separate deities they are the simplicit God's acts that are distinct but supplied by the essence. May I ask you once again have you actually read the EO position? The acts are God so the bond is with God.
We say that we know the greatness of God, His power, His wisdom, His goodness, His providence over us, and the justness of His judgment; but not His very essence. The question is, therefore, only put for the sake of dispute. For he who denies that he knows the essence does not confess himself to be ignorant of God, because our idea of God is gathered from all the attributes which I have enumerated. But God, he says, is simple, and whatever attribute of Him you have reckoned as knowable is of His essence. But the absurdities involved in this sophism are innumerable. When all these high attributes have been enumerated, are they all names of one essence? And is there the same mutual force in His awfulness and His loving-kindness, His justice and His creative power, His providence and His foreknowledge, and His bestowal of rewards and punishments, His majesty and His providence? In mentioning any one of these do we declare His essence? If they say, yes, let them not ask if we know the essence of God, but let them enquire of us whether we know God to be awful, or just, or merciful. These we confess that we know. If they say that essence is something distinct, let them not put us in the wrong on the score of simplicity. For they confess themselves that there is a distinction between the essence and each one of the attributes enumerated. The operations are various, and the essence simple, but we say that we know our God from His operations, but do not undertake to approach near to His essence. His operations come down to us, but His essence remains beyond our reach. St. Basil the Great, letter 234. (Note that operation is how the translator has translated ενέργεια.)
God entirety is life and light, without obliterating the distinction between these terms or relegating the distinction to something purely conceptual (see against eunomius 2.29), St. Gregory too argues that God as a whole is both fully transcendent in essence (for one cannot know what it is that God is) and manifest in His operations (energeiai). No composition is introduced by this, for God is not partially transcendent and partially immanent but entirely transcendent and entirely immanent, and yet the distinction between the two cannot be purely conceptual, for if it were the case either we should have to commune with God through a created intermediary (an effect created by the divine operation) or our communion with God would violate His transcendence. Rather, God as a whole is made manifest to us and dwells within us and God as a whole transcends us., we are describing propria of the unknowable divine substance which we have come to know by God's operation in the world. Goodness and justice need not be identical for so long as I say that God as a whole is good and God as a whole is just, the non-identity of the two nevertheless does not imply composition since it does not necessarily entail God being composed out of these propria. In the theology of later fathers, likely starting with the pseudo-areopagite and St. Maximus, we would instead claim that goodness and justness are energies of God. God is identical with each energy, and each energy is not a part of God (which would be impossible) but God as a whole, and yet the energies differ from the substance of God and from each other not by some trick of the mind but because of how God truly is. The Orthodox Position is very similar to the Scotist One
Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Making a fundamental distinction between God's essence and God's energies, where His essence remains forever unknown, leaves us with the inability to confirm whether the energies that we believe to experience have their origin God.

that’s completely incorrect. we can know that the energies, like the essence, are of God because they are natural to Him.
 
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Lukaris

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God is ultimately unknowable ( Deuteronomy 29:29, John 1:18) but we can know Him based on what the Trinity reveals to His creation. Peter, James, & John experienced the uncreated light on Mt. Tabor (Matthew 17:1-9) but God remains ultimately unknowable. We live by faith ( Hebrews 11:1).
 
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com7fy8

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As a guest of this Eastern Orthodox forum, if I may >
where His essence remains forever unknown,
In my opinion, welcoming however our Eastern Orthodox people please to comment on this > I would say essence has to do with how God is, and "God is love" > 1 John 4:8&16 > and I would mention how the essence of how He is love is different than the essence of human love and of the sort of lust which fools humans into thinking it is love.

And you can experience how God is in His love >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, yes God does share His own love with us; and so we can experience the essence of this love. But we can not know this love's essence only by means of theory and word explanations. And we can not spell out what the essence of this love is, in some way so that we can predict what God will do.

But we can experience Him and enjoy Him and share with Him in how He has us loving . . . in His love. But words and ideas can only describe this and give us words to go with what we are experiencing. And ones not experiencing can be clueless about what our words mean.

So, no we can not know God's essence, only by means of theory and explanation. But we can know His essence by experiencing how He "in our hearts" shares Himself with us.

If no distinction was made between the energies and essence of God the believer wouldn't be able to distinguish between, for instance, grace, mercy and love - all three distinct from one another but coming from one God.
My opinion is that these terms all refer to the same basic reality.

Grace is God's favor, and mercy means His favor being kind to us, and love means His merciful kindness favoring us with personal and tender affection. Each word can mean the same God being good to us in the same way, but each word might simply call attention to some different aspect of Him loving us "in our hearts".
 
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ArmyMatt

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As a guest of this Eastern Orthodox forum, if I may >In my opinion, welcoming however our Eastern Orthodox people please to comment on this > I would say essence has to do with how God is, and "God is love" > 1 John 4:8&16 > and I would mention how the essence of how He is love is different than the essence of human love and of the sort of lust which fools humans into thinking it is love.

And you can experience how God is in His love >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, yes God does share His own love with us; and so we can experience the essence of this love. But we can not know this love's essence only by means of theory and word explanations. And we can not spell out what the essence of this love is, in some way so that we can predict what God will do.

But we can experience Him and enjoy Him and share with Him in how He has us loving . . . in His love. But words and ideas can only describe this and give us words to go with what we are experiencing. And ones not experiencing can be clueless about what our words mean.

So, no we can not know God's essence, only by means of theory and explanation. But we can know His essence by experiencing how He "in our hearts" shares Himself with us.

My opinion is that these terms all refer to the same basic reality.

Grace is God's favor, and mercy means His favor being kind to us, and love means His merciful kindness favoring us with personal and tender affection. Each word can mean the same God being good to us in the same way, but each word might simply call attention to some different aspect of Him loving us "in our hearts".

no, God’s essence isn’t love. love is an energy of His. we can’t know His essence ever, because we will never know what it means to be God by nature.
 
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dóxatotheó

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Well I Well haha, this was a lot to process first thing I wouldn't go out and say all EOs affirm Palamas position of EED but it's a popular belief yes! Heres a quote explaining what it truly is "[E]ssence, whether in the case of God or in the case of man, does not exist apart from the specific person who gives it subsistence. Persons hypostasize essence, they give it an hypostasis, that is, real and specific existence. Essence exists only 'in persons'; persons are the mode of existence of essence."[32] God as infinite and hyper-being (as existent) is called the Father (hypostasis)[33] as origin of all things created and uncreated.[34] God's hands that created the finite or material world are the uncreated existences (hypostases) of God named the Son (God incarnate Jesus Christ) and God immaterial and in Spirit (called the Holy Spirit).[35] Since all of the existences of God as well as all things derive from the Father. What is uncreated as well as created also too, comes from God the Father (hypostasis).[36] The God as uncreated in ousia is infinite and is therefore beyond (not limited to) being or existence.[27] The ousia of God is uncreated and is a quality shared as common between the existences of God. This in Eastern Christianity is called hyper-being, above being (hyperousia). In this dispensation, in which the Godhead is manifested in the energies, the Father appears as the possessor of the attribute which is manifested, the Son as the manifestation of the Father, the Holy Spirit as He who manifests". I find it quite interesting that you would argue that just because the Energies are distinct they are seperate from the Essence that in itself is not rational. Christianity and non dualism just doesn't follow God is loving of course, but the bond isn't just some act that came to existence from nothing but rather love and every other attribute(energy) of God which is linked to the essence the distinction might be real but the connection is most definitely not separate in forms/modes.the Energies and the Essence are distinct but linked/supplied to one another, even simple philosophical positions would make it very hard to say no distinctions in God but say he doesn't eternally create. There really isn't much to argue for as you seem to imply the distinction means separations of mind and body which in itself leads to a Cartesian Heresy. The being of God is not knowable the relationship with creation is in fact with Gods energies yes but the energies aren't separate deities they are the simplicit God's acts that are distinct but supplied by the essence. May I ask you once again have you actually read the EO position? The acts are God so the bond is with God. God entirety is life and light, without obliterating the distinction between these terms or relegating the distinction to something purely conceptual (see against eunomius 2.29), St. Gregory too argues that God as a whole is both fully transcendent in essence (for one cannot know what it is that God is) and manifest in His operations (energeiai). No composition is introduced by this, for God is not partially transcendent and partially immanent but entirely transcendent and entirely immanent, and yet the distinction between the two cannot be purely conceptual, for if it were the case either we should have to commune with God through a created intermediary (an effect created by the divine operation) or our communion with God would violate His transcendence. Rather, God as a whole is made manifest to us and dwells within us and God as a whole transcends us., we are describing propria of the unknowable divine substance which we have come to know by God's operation in the world. Goodness and justice need not be identical for so long as I say that God as a whole is good and God as a whole is just, the non-identity of the two nevertheless does not imply composition since it does not necessarily entail God being composed out of these propria. In the theology of later fathers, likely starting with the pseudo-areopagite and St. Maximus, we would instead claim that goodness and justness are energies of God. God is identical with each energy, and each energy is not a part of God (which would be impossible) but God as a whole, and yet the energies differ from the substance of God and from each other not by some trick of the mind but because of how God truly is. The Orthodox Position is very similar to the Scotist One
Do the Eastern Orthodox believe in absolute divine simplicity?
@ArmyMatt is this good?
 
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This is an area I have been working through, and I have not read enough to venture deep into what is a very precise piece of theology. It certainly appears to make sense, and I personally perceive challenges with the main alternative of absolute divine simplicity.

Just wanted to say that you have to be careful in English when converting words from Greek and Latin. "Essence" translates fairly clearly but "energies" is more complex. I see words like "operations" or "actions" being used for "energeiai". Energies in my mind a least maps onto words like kinetic, heat mechanical et al.

My questions for our EO folks is whilst I understand the essence/energy divide in terms of the trinity, how is essence/energies divide worked out in terms of the incarnation of our Lord, being both fully God and fully human?
 
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ArmyMatt

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My questions for our EO folks is whilst I understand the essence/energy divide in terms of the trinity, how is essence/energies divide worked out in terms of the incarnation of our Lord, being both fully God and fully human?

not sure what you mean, but His human energies were in full communion with His Divine Energies.

and not to nitpick, but it’s a distinction, not a divide. there is no division in God.
 
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ArmyMatt

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No problem in nit picking, it is an important point to note, personally always happy to get be corrected when I make an error in describing something.

I will rework my query...

you’re good. I said it, FYI, because those who disagree with the essence and energy distinction say that it divides God into parts.
 
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