Problem with Modern Worship

[foursquareman]

That seems to much like buttering God up to me. Would you want someone to be praising you and then suddenly ask you for something? Wouldn't you wonder if they were just praising you so they could get something?

God moves through prayer, worship is solely for God's benefit. It would be selfish to use worship to ask God for anything.

True worship comes from having a heart that is in the right place. God knows the heart of man, and whether he is in a position of worship, or simply buttering Him up.

If I ask my dad for something, in some cases it would be a show of respect, or adoration. In showing him that I need him, and that I go to him for my provision. This could be the same for us and God.

BTW, I think "Majesty" by Delirious is one of the best worship songs around

 

[KristianJ]

BTW, I think "Majesty" by Delirious is one of the best worship songs around

Too right, mate! I absolutely love that song

 

[gig]

The discussion thus far begs the question: who or what determines the depth standard for worship music lyrics? Scripture? Psalm 150 repeats the word "praise" 13 times in only 6 verses. Redundant. What is the lyrical formula which ensures church-service worthiness of a song?

While reading this thread, I started to feel suffocated. I get an uneasy feeling that we are futilely drawing lines for something which perhaps defies limits. Yes, the order of worship should be labored over. Might it look different for different congregations? And, when one considers an international context, musical and verbal expressions often part ways with typical Western cultural expression.

Maybe we confuse shallowness with simplicity. Surely contemplation of God’s complexity can be expressed simply. And it must be acknowledged that some theological concepts are in fact simple. As well, the possibility exists that some complex songs hide muddled theology, or bury good theology under a mountain of lyrical snobbery (eschew obfuscation!).

I have to touch on one more thing: someone mentioned that God doesn’t care about the music itself. I strongly disagree. Words are only one way to worship. We know God is much bigger than our vocabulary. And who has not worshiped God in the midst of being moved by music? Sometimes the sheer joy of music brings us to the worship circle. Music is emotional, as are words. We should worship God emotionally, or else we are simply doing a duty (can worship exist in coldness?).

Please respond, reeducate, reassure, rebuke at will. It was not my intention to belittle any of the previous discussion. I’m just trying to learn.

gig
hab. 2:14

 

[foursquareman]

Please respond, reeducate, reassure, rebuke at will. It was not my intention to belittle any of the previous discussion. I’m just trying to learn.

Great post gig!!

 

[mrcrow]

i feel this as well...the words can be slightly unscriptural and 'emotive'...
when we practice these songs the worship leader will comment on the words and the musicians take his lead...the best note by note tune is useless without the CORRECT message...this applies to all worship music writers...wooly thinking is no good if people go and read scripture and get confusing vibes...

the best wordings is in psalms etc...they may be old but are foundational and good on the make over to a modern song..

"lead me to the rock"..ps 61:2..good contemporary piece with strong scriptural amplified words..

"arms of love"...a bit mushy..good bass line aka mozart..but we got to keep our heads up on this love theme...its agape.

 

[mafiedler]

Oh, wow, you have struck a chord here! HA, ha! Okay, my husband says he can't go to church someplace where the music is ho-hum. But, since I attend an independent Baptist church, they don't play contemporary worship during church services. (and boy am I glad!) I don't think the purpose of going to church is to be entertained. It is to learn about the Lord, and worship Him. My husband is Nazerene, and all the churches he has gone to all have very goos choirs. My Baptist church has a very small choir of mostly older people. Currently my husband is attending a non denominational church where tehy have a praise and worsip band. I haven't been there yet. I think I am just a little more conservative than he is. I don't mind some of the older contemporary songs, like Rich Mullins Awesome God. But I prefer hymns.

 

[Brenron]

True worship comes from having a heart that is in the right place. God knows the heart of man, and whether he is in a position of worship, or simply buttering Him up.

If I ask my dad for something, in some cases it would be a show of respect, or adoration. In showing him that I need him, and that I go to him for my provision. This could be the same for us and God

Good point, I agree that only God knows, it's why I never judge people when they worship.

 

[•Amadeus•]

I think worship songs should be for worshipping God, and not ourselves, or our "feelings" and stuff.

 

[hallsmentholyptus]

I think modern worship is more free than traditional worship. If you are singing a song about being happy you can be happy by dancing and clapping. So many times when traditional songs are sung people are singing about being happy....but they don't look it. I prefer modern worship because of the emotion.

 

[mrcrow]

I think modern worship is more free than traditional worship. If you are singing a song about being happy you can be happy by dancing and clapping. So many times when traditional songs are sung people are singing about being happy....but they don't look it. I prefer modern worship because of the emotion.

guess i do too...i am still young at heart and spent a lot of happy hours listening to groovy music..
i let people choose as they feel led..and i dont let others lead me...
i play in the band
i dance when i play
the people sing their hearts out
and its ok..

the music needs to follow the needs.

 

[LilRitt04]

I can understand where you are coming from in one sense but in another, when I am at church and they sing the same song for 20 minutes I find it very powerful. I dont know why, but I do, and I dont think that they are "not very good" So I do and I dont disagree. Some songs are over sang but others are not...So basically I dont agree with you

Jenn

 

[kiya]

I disagree , most of the Modern Worship songs are biblical. They also are made up of words that seem to come straight from the heart. Words everyone can relate. It is important to have realism in our worship to God

 

[accooper]

The problem as I see it is.....Money.

Most if not all praise music writers are under contract, and the almighty dollar, or pound or whatever comes into play.

If you only knew how much these people make.

SO, to keep that money rolling in they must churn out the music.

Andrew

 

[tama_sempai]

This topic indeed is very controversial, but at the end of the day, we need to look back and see what the Bible tells us of what praise and worship is really about. In John 4:24, we are told to "worship in spirit and in truth". The "spirit" here, is not the Holy Spirit, but the human spirit, that is, to worship God sincerely and not only externally or outwardly. To worship in truth basically means to worship in accordance to the Word of God, and not by our own judgement.

I do believe that in this new age of fast-beat youth-drawing praise songs, the emphasis can shift from God into the music. In my own experience, I find myself wandering from giving my praise to God, into purely enjoying what the music has to offer. Another disturbing issue I have started to find is the emphasis on ‘self’ in many praise and worship songs. Many a time, we find ourselves singing, "I" and "me" when we really should be focussing on God. In a way, I miss the old hymns that elate God to such a high level and I'm having a growing concern on how the youth of this day and age seem to unknowingly lower God's almighty presence. Sometimes we do forget that He is the Almighty, and that He should be first and foremost revered to the highest level.

I’m not trying to have a go at contemporary Christian music, but I am making an appeal to Christians, especially the young Christians, in the issue of praise and worship. Always put God first! If He is indeed the centre of your life, then He should be the very centre of our praise and worship. In reality, the "I’s" and "Me’s" in our worship songs on Sunday mornings should really be left to our personal prayers to God. Eventually, we need to leave some time to purely praise God for the many attributes that we can find throughout the Bible. I suggest that we should all look through Psalms again, and pay heed to the amount of passion and reverence David had for His personal Lord and Saviour. God is always first!

God Bless you all!

 

[foursquareman]

This topic indeed is very controversial, but at the end of the day, we need to look back and see what the Bible tells us of what praise and worship is really about. In John 4:24, we are told to "worship in spirit and in truth". The "spirit" here, is not the Holy Spirit, but the human spirit, that is, to worship God sincerely and not only externally or outwardly. To worship in truth basically means to worship in accordance to the Word of God, and not by our own judgement.

I do believe that in this new age of fast-beat youth-drawing praise songs, the emphasis can shift from God into the music. In my own experience, I find myself wandering from giving my praise to God, into purely enjoying what the music has to offer. Another disturbing issue I have started to find is the emphasis on ‘self’ in many praise and worship songs. Many a time, we find ourselves singing, "I" and "me" when we really should be focussing on God. In a way, I miss the old hymns that elate God to such a high level and I'm having a growing concern on how the youth of this day and age seem to unknowingly lower God's almighty presence. Sometimes we do forget that He is the Almighty, and that He should be first and foremost revered to the highest level.

I’m not trying to have a go at contemporary Christian music, but I am making an appeal to Christians, especially the young Christians, in the issue of praise and worship. Always put God first! If He is indeed the centre of your life, then He should be the very centre of our praise and worship. In reality, the "I’s" and "Me’s" in our worship songs on Sunday mornings should really be left to our personal prayers to God. Eventually, we need to leave some time to purely praise God for the many attributes that we can find throughout the Bible. I suggest that we should all look through Psalms again, and pay heed to the amount of passion and reverence David had for His personal Lord and Saviour. God is always first!

God Bless you all!

If the use of "I"s and "me"s indicate too much emphasis on self rather than God, then I don't think the Psalms is a good place to look for praise and worship:

Psalm 3:3-7
But You, O Lord, are a shield for me, My glory and the One who lifts up my head. I cried to the Lord with my voice, And He heard me from His holy hill. Selah I lay down and slept; I awoke, for the Lord sustained me. I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people Who have set themselves against me all around. Arise, O Lord; Save me, O my God! For You have struck all my enemies on the cheekbone; You have broken the teeth of the ungodly.

 

[Ad645]

woohoo, my first post!
hmmm, i didn't read all the posts there were too many! but i agree, a lot of worship songs to me sound more like they're aiming at an emotional high rather than seeking to praise God and remind us of the incredible truths of the Gospel. Is it a melodic tune that fires the Holy spirit within us, or learning more about God from the Bible? if the former, its likely all we are experiencing is some emotional high which might feel good, but will by no means see us through the hard and trying times in our faith.
Generally i'm not a fan of all this focus on worship (in terms of music) in churches, i don't see Jesus as a worship leader, i see him much more as a teacher! Sure, singing songs of praise to God celebrating what he has done is fantastic, but i don't think it should be our focus.

 

[Tofur]

Well let me throw in my two cents.

And two more - I'm going to put quotes around the word "worship". The discussion taking place here is making me rethink what "worship" actually is.

Number 1, let me say that I enjoy the "modern worship" much more than the hymns. Hymns are great, and have awesome lyrics. But...the pace, just too slow. I enjoy the music in the new choruses, much more than I enjoy the hymns. But, I also realize that the music is secondary to what is being said. I am guilty, and I'm sure everyone is at one time or another, of becoming too attached to the music and not enough to the words, at times. But I also know from personal experience, that the younger crowd has a more meaningful experience when the music is more modern. The whole "getting into it" deal....it's true. People nowadays like to get up, move themselves along with the beat. That doesn't necesarily mean that they are having any less of an experience with God. It might not be worship, but it lets people experience God and His presence, and moves them deeper into their walk with Him. But, there is also the need to get down on your knees and be reverent, and don't let me make anyone think I'm discounting that. That is integral to a relationship with God. In my church, we balance it...we have uptempo stuff, and then, when we get closer to prayer time, the music takes a slower direction. And admittedly, it is meant to invoke certain emotions. We start out upbeat, but by the time it's time to pray, the slower tempo songs allow people to be more reverent. Prayer isn't an upbeat thing. It can be a happy thing, but you don't get up and jump around while you're praying.

Second of all....all the talk about how "worship music" focuses on self, instead of God. I would argue that it focuses on self, because the songs are us as humans realizing what we need to do in our relationship with God. A few weeks ago, I led the "worship music" part of the service, and the song we used before prayer had these lyrics:

We fall down
We lay our crowns
At the feet of Jesus
The greatness of
His mercy and love
At the feet of Jesus
We cry Holy, Holy, Holy
We cry Holy, Holy, Holy
We cry Holy, Holy, Holy
Is the Lamb

Now, is that worship? Not given the definition I've seen other people use. It's about us, and how we are going to act towards God. But, it is a chorus of admittance, of submission to Jesus. Maybe we are using the term "worship" in a wrong way. And if we are, then perhaps that needs to change. But, the music now serves a dual purpose in many churches - 1. To praise God 2. To humble ourselves, and admit what we have to do in the presence of God, and what we have to do in our relationship with God, and to lead us to do what we need to do in our walk with Him. A song like "Trading My Sorrows" - It does focus on what WE do. But that's not a bad thing by any means. It speaks the truth:

I'm trading my sorrows
I'm trading my shame
I'm laying them down
For the joy of the Lord

So maybe these aren't true "worship choruses", but, they move the people I've seen closer to God, and have helped them spiritually in incredible ways.

Third, the concept of repetitious lyrics. I was at a camp one year, and we sang the Michael W. Smith chorus "Let it Rain.", over, and over, and over again. The entire experience(which was on the end of a chapel service) was somewhere in the realm of two hours?(I wasn't keeping count, someone just threw that number out, and it could have been less. But it was a good amount of time.) And God worked, in a mighty way. People left and right were on their knees pouring their hearts out to God, and having people beside them pray with them. People were changed that night. I see no problem with repeating the same words over again, as long as the heart of the people is being led to God, and God is being experienced, and God's presence is there.

Maybe, what we think is "worship" needs a new term, a new description. But whatever title you put on it, it's awesome.

Wait, you know what, I need one of these back...

*Takes back a penny*

 

[gig]

Great post, Tofur,

Warning: I'm just thinking out loud, here. I hope I don't offend anyone. So...

Isn't worship holistic? It should include all that we are, all of the time. We're not perfect, so maybe that's too comprehensive a statement for reality this side of heaven. During any given corporate worship service, we worship through reading His word, through giving, through music, through singing, through silence, through testimony, and so many other ways. And it seems that none of us has a complete view of what constitutes worship; perhaps new ways are being invented. Or maybe we have 1,000 variations of the same thing.

I guess I'm tired of the whole argument about modern v. traditional worship (tell me where the lines are, anyway). If it draws you closer to God, then it must be good. My singing to God in a worship service is not the sole instance of worship in my life. I'm not undermining the importance of corporate worship--please don't think that!

Anyway, so I lost my train of thought. Has anybody seen it? No? Okay, well I'm gonna go ... do ... something. Hopefully I will do it worshipfully!

gig

 

[coreXian]

When you ask where are the lines anyway between traditional and modern worship songs, I think you bring up a good point. Some of the "modern" songs I've heard put down were actually from a traditional period, just resurfaced many years later in a group that was unfamiliar with it. And it has probably happened the other way around, too.

The importance, in my mind, is whether or not the message is 1)Biblical and 2)heart-felt (or "in spirit and in truth"). This has been mentioned throughout this thread repeatedly, and, I think, gets right to the root of what God values. And it seems that there are both modern and traditional songs that fall into these specifications.

The trick, though, is that one, spirit/heart-felt, is subjective, while the other, truth/Biblical, is objective. So there is room for opinion for whether the song fits you, but not whether the song fits the church. Hope that makes some sense to others besides myself.

 

[Grl4Christ987]

I agree that P&W can be a bit monotnous, and that some songs are just really self-centered, but their are a LOT of songs out there are about God-centered, heart-changing, soul pouring emotion into a song. My favorite P&W song right now is by a band that is not extremely well known by a band named Desperation and the song is called Rescue. This is how the chorus goes:

Cuz I need You Jesus, to come to my rescue;
Where else can I go?
There's no other Name by which I am saved;
Capture me with grace, I will follow
You...

Powerful lyrics. I encourage you to listen to the entire song...but anyways the topic at hand...I do agree that a lot of P&W songs are just about glorifying God, but that's not all God wants us to do when we worship Him. He wants us to listen to His voice that is ever so present during our time of exalting the Lord and Saviour of this Universe, and that's what's lacking I think nowadays in modern Praise and Worship.