Problem with Election

[Butch5]

Considering over 60 Greek scholars translated the verse, yes I'm confident in the Greek and translation.

Please, just a yes or a no.

 

[redleghunter]

Please, just a yes or a no.

I think I just did.

The translators were carefully chosen from the mainstream evangelical denominational groups and respected Christian institutions of higher learning. Some served on the translation committee itself. This was a committee located, for the most part, in the Southern California area. Others served as consultants who reviewed the translation committee's work and made recommendations for improvements. These consultants were chosen from all sections of the United States.

More than fifty who have earned doctorates in Biblical languages worked on the translation of the Scriptures. They actively teach in colleges and seminaries, including Wheaton College, Northwestern Seminary, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Dallas Theological Seminary, Fuller Theological Seminary, Talbot Theological Seminary, California State University, Bethany Nazarene College, Azusa-Pacific College, Bob Jones University, Mennonite Brethren Biblical Seminary, Covenant Theological Seminary, Grace Theological Seminary, Texas Christian University, Seattle Bible School, Southern California College, Westmont College, Point Loma College, and Regent College.

The translators come from Presbyterian, Methodist, American Baptist, Disciples, Southern Baptist, Nazarene, General Association of Regular Baptist, Congregational, Independent Baptist, Free Methodist, and still other denominations. Some have international reputations. All support the philosophy of literal translation and the doctrinal statement of The Lockman Foundation, including the inerrancy of the Scriptures.
The Lockman Foundation - NASB, Amplified Bible, LBLA, and NBLH Bibles

 

[ladodgers6]

I think you may be in too many conversations.

You are talking about pronouns in Ephesians. I am asking okay, what's your point. You bought this up. How does refute Election? Its a fair question to ask?

 

[redleghunter]

I don't believe they can either...not really. Oh they may say that's nonsense, they may claim they fear God and seek to honor him and I'm sure they do in their own way. I believe however that desirability of truly wanting to associate with another IN JOY has to be directly connected to the character one perceives the other to have. Are they good, are they fair or are they just and intuitively we know what those things mean by the conscience God gave man at creation.

Jesus always led men to believe that man's basic concept of right and wrong are not so dissimilar to how God thinks of things. How many times did he say to religious leaders things like if your oxen is in a pit on the sabbath don't you reach down and help it out? Of course you do! Why? Because it's compassionate and just. Or if you then being evil KNOW how to give or do good things to your children...HOW MUCH MORE will God...in other words STOP THINKING I'M SO SEPARATE from your normal way of viewing justice.

Religious leaders of Jesus day wanted to vaunt themselves on their much learning but in the process diminished in man the vision of God being gracious and kind. God according to them was that he was indifferent towards mans plight. If it was the sabbath then let the man die rather then to be healed or helped. Not quite but I somewhat view Calvinism the same way. It leaves the impression that God is so indifferent to such a great many people and the value of their lives? GOD DOES CARE HOWEVER!

God so loved the word that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Back to point...I truly don't believe Calvinists can truly love God although that'll always be denied. There must be times in their quite hours where they say within themselves, "But it just can't be right that God would be just if Calvinism is true." If that's truly what echos deep down in their spirits and minds then in their hearts they know they can't love a being like that. BUT some might call that merely my opinion.

Who is "they?"

 

[Butch5]

I think I just did.

The translators were carefully chosen from the mainstream evangelical denominational groups and respected Christian institutions of higher learning. Some served on the translation committee itself. This was a committee located, for the most part, in the Southern California area. Others served as consultants who reviewed the translation committee's work and made recommendations for improvements. These consultants were chosen from all sections of the United States.

More than fifty who have earned doctorates in Biblical languages worked on the translation of the Scriptures. They actively teach in colleges and seminaries, including Wheaton College, Northwestern Seminary, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Dallas Theological Seminary, Fuller Theological Seminary, Talbot Theological Seminary, California State University, Bethany Nazarene College, Azusa-Pacific College, Bob Jones University, Mennonite Brethren Biblical Seminary, Covenant Theological Seminary, Grace Theological Seminary, Texas Christian University, Seattle Bible School, Southern California College, Westmont College, Point Loma College, and Regent College.

The translators come from Presbyterian, Methodist, American Baptist, Disciples, Southern Baptist, Nazarene, General Association of Regular Baptist, Congregational, Independent Baptist, Free Methodist, and still other denominations. Some have international reputations. All support the philosophy of literal translation and the doctrinal statement of The Lockman Foundation, including the inerrancy of the Scriptures.
The Lockman Foundation - NASB, Amplified Bible, LBLA, and NBLH Bibles

Where the translators come from is irrelevant. Does the Greek text take priority over the translation? It's either yes or no.

Just look at the list of where the translators come from. They all read the same Scriptures yet look at all of the denominations list. So, they read the same Scriptures but have all different doctrines. Obviously someone isn't understanding the Scriptures correctly. Presbyterians believe in unconditional election, Methodists don't. If they can't agree on what the Scriptures teach why should I trust their translation?

 

[Butch5]

You are talking about pronouns in Ephesians. I am asking okay, what's your point. You bought this up. How does refute Election? Its a fair question to ask?

I brought it up and explained it way back in post #351. Here we are almost 600 posts later and you're asking me to explain it again. verses 3-12 in Ephesians 1 is a Hebraism. It's a praise to God for what He has done for Israel. It's not about Christians. The one's who were chosen before the casting down of the system, that is translated, 'foundation of the world', is Israel, not Christians. Paul makes that clear by using first and second person personal plural pronouns. Us and you indicates two different groups.

 

[redleghunter]

Mark 6:52
For they had not understood about the loaves, because their heart was hardened.
Mark 8:17
But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “Why do you reason because you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive nor understand? Is your heart still hardened?
John 12:40
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”
Acts 19:9
But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them and withdrew the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus.
Romans 9:18
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

These are the very same verses atheists have posted to me but with a different spin of course. They believe these verses show God is some type of "cosmic meanie."

Getting a similar undertow on this thread.

 

[redleghunter]

Where the translators come from is irrelevant. Does the Greek text take priority over the translation? It's either yes or no.

Just look at the list of where the translators come from. They all read the same Scriptures yet look at all of the denominations list. So, they read the same Scriptures but have all different doctrines. Obviously someone isn't understanding the Scriptures correctly. Presbyterians believe in unconditional election, Methodists don't. If they can't agree on what the Scriptures teach why should I trust their translation?

Yes a very diverse group of Calvinists and Arminians and they came to the same conclusion. Even Nazarenes! That's actually strength for my point.

So 60 or so Hebrew and Koine Greek language scholars are wrong but Butch is right.

Got it.

 

[ladodgers6]

I brought it up and explained it way back in post #351. Here we are almost 600 posts later and you're asking me to explain it again. verses 3-12 in Ephesians 1 is a Hebraism. It's a praise to God for what He has done for Israel. It's not about Christians. The one's who were chosen before the casting down of the system, that is translated, 'foundation of the world', is Israel, not Christians. Paul makes that clear by using first and second person personal plural pronouns. Us and you indicates two different groups.

Nevermind

 

[ladodgers6]

I'm not sure why you posted this Sproul didn't have a good grasp of the Scriptures. The Reformed position is simply illogical.

Wow! Such a judgmental post without a single shred of data to back it up.

 

[ladodgers6]

Of course it's clear to you. That's how you understand it. The question is is that understanding correct? What is the context of the passage? When Paul says the natural man who is he referring to? These are all questions we need to answer in order to understand the passage.

I already answered you question. Adam was to be in charge of the creation, but he messed up. He disobeyed God and ate from the tree of knowledge. Through this act sin entered the world

Why all the hostility all of sudden? Are we not debating. I did say I am speaking for myself here. No need to get angry.

 

[sdowney717]

Ephesians 1 is not the only text that proves election of individuals before time began.
All those God saves had God's holy calling given to them before time began, that they would be in Christ.
This is according to God's purpose and grace for His elect who will believe the gospel, even though they do not yet believe. The elect are not even aware of their own election before they believe, but God knew them and loved them first with a great love, so He made them alive who were dead at the appointed time of His choosing determined entirely by the Father according to His own good pleasure, with no input from the man.

2 Timothy 1:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Ashamed of the Gospel

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Galatians 1:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

 

[ladodgers6]

Ephesians 1 is not the only text that proves election of individuals before time began.
All those God saves had God's holy calling given to them before time began, that they would be in Christ.
This is according to God's purpose and grace for His elect who will believe the gospel, even though they do not yet believe. The elect are not even aware of their own election before they believe, but God knew them and loved them first with a great love, so He made them alive who were dead at the appointed time of His choosing determined entirely by the Father according to His own good pleasure, with no input from the man.

2 Timothy 1:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Ashamed of the Gospel

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Galatians 1:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

Excellent post, great insight!

The doctrine of God's sovereign election is not an arcane item found rarely in obscure passages of Scripture, nor does it require the pursuit of a diligent scholar to uncover it. The doctrine of election appears on virtually every page of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. No section of Scripture sets it forth, however, more definitively and persuasively than Romans 9.

I can't remember where I hear or read this? Anyway, I am paraphrasing here: If one does not to this question when reading & understanding Romans 9. Then they haven't understood it.

Romans 9:14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part?

Paul is already anticipating the objection. So Paul beats them to the punch! By asking the objection question. And then answering it.

Romans 9:By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

 

[ladodgers6]

Ephesians 1 is not the only text that proves election of individuals before time began.
All those God saves had God's holy calling given to them before time began, that they would be in Christ.
This is according to God's purpose and grace for His elect who will believe the gospel, even though they do not yet believe. The elect are not even aware of their own election before they believe, but God knew them and loved them first with a great love, so He made them alive who were dead at the appointed time of His choosing determined entirely by the Father according to His own good pleasure, with no input from the man.

2 Timothy 1:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Ashamed of the Gospel

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Galatians 1:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

Here are some of my favorites:

The Golden Chain of Salvation Romans 8:28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Notice the adjectives are in the past tense.

Romans 9:11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls

Romans 9:
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

Paul is anticipating the objection; is God unjust?

Romans 8:33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who then is the one who condemns?

The Scriptures are so clear on this. I do not understand how people can argue this? Paul answer this in the following verses:

34Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sometimes I wonder if the election crowd is so busy deciding what God does in terms of choosing some for hell and others for heaven for no reason spending great time and energy on defending this doctrine, that how God actually works in life now and in dealings with men in the past is neglected. I exchange a bit with you guys but my heart is really after knowing God which is why He does what He does. This is where I have put my time and energy in my life. The matters of eternity for others and God's part is not as pressing as my part, for me. I do not answer for what God does but I do answer for what I think of Him and being convinced early on that God was good, I asked to understand His goodness in places where it did not appear to be the case. Each time God explained Himself to me. This is where I put my energy. "Show me your face that I might know you" and His answer was "seek my face, daughter" essentially.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, but a mother will guide her child, even as an adult.

The mother who runs out and saves a child from an oncoming car is not merely "guiding" him/her. You are changing the story. God does guide those who want to be guided. Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and follow. He did not say he is carrying all his sheep and then needs do nothing.

Don't you think to an all knowing God we are merely small infants ourselves?[/qu0te]

God told Job to stand up and speak to him like a man, I think. Paul said he gave up childish things when he became a man. God created grown-ups in Adam and Eve, not too babies. Paul wrote to the church to want meat and not milk (baby food.) So no, we are not small infants to God. He knows the difference between babies and adults.

Exactly proving my point. If God is Love, and Paul gives us that definition, then how you can say that man's love cannot keep a record of wrongs, but God's love can?

Because we are not called to keep a record as the Judge of the whole Earth. He does and is. IF the bible promises anything, it promises justice which means wrongs are recorded and will be accounted for. ANything else is not love. There is no love is justice is ignored forever. Do yo use what I mean?

How does that make sense? If God keeps a record of your wrongs and chooses not to protect you, how can you say He loves you? Does the mother in my analogy love her child more than God loves his children?[/quote

]If we are talking God and his interactions in the lives of men, you need to use adult examples. None of the recorded conversations between God and men sound like a mother dealing with a very small child. None of them. They are all conversatons of a father or head of an organization dealing with beloved sons who have a vital role to play and they share both a relationship and a task. In your senerio, does the 70 year old mother still do exactly the same protection for her 40 year old son? Is that a good mother who rescues him all the time from his mistakes? Is that really loving?

It is very clear from the Bible and real life that it rains on the just and unjust. This is really important to understand. The men and women who walked really close with God had very difficult and uncomfortable lives according to earth standards. And some were tortured as they died including Jesus. Do you see that if we judge God's love by how much He protects us from unpleasantness, we are making a mistake? Does God protect us? Yes. That is my experience and yours I assume. Does He protect us from all the troubles of this life? No. JEsus said there would be troubles but to be of good cheer for he has overcome them, not promised to protect us from there. Again, this is really important. I once left the faith because God did not protect me and I thought I had lost everything I had worked years for. But that false theology got loped off of me and it was good because greater sorrows were to come, but since that experience, I turned to Him for comfort, not blamed him.

As to keeping records, this is love and justice. It is for believers and unbelievers although forgiven sin is wiped off. This is justice for those who suffered from the sin of others. When a child (grown or not) knows that those in power will do justly in the end despite the other children (or adults) doing wrong, there is a comfort in that. Shall God ignore the wickedness men have done to others? Do you see how this is not love but hatred or a love of evil?

On the flip side, God's love for His children is so profound, so powerful, so eternal that He always protects, always trusts, and the elect's sins are completely and forever blotted out, through both His Promise and His Son, Jesus.

Well, where do you get the scripture that says that God always protects? Jesus promised problems. He himself was not protected. Jesus did not always trust men. Why do you think God does? The Bible says Jesus knew what was in men and did not trust himself to man. Does not sound like God's love always trusts. Would be pretty naive. Only sins repe3nted of and pled for forgiveness for are blotted out. Those sins that are repeatedly committed and cherished and protected are right there in bold. John wrote that when we sin we ask forgiveness and he is faithful and just and will forgive. But the promise is not made, obviously, for sins not repented of nor for future sins. He does ot give carte blank to sin cause he is no longer writing them down.

We will stand and give an account of the deeds done in the body whether good or evil. No question that that day is coming.

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil! Why do you fear? [No one can resist God's Will!

Why did Jesus tell us to pray that God's will be done if no one can resist it anyway? Because men resist the will of God. Look at the world. Do you really think every man all the time is doing the will of a loving God? Why didn't Jesus tell us to pray the sun comes up every morning? Because it comes up every morning and we need not pray for that. We pray for things that do not otherwise happen. God is not playing games with us telling us to do what is set to happen no matter what. I can give you scriptures where it says people resist God.

There is a God. Yahweh, who sent His Son, Jesus to die and be resurrected for the sin's of the elect, whom where secured and purchased before the foundation of the world. All things to the glory of the Father.

No where does the Bible teach this. The plan was before the foundation of the world. The book of life was set before the foundation of the world. But who is participating and how and whose names are to be written was not set before the foundation of the world. The plan is set. Who plays what role is not. That is up to us. Scary but true. Anything else is gross injustice and more evil than the Devil. When my brother or sister Calvinist stands before God and has to tell Him that they assumed He was so injust as to choose to send some men to hell before they were born for no reason instead of loving all men and wanting all to be saved, it will be a very grevious moment for them. I would that they repent and see God as totally just instead of defending the theology that lays the worst injustice on him imaginable.

Or do you believe God's just up there, crying over all the pain and suffering in the world, powerless to do anything about it? A loving God would do everything in His power to ensure those objects of His love are always protected, even from themselves.

I know that God is crying over the evil in the world. I know because I have shared that suffering with him to the degree I could bear it. I know He is not powerless but there is more than being either powerless or a tyrant performing some kind of lobotomy on men so they cannot but be saved. A loving God, and He is, loves men enough to give them the precious gift of free choice. Anything less is evil. Even if it costs those beloved men and women eternity and even if it costs God his only begotten Son. The price was not too high for Him to bear because of the reward.

Again, should the mother in the seneriou have a lobotomy performed on her beloved child to spare that child harm? You realize if she did this, the child would never suffer from the mistakes it might make. Is that really loving?

I have made your points bold because I cannot figure out where the problem is in the usual difference. No other intention there. Wanted to show what you said and the quote /quote is wrong and i have no idea where.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

So here are a couple of profound arguments addressing corporate election from an article by Bible scholar extraordinaire Daniel B. Wallace:

"Fifth, this leads to the issue of election in relation to depravity. I would encourage you to again look at the essay I have posted on the bsf website called “My Understanding of the Biblical Doctrine of Election.” The basic point is that if we cannot take one step toward God (Rom 3:10-13), if we are unable to respond to anything outside the realm of sin (Eph 2:1), then if anyone is ever to get saved, God must take the initiative. This initiative cannot be simply corporate; he must initiate in the case of each individual. Eph 2:1-10 is explicitly about God’s initiation in the case of individual believers; this sets the stage for 2:11-22 in which corporate election is seen. But there can be no corporate election unless there is first individual election. Corporate election, at bottom, is a denial of total depravity. Or, to put it another way, if corporate election is true and if total depravity is true, then no one will ever get saved because no one will ever freely choose to be in Christ. Only by the gracious initiative of God does anyone ever choose Christ.

Sixth, corporate election offers no assurance of anything to the individual. If election is corporate only, then the promises given to the elect are only given to them corporately. This would mean that we cannot claim individual promises about our salvation. This would include the promise of eternal security. Paul writes, “who will bring any charge against God’s elect?” (Rom 8:33)—an allusion to the election of the Son (Isa 50:8). This allusion suggests that God looks on us as he looks on his own Son. But if we read this as saying that only groups are chosen, then the charge that is brought against the elect must be a corporate charge. How does that offer any comfort to the individual? To be consistent with a corporate-only view, when Paul says, “Who will separate us from the love of Christ?”(Rom 8:35), we would have to read that corporately. It would not be a promise to individuals (and it is interesting that Paul says “us” not “me” in vv. 35-39; his lone reference to himself is in the line “I am convinced” [v 38]). If election is only corporate, then eternal security is only offered on a corporate plane. No personal assurance can take place. The irony is that those who hold to corporate election often also hold to eternal security. They don’t realize the extreme inconsistency in their views. You can’t have it both ways: either we are individually chosen by a free act of God’s will and are eternally secure, or we are neither." Daniel B. Wallace, Corporate Election article​

 

[DeaconDean]

This was not directed at you. Where do you think it was? There is no "you are a child" like "do you have amnesia" which was an insult.

When you directly quote me, and then say:

But the matter is for grown-ups and not children in their understanding.

That is proof positive that comment/insult is directly pointed at me.

It don't take a "child" or somebody else to tell me that.

It's plain. Period.

And from your actions, comments, insults, I'd rather not even associate/discuss matters with you.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

So here are a couple of profound arguments addressing corporate election from an article by Bible scholar extraordinaire Daniel B. Wallace:

"Fifth, this leads to the issue of election in relation to depravity. I would encourage you to again look at the essay I have posted on the bsf website called “My Understanding of the Biblical Doctrine of Election.” The basic point is that if we cannot take one step toward God (Rom 3:10-13), if we are unable to respond to anything outside the realm of sin (Eph 2:1), then if anyone is ever to get saved, God must take the initiative. This initiative cannot be simply corporate; he must initiate in the case of each individual. Eph 2:1-10 is explicitly about God’s initiation in the case of individual believers; this sets the stage for 2:11-22 in which corporate election is seen. But there can be no corporate election unless there is first individual election. Corporate election, at bottom, is a denial of total depravity. Or, to put it another way, if corporate election is true and if total depravity is true, then no one will ever get saved because no one will ever freely choose to be in Christ. Only by the gracious initiative of God does anyone ever choose Christ.

Sixth, corporate election offers no assurance of anything to the individual. If election is corporate only, then the promises given to the elect are only given to them corporately. This would mean that we cannot claim individual promises about our salvation. This would include the promise of eternal security. Paul writes, “who will bring any charge against God’s elect?” (Rom 8:33)—an allusion to the election of the Son (Isa 50:8). This allusion suggests that God looks on us as he looks on his own Son. But if we read this as saying that only groups are chosen, then the charge that is brought against the elect must be a corporate charge. How does that offer any comfort to the individual? To be consistent with a corporate-only view, when Paul says, “Who will separate us from the love of Christ?”(Rom 8:35), we would have to read that corporately. It would not be a promise to individuals (and it is interesting that Paul says “us” not “me” in vv. 35-39; his lone reference to himself is in the line “I am convinced” [v 38]). If election is only corporate, then eternal security is only offered on a corporate plane. No personal assurance can take place. The irony is that those who hold to corporate election often also hold to eternal security. They don’t realize the extreme inconsistency in their views. You can’t have it both ways: either we are individually chosen by a free act of God’s will and are eternally secure, or we are neither." Daniel B. Wallace, Corporate Election article​

Here is a short statement that I'm sure will start something:

"The Sovereignty Of God may be defined as the exercise of His supremacy (see preceding chapter). Infinitely elevated above the highest creature, He is the Most High, Lord of heaven and earth; subject to none, influenced by none, absolutely independent. God does as He pleases, only as He pleases, always as He pleases. None can thwart Him, none can hinder Him. So His own Word expressly declares: "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" (Isa. 46:10); "He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay His hand" (Dan. 4:35). Divine sovereignty means that God is God in fact, as well as in name, that He is on the throne of the universe, directing all things, working all things "after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:11).

Rightly did the late Charles Haddon Spurgeon say in his sermon on Matthew 20:15:

There is no attribute more comforting to His children than that of God’s Sovereignty. Under the most adverse circumstances, in the most severe trials, they believe that Sovereignty has ordained their afflictions, that Sovereignty overrules them, and that Sovereignty will sanctify them all. There is nothing for which the children ought more earnestly to contend than the doctrine of their Master over all creation—the Kingship of God over all the works of His own hands—the Throne of God and His right to sit upon that Throne.

On the other hand, there is no doctrine more hated by worldings, no truth of which they have made such a football, as the great, stupendous, but yet most certain doctrine of the Sovereignty of the infinite Jehovah. Men will allow God to be everywhere except on His throne. They will allow Him to be in His workshop to fashion worlds and make stars. They will allow Him to be in His almonry to dispense His alms and bestow His bounties.

They will allow Him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillars thereof, or light the lamps of heaven, or rule the waves of the evermoving ocean; but when God ascends His throne, His creatures then gnash their teeth, and we proclaim an enthroned God, and His right to do as He wills with His own, to dispose of His creatures as He thinks well, without consulting them in the matter; then it is that we are hissed and execrated, and then it is that men turn a deaf ear to us, for God on His throne is not the God they love. But it is God upon the throne that we love to preach. It is God upon His throne whom we trust."

The Attributes of God, Arthur W. Pink, Chapter VI, The Sovereignty of God

I don't think I need to say more. That said it all!

Unsubscribing.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[JLB777]

Ephesians 1 is not the only text that proves election of individuals before time began.
All those God saves had God's holy calling given to them before time began, that they would be in Christ.
This is according to God's purpose and grace for His elect who will believe the gospel, even though they do not yet believe. The elect are not even aware of their own election before they believe, but God knew them and loved them first with a great love, so He made them alive who were dead at the appointed time of His choosing determined entirely by the Father according to His own good pleasure, with no input from the man.

2 Timothy 1:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
Not Ashamed of the Gospel

8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Galatians 1:15-17 New King James Version (NKJV)
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

Yes Paul was indeed called to preach the Gospel, being a son of the kingdom.

However, he still had to make the same choices everyone does to keep his flesh in subjection.


But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:27


JLB