Problem with Election

[redleghunter]

Anyone who is not 'of the Elect' should leave this thread immediately!

Maybe an elect staff can close this train wreck.

 

[Anto9us]

Isaiah 45:7

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Anto9us]

2 Peter 1:10

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Ya did do something good today to make your election SURE, dincha? Good. Enjoy the Snickers bar!

 

[ladodgers6]

Anyone who is not 'of the Elect' should leave this thread immediately!

Anyone who is not 'of the Elect' should leave this thread immediately!

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[Anto9us]

 

[ladodgers6]

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[Radagast]

You do understand that the Church and state were as one in Calvin's time?

You do understand that that is not true?

Geneva in Calvin's time was a democracy. Calvin had no role in the government: he was merely employed as a preacher. Indeed, at the time that Servetus was burned, an anti-Calvin council had just been elected, and they came close to tossing him out.

Calvin was not, as someone else has suggested "a magistrate."

 

[Radagast]

Anyone who is not 'of the Elect' should leave this thread immediately!

Only God knows who the Elect are.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

You do understand that that is not true?

Geneva in Calvin's time was a democracy. Calvin had no role in the government: he was merely employed as a preacher. Indeed, at the time that Servetus was burned, an anti-Calvin council had just been elected, and they came close to tossing him out.

Calvin was not, as someone else has suggested "a magistrate."

Thank you for clearing that up. It strengthens an important point. Please understand though, I do always try to be accurate, but in weakness fall short at times. Yours in Christ, A_W

 

[JoeP222w]

With some of the comments thus far it seems the opposing view is "foreknown" is God sees man choose Him and then predestines him.

Not making any sense to me. Sounds like a deist design.

It all comes down to: Is God sovereign or is man sovereign? I believe that God is sovereign and I believe that Bible supports this because before the work of God's grace, man is dead in his sin and trespasses and thus has no ability to choose God, in and of himself. Therefore, man has no reason to boast in himself but only in God.

The opposing view rejects the sovereignty and freedom of God to choose and glorifies man rather than God.

 

[sdowney717]

As to why many won't get on as I've said Jesus was clear about that. LIGHT came but men loved darkness rather than LIGHT because their deeds were evil (or are evil today) I think what you're asking me about the universal idea of salvation that everyone should have equal amount of understanding I suppose similar to the question of what if someone has never heard the gospel. Here's one thing we're told that God has put the knowing of the creator by looking at creation.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20

I think it's probably the case that groups or individuals who have never heard the gospel most likely have had God tug at their hearts encouraging them with the very thought to call out upon God to reveal himself in a greater light. In most nations upon the Earth I'd say that's not really a problem. Most have heard about Jesus or are about to.

Unredeemed people do not ask the true God (Christ) for greater light. Your ideas are false.
They may ask Satan as god for greater light by sacrificing to demons. You do know all the gentiles sacrifice to demons and not the one true God in Christ. And there are also false Christs which are Satanic.

Ephesians 2 says all people are Satan followers and children of wrath.
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

The minds of all people are blinded to the gospel by the god of this world.
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

It is by grace that you are saved.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

God has shown His light out from within the hearts of those He has made born again.
6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

If anyone repents and believes in the one true God and His Son Christ, this means they are already been born again, because of their changed heart.
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The heart of man scripture says is desperately wicked. So it can only be changed by God making us born again so that we can see - perceive Christ. John 3:3, and believe in Christ. Belief in Christ is only by revelation of the truth from God to us personally, and He does that by giving you a new heart, a new spirit FIRST so you can acknowledge and worship Him.

The problem is you do not believe in salvation by grace. You define grace as man working on his own thoughts and hearts to bring himself to God and that this is available to all people because of general revelation of God in the things that He has made.
But the verse you quoted saves no one, it shows their condemnation of unbelief, not belief.

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20

So why will you continue to be boldly arrogant against this grace of God that saves?

 

[sdowney717]

Acts 16:14 New King James Version (NKJV)
14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

Here is the grace of God in Christ that saves.
The Lord opened her heart, so that she could heed and believe.
He did this by revelation to her newborn of God heart.

 

[sdowney717]

Acts 4, these rulers of Israel did not believe even though a notable miracle had occurred. This shows their unchanged evil heart. So they seek to turn away people from God in Christ, yet they considered themselves God's children having the truth as do all them that zealously guard their own false traditional religions. But all of them are deceived and wicked.

16 saying, “What shall we do to these men? For, indeed, that a [a]notable miracle has been done through them is evident to all who dwell in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 But so that it spreads no further among the people, let us severely threaten them, that from now on they speak to no man in this name.”

18 So they called them and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. 20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.” 21 So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way of punishing them, because of the people, since they all glorified God for what had been done. 22 For the man was over forty years old on whom this miracle of healing had been performed.

 

[BobRyan]

May I ask: Why do you believe God created any rule that would result in the punishment of hell?

Because the Bible tells us so.

Just like the Bible tells us that election is based on God's foreknowledge not in the absence of it.

=========================================
1 Peter 1
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

"elect according to foreknowledge" -- is very different from arbitrary selection. "Foreknowledge of what?". Foreknowledge of what would happen in the future. Who would accept and who would not.

"I stand at the door and knock IF anyone hears My void AND opens the door... I WILL come in" Rev 3

Rom 8: 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,

Foreknew what? --- answer - their choice.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

So then not too surprising to find "God is not partial" Rom 2:11 -- just when Calvinism's form of election says He most certainly is.

"What more could I have done - that I have not done" asks God in Isaiah 5:4

Surely in that case above - Calvinism makes God the author of His own lament.

If ever there was "election" there is in the case of "His own"
"He came to His own - and His own received Him not" John 1:11

"O Jerusalem...how I wanted to spare your children... but you would not" Matthew 23

God "in lament" just when Clavinism's election says no-such-thing can exist for our sovereign God.

 

[MyGivenNameIsKeith]

It seems my post was clear.
I really don't know what else to say.

Is not Israel, God's own chosen people? Set apart from everyone else all throughout scriptures??
And as believers, grafted into his people, are we not then the same family of chosen? Thing that seems hard to understand for most is the fact that God did set apart those from before the world began, and simultaneously gave all free will. Seeing as we all have free will and deserve to die the death anyways, (all have sinned and come short...[Romans 3:23]) the only saving grace is God's grace......not your theology on the elect doesn't exist or not. Because when it comes down to it.....at the end of all things....when we're in heaven.....and those that are saved are rejoicing with the Lord....
was it God's will that you were with him? Or your own?
Seeing as how it's his will be done....I would venture to say...
elect.
As I said before...the stumbling block here is the fact that you have free will at the same time.

 

[BobRyan]

No please, I would like very much to hear your beliefs. And don't worry this ugly Calvinist is a tame one...lol. But I still don't see why some do while others do not? In universal ideas to salvation; everyone should have a equal amount of understanding, or choice to enter or not. But where I am not sure in respect for your premise. Is if everyone has full understanding where the train is going; to heaven and live forever, or stay behind and die & suffer. Why wouldn't everybody get on? I am not trying to trick you or trap you. I am asking a honest question, that's all.

There is no such thing as "saved by a more complete story" - the Gospel reaches all mankind in the basics.

Thus "I will draw ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32 and not "I will inform all mankind of every possible detail in the Gospel".

And also "The Holy Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" not just the elect whom God knows in His foreknowledge will accept.

And the result is Rom 2:13-16 that those who have no access to the Bible details at all - are in some case saved and the New Covenant promise of the "Law written on the heart" by the Holy Spirit can be seen in them.

That is not universalism
It is also not universal informationism where all have the exact same degree of gospel details available to them.

James 4:17 "to him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin"

 

[sdowney717]

Cornelius God says He had already cleansed His heart, verse 15 before Peter goes to preach to his household. God showed the vision 3 times to Peter, so Peter knew it was of God that he go.

15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

So Cornelius's heart had been turned to the one true God (in Christ) already, as born again , so he could see and perceive the kingdom of God, but his salvation was not yet complete, he had not been sealed by the Holy Spirit at this time which does not occur until after you trust in Christ for your personal salvation by believing in Christ. Cornelius was not yet fully aware of the truth in Christ, yet he had been given the new heart by God so that he could hear and believe. Cornelius had been granted by God to come to Christ.
Most assuredly is spoken with emphasis as something to pay heed to when God speaks you better listen and understand. And you better comprehend that 'see' here means to pay attention to, to notice, to perceive, it does not mean 'enter' in this particular verse.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

John 6
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 10 New King James Version (NKJV)

Cornelius Sends a Delegation
10 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian [a]Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. 3 About [c]the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius!”

4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, “What is it, lord?”

So he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa, and send for Simon whose surname is Peter. 6 He is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea. He[d] will tell you what you must do.” 7 And when the angel who spoke to him had departed, Cornelius called two of his household servants and a devout soldier from among those who waited on him continually. 8 So when he had explained all these things to them, he sent them to Joppa.

Peter’s Vision
9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about [e]the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”

14 But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.”

15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has [f]cleansed you must not call common.” 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

 

[BobRyan]

Is not Israel, God's own chosen people? Set apart from everyone else all throughout scriptures??

Indeed "His own" - God sovereignly selected them to be His evangelists under the Nation-Church model of evangelism.

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

I have been predestined by God's sovereign will - to expose the flaws in Calvinism as it fails to pass the sola scriptura test. Who am I to fight God on this point?

 

[Bobber]

Unredeemed people do not ask the true God (Christ) for greater light. Your ideas are false.

Tell that to the people who have done that very thing! All through the years I've heard testimonies of people who didn't know who God was and called out, "God if you're real please show me!" And according to their testimony he did and they became Christians. I read even on one of these boards not just a few weeks ago of one who had said they were an atheist but they called out the very thing...and things began to happen and are Christians today. So you would stand before them and tell them you doubt their salvation?

They may ask Satan as god for greater light by sacrificing to demons. You do know all the gentiles sacrifice to demons and not the one true God in Christ.

All gentiles sacrifice to demons? I don't recall ever doing that before I was saved.

 

[98cwitr]

That would make him a dictator. And in fact, the worse dictator of all time manipulating the inside of men for his own purposes. Satan is less evil than this sort of being. Satan hates every man equally and has no particular people he chooses for his place predestining them to come no matter what. He might lose them in the end and he knows it. The dictator manipulating men is making them lose no matter what.

Proverbs 16:9
Proverbs 20:24
Isaiah 45:7
Job 1