Problem with Election

[ladodgers6]

"John Calvin’s Reign of Terror

In 5 years as magistrate of the Geneva “church-city-state,” Calvin oversaw 58 death sentences and the exile of 76 people. He wasn't the sole decision-maker in those cases, but personal correspondence and city council records betray his extraordinary influence. When Jacques Gruet, a theologian with differing views, placed a letter in Calvin’s pulpit calling him a hypocrite, he was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547. Gruet's own theological book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch."
Nonsense. He was in charge of the city.

"Michael Servetus, a Spaniard, physician, scientist and Bible scholar, suffered a worse fate. He was Calvin's longtime friend who resisted the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. However, he angered Calvin by returning a copy of Calvin's Institutes with critical comments in the margins. The next time Servetus attended Calvin's Sunday preaching service on a visit, Calvin had him arrested and charged with heresy. The 38 official charges included rejection of the Trinity and infant baptism. Servetus pleaded to be beheaded instead of the more brutal method of burning at the stake, but Calvin and the city council refused the quicker death method."

This is just history. The thing that surprised me at first until I ran into it over and over again, is the same spirit of intolerance in Calvin and Geneva under his tyranny forms in the attitudes of Calvinists today. The blank intolerance of any other thought was so similar to Calvin's intolerance it was amazing, This intolerance was not seen in Germany where Luther actually did not have any politival power. So in looking into the life and deeds of Calvin, I found that same spirit. Very unchristlike intolerance that surfaces easily when opposed. It is a fruit of the theology that runs through those who embrace it many times not seen in those who embrace other theologies as consistantly. Will be hotly contested by Calvinsists as they oppose the (and any) idea that disagrees with the teachings of Calvin, but the information is very helpful to those who engage with them. This unchristlike intolerance not of sin but of disagreement is remarkable.

What Really Happened Between John Calvin and Michael Servetus​

When I first told a pastor friend of mine that I started a twitter account dedicated to the Reformer’s words, the first thing he said was, “You mean the guy who burned people at the stake?”

This was coming from an elder.

How much more would the average Christian layperson accuse Calvin unjustly?

When people think about Calvin burning people at the stake, the person that usually comes to mind is Michael Servetus. I won’t go into full details (If you want,

from the 2009 National Desiring God conference where they discuss this issue in full detail). But I’ll give you the gist here.

So, this Michael Servetus guy. He was born the same year as Calvin. Born of Spanish notability, he was utterly brilliant, and had experience in astronomy, medicine, mathematics, and theology. Had he not gone Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, he probably would shine in our minds as a prominent figure of the renaissance era.

Instead, we’ll forever remember him as a heretic.

Where things started to go wrong was in 1531, when Servetus released a book called, On the Errors of The Trinity, in which he maligns traditional, orthodox Christianity for having embraced the Trinitarian understanding of God – that is, One God in three distinct persons; equal in divinity, but distinct in ministry. Servetus did not hold the traditional Christian position. A few years later, Servetus began to write Calvin letters. Again: Michael Servetus is the one who started this whole thing.

Servetus wrote to Calvin. And Calvin wrote back. This happened repeatedly for many years as they debated and discussed various theological matters. At first, Servetus’ tone was respectable, as if he wrote general inquiries. He seemed interested in learning from Calvin. Over time, however, Servetus became accusatory, cutting, and dismissive of Calvin. And at some point, Calvin stopped writing back.

In 1553, Servetus published another work. This book had two purposes: to further attack the doctrine of the Trinity, and personally slander the character of John Calvin. Problem is, Servetus is in France, and France is a catholic country. And at that time, open heresy was against the law (both in Geneva, Protestant communities, in Catholic communities, and all over). When authorities found out about the book, Servetus was charged and arrested for open heresy. Hersey was a crime, and if you break the law, you pay the price – burning at the stake, the standard punishment at the time.

They tried Servetus and eventually sentenced him to be burned at the stake. So now Servetus is in jail, waiting to be burned. The governing authorities were so mad at him that they demanded he should be burned slowly. There he was in jail, with no lively prospect of escape. John Calvin actually opposed people being burned at the stake. In fact, he even wrote a letter to the city council begging them not to burn Servetus.

Let me be clear: Calvin proposed that Servetus be executed by the sword but was opposing that he be burned at the stake. What did the city council say to Calvin? The city council said no, and they burned Servetus at the sake. Calvin did not burn Michael Servetus at the stake. It was not Calvin’s fault at all.

In fact, Calvin & Servetus grew up together. Calvin bumps heads with the government at that time, about execution for heresy. Calvin suggested that not everyone needed to be executed for heresy, each case should be review independently. Calvin was cast out of Geneva early in His office for disagreeing with the governing council at that time. Calvin was not allowed in the proceedings of Servetus. Because Servetus up-set the Catholic Church with such vehement. They were going to make an example out of him! They requested that he burnt slow. Calvin of no value could save Servetus. Calvin even went to visit his old friend in jail, to have him recant his beliefs, so that he would live. But Servetus was having none of it.

Calvin even warned Servetus not to come to Geneva because Calvin could not grant him safety, because of his shaky ground with the governing council. But stubborn Servetus for whatever reason (maybe a death wish) went to Geneva, where he was spotted, of all places, in the front row in Calvin's church heckling him! He was immediately arrested.

Anyway, when Calvin knew that he could not make any headway with the governing council. Calvin suggested to the council to execute Servetus by Sword, because it would be quick and painless. Instead of being roasted slowing by fire. Calvin was trying to spare his friend long suffering. Calvin even wrote about this event in his book.

So, that’s it. That’s what happened.

Sure, Calvin had many faults. You can say he was an arrogant man. You can say he was short with his critics. You can also make fun of him for being shy and awkward. All of these things are true. But you can’t say that Calvin had Michael Servetus burned at the stake, because that simply didn’t happen.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The law of Christ does not change for those who follow Him. You probably forget that we read the writings of men who lived in the first century and no Christian thinks "different times" regarding what we are instructed to do. But then again, I am not a Calvinist and I can accept and obey the teaching of Christ as he taught it. I do not have to invent different moral standards for different times to hide the truth.

Ah but you do hold double standards, or do you feel the same about King David as you do John Calvin? You do understand that the Church and state were as one in Calvin's time?

 

[ladodgers6]

But not where Luther lived. Not where Wesley lived either. ANd certainly not where John, Peter, Paul and Jesus lived. Deny evolution is some places and your life isn't worth anything anymore. Tyranny of the mind still exists and did then. The point is who is insisting on it and why.

Execution for heresy was the Law of the land, around the world even, back then. So to suggest that evil Calvin command Servetus to be murdered, is a flat out lie!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

As you were taking us on a tour of the 16th century, I actually responded to the OP topic in a couple posts. Specifically the following which you may have missed:

You are right, I missed it. But it did not take long to see the problem in your post and thinking. You made bold and underlined the bits you like. The bits where God is doing something. What you left out is the bit we must fulfill. That is God works together all thing for good for those who LOVE GOD. They also need to be personally called fulfilling his purpose. Now his purpose is not merely that they go to Heaven. Since many who believe the doctrines of Calvin have no problem at all with attributing evil to God although they call it by different words, one can deduce they do not love God. If they loved him, they would not embrace doctrines that attribute moral evil to Him. They would not defend that evil by saying "they don't know" or "God can do whatever (evil) He likes."

There is a requirement for God to work things to good for men. And it is one we have to do, we have to choose. He is not choosing to love Himself in us and through us like some narcissistic tyrant.

 

[ladodgers6]

I would like to see you justify the fact that Calvin was so hated by those who knew him that they threw his body in an unmarked grave, the height of hating a man holding public office. As for the rest, I am sure there are lots of stories on how he was sorry and how the others felt and so on painting him to be less evil than the facts. This is done because the facts are prettry danming so lets invent feelings of those involved so he looks better than he was.

Those living under Calvins hated him. I suppose those in power with him liked the power they got a well so they were different. The helpers to tyrants always like the state of tyranny.

LOL...…..Now I have heard everything! Calvin dying wish was to be buried in an unmarked grave. Because He did not want people to worship his grave site. To him it was all about Christus solus!!!

 

[ladodgers6]

Your team seems to be ignorant of European history. I am educating them.

No your not. Your bias information is misleading!!!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ah but you do hold double standards, or do you feel the same about King David as you do John Calvin? You do understand that the Church and state were as one in Calvin's time?

David repented of the evil he did. Calvin did not. Same standard. ANd I did not mention king David but he is easily defended as he bitterly repented. Calvin not at all.

Now as to church as state, Luther was definately a church leader if not thee church leader in his day and held no political power. Sorry but he did not. Calvin siezed power and made laws for the people including no ice skating for kids. You do realize that there is a pretty big difference between making laws and enforcing them by death and merely writing and preaching, right?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Calvin did not demand the "sinner" in his eyes be let go to repent on another day. Can you imagine Jesus doing this? being a party to and supporting fully the excruciating painful death of a man because he disagrees with your theology? And people follow him.... THis tells anyone with an open mind the kind of man Calvin was. And if one embraces Calvinism, he starts to become like the founder as far as possible.

The lengthy post defending Calvin's actions heavily interprets or changes history on many points trying to excuse him. What cannot be changed is the undeniable evidence that the citizens of Geneva hated Calvin and dumped his dead body in an unmarked grave giving it no love and no honor as it done to this day to men and women the city or nation loved. There is a reason why they hated him. And that piece of evidence shows they hated him a lot.

Are Calvinists brothers and sisters in Christ? Are Calvinists Christians? What say you?

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

David repented of the evil he did. Calvin did not. Same standard. ANd I did not mention king David but he is easily defended as he bitterly repented. Calvin not at all.

Now as to church as state, Luther was definately a church leader if not thee church leader in his day and held no political power. Sorry but he did not. Calvin siezed power and made laws for the people including no ice skating for kids. You do realize that there is a pretty big difference between making laws and enforcing them by death and merely writing and preaching, right?

How would you even know if Calvin repented? Dorothy Mae a heart reader? Seem to be the case, I taste her wrath even now, bitter as it is.

 

[ladodgers6]

Thanks for sharing. My question is still not answered. But thanks anyway.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Are Calvinists brothers and sisters in Christ? Are Calvinists Christians? What say you?

Some of them are among the elect, of course.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

LOL...…..Now I have heard everything! Calvin dying wish was to be buried in an unmarked grave. Because He did not want people to worship his grave site. To him it was all about Christus solus!!!

You are joking right? I guess you guys make this up. But unfortuntely for you I read German and read what the Genevaites wrote about him. They hated him and threw his body in an unmarked grave.

But let us take your position. The man was in power in Geneva for how many decades? And he was afraid that decades under h is tyranny the people he taught and wrote books for would commit the very terrible sin of idolatry???? Really????? He thought that his teaching those people for all those decades would bear so little fruit that they would worship his grave???? Saw no change in the lives of the men and women although they had never worshipped anyone's grave before that day but hey, who knows. This is really weak.

OK, Lad, you are grasping at straws that your ignorance allows. The people hated him and he knew it and so did they but if one will lie to oneself about the theology, I guess lying to oneself about the history is a lot easier.

I leave you calvinites to your myths. I am just glad no calvinites are ruling cities or nations anymore.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

"John Calvin’s Reign of Terror

In 5 years as magistrate of the Geneva “church-city-state,” Calvin oversaw 58 death sentences and the exile of 76 people. He wasn't the sole decision-maker in those cases, but personal correspondence and city council records betray his extraordinary influence. When Jacques Gruet, a theologian with differing views, placed a letter in Calvin’s pulpit calling him a hypocrite, he was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547. Gruet's own theological book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch."
Nonsense. He was in charge of the city.

"Michael Servetus, a Spaniard, physician, scientist and Bible scholar, suffered a worse fate. He was Calvin's longtime friend who resisted the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. However, he angered Calvin by returning a copy of Calvin's Institutes with critical comments in the margins. The next time Servetus attended Calvin's Sunday preaching service on a visit, Calvin had him arrested and charged with heresy. The 38 official charges included rejection of the Trinity and infant baptism. Servetus pleaded to be beheaded instead of the more brutal method of burning at the stake, but Calvin and the city council refused the quicker death method."

This is just history. The thing that surprised me at first until I ran into it over and over again, is the same spirit of intolerance in Calvin and Geneva under his tyranny forms in the attitudes of Calvinists today. The blank intolerance of any other thought was so similar to Calvin's intolerance it was amazing, This intolerance was not seen in Germany where Luther actually did not have any politival power. So in looking into the life and deeds of Calvin, I found that same spirit. Very unchristlike intolerance that surfaces easily when opposed. It is a fruit of the theology that runs through those who embrace it many times not seen in those who embrace other theologies as consistantly. Will be hotly contested by Calvinsists as they oppose the (and any) idea that disagrees with the teachings of Calvin, but the information is very helpful to those who engage with them. This unchristlike intolerance not of sin but of disagreement is remarkable.

No links, no source references, no context, nothing, just more poison for the well.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Some of them are among the elect, of course.

Thank you brother, I only had one person in mind though in asking. So far as I am concerned the elect have been in the Church from the time of the Apostles to today. Some are Catholic, some are EO, some are Protestant, etc. etc. and all are Christian. And of course this runs contrary to what Dorothy has been telling us about Calvinists.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

No your not. Your bias information is misleading!!!

To say the very least.

 

[ladodgers6]

You are joking right? I guess you guys make this up. But unfortuntely for you I read German and read what the Genevaites wrote about him. They hated him and threw his body in an unmarked grave.

But let us take your position. The man was in power in Geneva for how many decades? And he was afraid that decades under h is tyranny the people he taught and wrote books for would commit the very terrible sin of idolatry???? Really????? He thought that his teaching those people for all those decades would bear so little fruit that they would worship his grave???? Saw no change in the lives of the men and women although they had never worshipped anyone's grave before that day but hey, who knows. This is really weak.

OK, Lad, you are grasping at straws that your ignorance allows. The people hated him and he knew it and so did they but if one will lie to oneself about the theology, I guess lying to oneself about the history is a lot easier.

I leave you calvinites to your myths. I am just glad no calvinites are ruling cities or nations anymore.

Really????? The Reformers were wanted men by the Catholic Church. Because the Reformers were illuminating the common folks who could not read Latin, Greek, or Hebrew. They were leaders with many, many, many followers. But you are saying that Calvin was dumped like Hoffer? Because every Genevaite hated him??? Or are you talking about a handful of people. If so many did hate him. Why not murder him or cast him out? I am very familiar with Luther's bio. He was the first reformer I learned from. And I was a big nerd when it came to the Reformers and the Reformation!

BTW, do you know that the Reformers did not want to destroy the Catholic Church, they wanted to reform to back to Scripture.

 

[Anto9us]

Anyone who is not 'of the Elect' should leave this thread immediately!

 

[redleghunter]

The law of Christ does not change for those who follow Him. You probably forget that we read the writings of men who lived in the first century and no Christian thinks "different times" regarding what we are instructed to do. But then again, I am not a Calvinist and I can accept and obey the teaching of Christ as he taught it. I do not have to invent different moral standards for different times to hide the truth.

I think you missed the important historical point. John Wesley lived almost 200 years after the European blood letting over religion. It was a much different time. Your comparison was anachronistic.

 

[ladodgers6]

The Unmarked Tomb of a Well-Known Soldier​

David Mathis
Twitter
@davidcmathis
David Mathis is executive editor for desiringGod.org and pastor at Cities Church in Minneapolis. He is a husband, father of four, and author of Habits of Grace: Enjoying Jesus through the Spiritual Disciplines.

Today many of us in the United States will visit cemeteries and find other ways to honor those who made the ultimate sacrifice while serving in the Armed Forces.

Memorial Day, observed annually on the last Monday of May, began in the nineteenth century as Decoration Day in memory of those who died in the American Civil War. It soon included all who died in military service — especially following World War II — and the name was officially changed to Memorial Day in 1967.

Remembering Those Who Went Before​

Not to be confused with Veterans Day (November 11), which honors all military veterans (both those who died in service and those who did not), Memorial Day has become an occasion, over time, for broader expressions of memory, including deceased relatives and other loved ones who have gone before us.

In this spirit, it’s fitting that Memorial Day 2013 falls on May 27, the day John Calvin died — 449 years ago today. Likely no other Christian in the last 500 years, save only Martin Luther, has exerted such an influence. Below is how we tell the story of his death in the book With Calvin in the Theater of God.

Almost Dead Before Fifty​

Calvin fell deathly ill in the winter of 1558 at age forty-nine. He thought himself at death’s doorstep and so turned his few remaining energies to his final revision of his Institutes. Until this time, he hadn’t been fully pleased with the shape and content of his often-revised magnum opus. Wanting to leave the church with a definitive edition, he worked feverishly, despite the fever, to finish it.

His health returned in the spring of 1559, and he soon returned to the pulpit. It was at this time that Denis Raguenier began taking extended shorthand notes on Calvin’s sermons, since he didn’t prepare manuscripts but preached extemporaneously. The sermon manuscripts of Calvin we have today are largely owing to Raguenier’s unflagging and far-sighted labors.

Founding the Academy, Translating the Institutes​

Also in 1559, Calvin and sidekick Theodore Beza founded the Academy of Geneva. Beza would serve as its day-in, day-out head, and before long the Academy would become famous across Europe and produce lasting effects long after Calvin’s death.

In his final five years, Calvin translated the final edition of the Institutes into French, wrote a large commentary on the Pentateuch, and preached and lectured almost tirelessly. Almost. At barely fifty years old he was battling increasing illness and frailty, but his labors continued unceasing. There were seasons of sickness followed by renewed strength.

Buried in an Unmarked Grave​

The great Reformer began slowing for the final time in February 1564. Soon it was too draining to preach and lecture. He spent his final months bedridden and died May 27, 1564, just weeks shy of his fifty-fifth birthday.

Calvin could tell in his lifetime that he’d likely be remembered long after his death. So he took pains to fade as namelessly from this world as he could. He requested burial in an unmarked grave hoping to prevent pilgrims from coming to see his resting place and engaging in the kind of idolatry he’d spent his lifetime standing against.

In death, he completed his life’s labors, not seeking to make much of Calvin, but striving with all his might to point beyond himself to the One who saved him and was his greatest joy, the only One most worthy of being made much of — the one who truly had made for his church the Ultimate Sacrifice.

Desiring God books on John Calvin (free PDF available for each):

• With Calvin in the Theater of God (edited by John Piper and David Mathis)
  
  
• John Calvin and His Passion for the Majesty of God (by John Piper)
  
  
• Portrait of Calvin (by T.H.L. Parker)

David Mathis (@davidcmathis) is executive editor for desiringGod.org and pastor at Cities Church in Minneapolis. He is a husband, father of four, and author of Habits of Grace: Enjoying Jesus through the Spiritual Disciplines.
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[redleghunter]

You are right, I missed it. But it did not take long to see the problem in your post and thinking. You made bold and underlined the bits you like. The bits where God is doing something. What you left out is the bit we must fulfill. That is God works together all thing for good for those who LOVE GOD. They also need to be personally called fulfilling his purpose. Now his purpose is not merely that they go to Heaven. Since many who believe the doctrines of Calvin have no problem at all with attributing evil to God although they call it by different words, one can deduce they do not love God. If they loved him, they would not embrace doctrines that attribute moral evil to Him. They would not defend that evil by saying "they don't know" or "God can do whatever (evil) He likes."

There is a requirement for God to work things to good for men. And it is one we have to do, we have to choose. He is not choosing to love Himself in us and through us like some narcissistic tyrant.

Are you willing to address the text or not? The above does not. It is an assertion packed statement not addressing the relevant Scriptures.

I bolded areas to show the relevance to the OP topic. I know how novel of me to keep on topic.