Problem with Election

[GodsGrace101]

Already answered this one. OSAS is a made up derogatory term Arminians use as a straw man.

Predestination is taught in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1-2

Yes. I know.
Impossible to come up with any support for your incorrect beliefs.

Nuff said.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Until you actually respond to the entire chapter which clearly delineates divine election.

Your answer is "it's about Israel." Sure but what Paul is discussing is how God shows mercy on whom He pleases and hardens who He desires.

Well, since I'm so wrong, why don't YOU exegete the entire chapter of Romans, using hermeneutics please and not what you've been taught in your church.

 

[GodsGrace101]

And what could be any more clear that he speaks of people being saved and yet they must HOLD FAST to the word which was preached to them. If they don't they would have believed in vain.

Good catch.
Calvin taught perseverance of the saints, which is a little different from eternals security or osas as we understand it today.

However, you're right. They teach osas but it's obvious from reading the N.T. that salvation can indeed be lost.
2 Chronicles 15:2
2 Timothy 2:12

God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Jesus died for everyone.
Now it's up to everyone to receive his free gift.

Agreed
Seems simple, doesn't it?
So many verses have to be twisted to mean something they don't intend to mean for Calvin's theories to be correct.

Putting aside the fact that we should be following Jesus and the Apostles and not a man...

 

[GodsGrace101]

It does. However, those who hold to that position have to make illogical claims to hold to that position. For instance, they'll say that God controls all things yet is not the author of sin. That is a logical contradiction. One can't control everything and something not be in one's control. The Biblical doctrine of Election is quite different than the Reformer's doctrine of Election.

 

[ladodgers6]

The theology that teaches what you present assumes that no man can ever long for God or be drawn to want to know if there is a God. If we test this in real life this is not the case at all. The evidence for the choice being layed on men is seen in the devotion to preaching the good news that those men had from John the Baptist to the apostle John. If God were doing it all because no man can repent because of some literal dead state, then they wasted their time. So they did not think that no man can repent unless God first changes him. Jesus never said to them that they are all dead in their sins and cannot respond to the Gospel anyway, which is what this theology says.

Thanks for sharing. I beg to differ to what you have wrote here. We never said that sinners do not know there is a God. We said that sinners do not choose God without being made ALIVE to believe first. I am wondering what is your take on sin & the fallen plight? Do you find goodness in sinners toward God?

Are you implying that sinners are not Dead in Trespasses & Sins, or in bondage to Sin? You give to much credit to the fallen sinner. You believe sinners desire God without Grace? Let's look at Scripture.

By Grace Through Faith​

1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

When we were Dead in trespasses & sins. How did we walk? What desires did we seek? Was it God? Or were we following the prince of the power of the air (which is Satan)?

It is God who is rich in Mercy & Love that made us Alive from the dead! Not while we were seeking him or desiring him! In our worst condition God saves us! This is called Grace! This is a Divine work of God. Is it the work or effort of the sinner to desire God, here? Show me please! Because even our Faith is a gift from God to believe! By regenerating sinners by the Holy Spirit, the heart of stone (Dead Heart) is taken away, and we are given New Hearts (Alive Hearts) and New Minds to believe and follow God. We now desire God, because His Son has set the captives free from the bondage of sin, death and Satan. By defeating all at the Cross for sinners!

I am only sharing. I already know you will not agree with me. But if you seek the truth, like I do! Then read these passages and pray to God for wisdom in Christ to show you the truth.

So my answer is that this theology makes something concrete and material out of what was actually only a metaphor. Being dead in sin is a metaphor for a hardness of heart that occurs as one continually engages in sin. It is not an actually literal deadness. No one spoke of repentance as being resurrected which would need to occur if men were actually dead in sin.

I beg to differ. If sin is only a metaphor that it only hardens the heart when one continually engages in sin. Then we could just stop sinning ourselves without Divine Grace from God. So what do I need a Savior? I possess the power to lift myself up by the boot scraps, and dust myself off. And overcome sin with my efforts to desire change!

Jesus said that no one comes to the Father unless the Father draws him. Drawing means He calls but it also means we must respond. That is what is expected from God's viewpoint and why we preach. God draws men but they have to come. How shall they come if we do not tell them? So we tell them. It is not all God all the time doing all of it.

If sinner can choose God without God's Grace. Then this means we can even save ourselves.lf the sinner possesses the natural ability to overcome sin & Satan. The they can do much more. Stop sinning all together, fulfill the Law, and be saved!

But that's not what it says, does it? The Father does the drawing. Why does the Father have to Draw in the first place? If sinners can choose without Grace?

What is Grace?

Grace is God’s unmerited favor to ill-deserving sinners in Jesus Christ. The presence of the risen Christ, extending God’s forgiveness and power so that God’s provision of His Son for redemption is effected through the agency of the Holy Spirit in the heart of man.

Grace is eternal (II Tim. 1:9), immutable (Rom. 11:29), sovereign (Rom. 9:11-24), effectual (Eph. 2:8-9; John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65), and destroys all room for human boasting (I Cor. 1:29-31; 4:7). It means that the Triune God gets all the praise, honor, and glory for our salvation: The Father for planning it, the Son for purchasing it, and the Holy Spirit for applying and uniting us to it (Eph. 1:2-14). Christ is not only efficient, but is alone sufficient for salvation (Heb 9:12; 10:10) such that our own merit or works righteousness can do nothing to either attain or maintain our justification. The assistance of grace does not even depend on the humility or obedience of man ... for it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble ...as the Apostle says, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7), and, "But by the grace of God I am what I am" (1 Cor. 15:10). Faith is, therefore, not a product of our unregenerated human nature (John 1:13, 6:63-65; Rom 9:16) but is exercised as the infallible result of the work of the Holy Spirit opening our eyes and ears to the beauty of the gospel, turning our heart of stone to a heart of flesh and uniting us to Christ.
Monergism.com

Hope this helps??

God Bless!

In Christ, Our redemption, Justification, and Sanctification 1 Cor. 1:30

 

[GodsGrace101]

You asked: “Could you show me one verse that states Jesus died only for a select few?”

Answer: Easily. The most familiar NT quote is John 3:16-- Jesus died for whoever would believe in Him. It does not say how many or how few, but it would require belief. Billions have not believed.
In Matthew 7:13–14, Jesus did say, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." The condition of salvation, the way, is faith in Jesus Christ. And ”faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ” and Jesus said that His sheep would hear Him.

Good try.
You yourself have said that
FAITH COMES BY HEARING
...HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.

If faith comes by hearing...
YOU HEAR FIRST...
Then you have faith and believe.

On this you're right.

And luckily for mankind, God has revealed Himself to ALL MEN.
Romans 1:19-20
John 12:32 ALL MEN...ALL

all
ɔːl/
predeterminer, determiner, & pronoun

1. 1.
   used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing.
   "all the people I met"
   sinonimi: each of, each one of the, every one of the, every single one of the; Altro

adverb

1. 1.
   completely.
   "dressed all in black"
   sinonimi: completely, fully, entirely, totally, wholly, absolutely, utterly, outright, thoroughly, altogether, quite, in every respect, in all respects, without reservation, without exception
   "he was dressed all in black"
   • 
     
2. 2.
   (in games) used after a number to indicate an equal score.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I understand exactly what I believe.
What you say Reformed theology teaches is different from what it teaches. That is easy to see simply by reading what the WCF says.

The WCF came complete with "proof texts". I can't do your homework for you.

Just be sure that you differentiate between what you think Reform theology "amounts to" and what it actually teaches. There is a big difference.

Anyone can see that from looking at your posts and comparing them to the WCF. That's why I provided it to you so you can compare it's conclusions concerning what the scriptures teach and what you have said they believe.

What on earth are you talking about?

Predestination was taught by Paul, Peter and Jesus.

The predestination of all things which happen in God's creation is also the necessary logical conclusion of a belief in the omniscience of God - even if it were not taught directly by the Lord and His apostles.

God knew before the foundation of the world exactly what would happen if He acted in certain ways. There was absolutely no chance at all that what God knew would happen would not indeed happen.

He has so acted and has continued to act in innumerable ways - thereby making it God who predestines all things by so choosing to act.

I can only state what the scriptures teach and what logic demands. I can't do your thinking for you.

Jesus was not asleep when He said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life." John 5:24

Get yourself a good Bible and take a break from talking about things you know nothing about.

You say God predestines all things.
So God predestines rape, murder, war, cancer...
Nice god you serve there....

My God is a loving and merciful and just God.
If I thought HE caused all of the above, I'd stop worshipping Him immediately, if not sooner.

 

[GodsGrace101]

What??? "Predestination did not exist before 1500 AD?" So you do not believe in the New Testament scriptures? Peter said Paul's writings were scripture. The Christian Church (virtually every early church) believed Paul was an Apostle chosen by Jesus per the Damascus Road experience in Acts, and that his letters were holy scripture.

Please pick out whatever version of the New Testament you like, then examine Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Timothy 1:9, and of course almost all of Romans 9. Then tell me again that predestination was an idea that occurred 1500 years after Jesus.

Not only do I believe in the N.T. scriptures,
but I also believe in those that taught that learned from the Apostles and those that came immediately after.

And they DID NOT believe in eternal security. And no one did till Calvin in 1,500 AD.

Ignatius, A.D. 110
Do not err, my brothers. Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If, then, those who do this in regard to the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with anyone who corrupts the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified, by wicked doctrine? Such a person, becoming defiled, shall go away into everlasting fire and so shall everyone that listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16)

Pray also for me, for I need your love along with the mercy of God so that I may be worthy of the duty for which I am destined and so that I will not be found reprobate. (Letter to the Trallians 12)

Pseudo-Barnabas, A.D. 120 - 130
We take earnest heed in these last days, for the whole time of your faith will profit you nothing unless now, in this wicked time, we also withstand coming sources of danger, as befits the sons of God. (Letter of Barnabas 4)

Each person will receive as he has done. If he is righteous, his righteousness will precede him. If he is wicked, the reward of wickedness is before him. Take heed, lest resting at our ease as those who are the called ones, we should fall asleep in our sins, and the wicked prince should acquire power over us and thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. Consider this all the more, brothers, when you reflect and see that after such great signs and wonders were done in Israel, they were abandoned. Let us beware, lest we be found as it is written, "Many are called, but few are chosen" [Matt. 22:14]. (Letter of Barnabas 4)



Let us, then, repent with our whole heart, that none of us may perish needlessly. For if we have commands and [if we] engage in withdrawing from idols and instructing others, then how much more should we not perish because we already know God.

Let us therefore help one another and lift up the weak in what is good so that all of us may be saved, convert, and admonish one another.

Let us not only seem to believe and pay attention when we are admonished by the elders, but let us also remember the commandments of the Lord when we return home. Let us not be allured away by worldly lusts, but let us draw near to one another very often in order to try to make progress in the Lord's commands. In this way, when we all have the same mind, we will be gathered together for life, for the Lord said, "I come to gather all nations and languages."

This refers to the day of his appearing, when he will come and redeem us—each one according to his works. The unbelievers will see his glory and might, and when they see the empire of the world in Jesus, they will be surprised. They will say, "Woe to us, because you were, and we did not know you, did not believe, and did not obey the elders who clearly explain our salvation."

"Their worm shall not die, nor shall their fire be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh" (Is. 66:24).

He speaks of the great day of judgment, when they shall see those among us who were guilty of ungodliness and erred in their estimate of the commands of Jesus Christ.

The righteous will have succeeded both in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul. They will give glory to God when they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in unquenchable fire. They will give glory to their God and say, "There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart." (Second Clement 17)

 

[ladodgers6]

Good try.
You yourself have said that
FAITH COMES BY HEARING
...HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.

If faith comes by hearing...
YOU HEAR FIRST...
Then you have faith and believe.

On this you're right.

And luckily for mankind, God has revealed Himself to ALL MEN.
Romans 1:19-20
John 12:32 ALL MEN...ALL

all
ɔːl/
predeterminer, determiner, & pronoun

1. 1.
   used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing.
   "all the people I met"
   sinonimi: each of, each one of the, every one of the, every single one of the; Altro

adverb

1. 1.
   completely.
   "dressed all in black"
   sinonimi: completely, fully, entirely, totally, wholly, absolutely, utterly, outright, thoroughly, altogether, quite, in every respect, in all respects, without reservation, without exception
   "he was dressed all in black"
2. 2.
   (in games) used after a number to indicate an equal score.

In Reformed Theology we teach that Faith does come by hearing the Word of God! And we also teach that the Gospel is to be preached to all MEN! Yes, God has revealed himself to mankind! We are on the same page so far.

So what's your point?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So, if you say I am being unreasonable are you attacking my character? What if I was actually being unreasonable and arguing from my emotions rather than my reason? Would that make me malevolent and of poor character or would that mean I simply a was not using reason and instead using emotion as the basis for my argument? BTW, I do not recall talking about you at all. I was under the impression that I was addressing your argument and not attacking you personally. If I find your argument to be subjective it does not mean I find you to be evil.

You did not say that. You said I was ignoring you. That is, I was purposely choosing wrong. I did not say you were unreasonable. Can you stick to what was said please? Being unreasonable in any case is known to be in a moment regarding a certain point. Ignoring someone is purposefully done.

What I see is that you are unaware of when you attack a person. You were not addressing the argument but me. Saying I was ignoring is saying I am willfully choosing to do wrong. If I do not see an argument, then this not character. That is the difference. Frankly, your praising yourself is very very subjective and I find your position to be entirely subjective. It is based solely on your own feelings in the matter.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If God is all-loving, and
God is omnipotent,
why does evil exist?

So many questions, so little time.

When one knows Him, the answers become clear. Just wanted to throw in that one can know answers to these and the other hard questions. We are not left in the dark. It is just that the light is expensive. As I said, casual inquirers are not given any information worth talking about.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In Reformed Theology we teach that Faith does come by hearing the Word of God! And we also teach that the Gospel is to be preached to all MEN! Yes, God has revealed himself to mankind! We are on the same page so far.

So what's your point?

The problem is Calvinist theology is such that one really not need to any of that since God has preselected who will go to Heaven and they cannot miss even if no one preaches the Gospel to them and they never repent and He has equally preselected who is going to Hell and they cannot miss hell even if they repent in tears and loud crys. They are doomed. So preaching the Gospel makes no sense really to reformed thinkers. They need this thinking to be reformed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If God can raise sons of Abraham from stone, then He is completely able to dictate the human heart.

That would make him a dictator. And in fact, the worse dictator of all time manipulating the inside of men for his own purposes. Satan is less evil than this sort of being. Satan hates every man equally and has no particular people he chooses for his place predestining them to come no matter what. He might lose them in the end and he knows it. The dictator manipulating men is making them lose no matter what.

 

[ladodgers6]

The problem is Calvinist theology is such that one really not need to any of that since God has preselected who will go to Heaven and they cannot miss even if no one preaches the Gospel to them and they never repent and He has equally preselected who is going to Hell and they cannot miss hell even if they repent in tears and loud crys. They are doomed. So preaching the Gospel makes no sense really to reformed thinkers. They need this thinking to be reformed.

Thanks for sharing. Question? Please explain your view of Sin? Our condition before a Holy God?

 

[Bobber]

Satan hates every man equally and has no particular people he chooses for his place predestining them to come no matter what. He might lose them in the end and he knows it. The dictator manipulating men is making them lose no matter what.

And here's a thought. Why is it that Satan's not willing that anyone should be saved but all should be lost and that means 100% of humanity BUT God wouldn't be the opposite...Not willing that any 100% of humanity should perish but all should come to repentance?

 

[MyGivenNameIsKeith]

This says a lot about me. But it doesn't say enough about God...

God is love.
1 John 4:8

God is merciful.
Deuteronomy 7:9
2 Corinthians 1:3-4

God is just.
Romans 3:26

This is the God I know.

So how does an elect according to his infinite mercy not vibe with scriptures?
Or "the God you know"?
Either you do believe his Word....(Mark 13:27 And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.)
Or you don't...

Because it sounds a lot like your limited understanding of who God is, prompts you to think you know righteousness better than he does?

 

[Radagast]

I get that. But in strict election, if you want to leave you can't.

You are misunderstanding election. The non-elect never believe, and they never want to.

 

[Radagast]

Amusing yourself with toys is not the most fulfilling life to be lifed

Now you're just saying silly things in order to avoid the implications of the illustration.

 

[Radagast]

Reformed theology requires God forcing people to do what they do not want to do

That is an utter falsehood.

I can only assume that you totally misunderstand Reformed theology.