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Problem with Election

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Butch5

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No one is likely to argue against the fact that through Abraham, Israel was a chosen people.
In your opinion, is the Church the new Israel? Is Election now all about faith in Christ? (which of course would include 'completed Jews.')

My answer would be no. It's still about Israel. Election is still about the nation of Israel. In Romans, Paul addresses the Gentile believers in the church at Rome and he tells them that they have been grafted into Israel. In Galatians he explains how those who have been baptized with Christ have become Abraham's seed and heir according to the promise. The promise that he is talking about is the land that God promised to Abraham.

15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee. (Gen. 13:15-17 KJV)

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. (Gen. 17:7-8 KJV)

God told Abraham that He would give him all the land that he could see. The promise was made to Abraham and his seed. The land was also promised to Isaac and Jacob. Abraham never received that land.

2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child. (Acts 7:2-5 KJV)

So God promised the land to Abraham but Stephen says that Abraham never received it. That means the only way that Abraham can receive the promise is through the Resurrection.

Notice what Isaac says to Jacob.

And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.
2 Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother.
3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;
4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. (Gen. 28:1-4 KJV)

Notice here that "the blessing of Abraham" is to inherit the land that God gave to Abraham. This phrase, "the blessing of Abraham" appears only twice in Scripture. It appears here in Genesis and once in Galatians where Paul applies it to the Gentiles.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal. 3:11-14 KJV)

Christ redeemed the Jews from the Law that "the blessing of Abraham" might come on the Gentiles. Remember that "the blessing of Abraham" is the land promise. Paul said that this promise is to the Gentiles also through faith in Christ. He goes on to explain that when God made the promise to Abraham and his Seed, He didn't mean seeds, He meant seed. The Jews understood that the promises were to them because they were the seed of Abraham. However, Paul clarifies this and says that God didn't mean seeds plural. He meant seed singular and that Seed is Christ.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

So, the promises to Abraham and his seed were not to the Jews, but rather to Christ. He is the Seed that the promises were made to. Paul goes on to say that those who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ and if they are Christ's then they are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise, the promise is the land that was promised to Abraham.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Gal. 3:26-29 KJV)

So, when Christ inherits the kingdom, those who are Christ's will inherit it too. This is what Election and Predestination are all about. Israel is God's elect.
 
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Butch5

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Yes. Very human of us. I am glad you are above all that.
I think we all fall into it from time to time. It's just hard to have meaningful discussion on these forums. Alot of what I see I call drive by postings.
 
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Butch5

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Thanks for sharing. I beg to differ. Paul is addressing the church of believers, both Jews & Gentiles. There is no separation between Gentile & Jew. And God chose us BEFORE the foundation of the world.

You didn't give any ground on which you disagree. What in the post did you find wrong?
 
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JIMINZ

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I think we all fall into it from time to time. It's just hard to have meaningful discussion on these forums. Alot of what I see I call drive by postings.

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Maybe it's just that you live 75 miles apart and eat the same Southern cooking, it builds brain power.
 
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dreadnought

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Yeah, they should have stayed in Brooklyn.- - - - - -> LA :doh:
And the Giants in New York, and the Braves in Boston, and the Orioles in St. Louis. Time is a terrible thing.
 
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ladodgers6

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ladodgers6

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You didn't give any ground on which you disagree. What in the post did you find wrong?

My last sentence is my point. He did not address that.
 
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Radagast

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Could we just concentrate on the bible please?

Yes please.

1. Jesus did NOT fail His goal.

Correct.

John 3:16 "For God So Loved the WORLD (everybody) that He gave His only begotten Son....that WHOSOVERE BELIEVETH in HIM, should not perish but have everlasting life."

That looks like number 2 to me.
Of course someone has to BELIEVE in Jesus to be saved....


So that's not number 2 then. Which means that (i) Jesus tried to save everybody and failed (number 1, which you have rightly rejected) or (ii) Jesus did not intend to save every human being.

That leaves...
 
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Jack Meredith

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Election means selection. GOD selects the ones who have demonstrable faith.
By grace are you saved, through faith, and that (faith) is not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Eph. 2:8,9 KJV
"...the life that I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God..." Galatians 2:20 KJV
The phrase "the faith of" Christ, the Son of God, Him, etc. occurs numerous times throughout Scripture. It is not our faith, but His, His gift to us.
"...the righteousness of God [is] revealed from faith (Gr. ek pisteos) to faith as it is written "The just shall live ek pisteos, from (or out of) faith." It is not of us or from us, but in us, of God, and a gift without which we cannot be saved. Christ is the Rock of our salvation. We epi-steos, (e)pisteos, stand upon, abide in Him. He is the Alpha and Omega, author and finisher of our faith, our all in all.
 
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JIMINZ

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Funny Guy, you sound like a triggered Dodger Fan....lol

.
I was born and lived in Queens NY when Both the Giants and the Dodgers moved, but even though they did, I was always a Yankee fan, still am, but sense the mid 80s I like the Braves as well.
 
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Jack Meredith

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...according to [Calvinists], we THINK we have a choice, but we really don't.

IOW, God is tricking us. He's playing games with our mind.

We are self-deluded with sensations and appearances. You are playing games with your mind, as do we all, not God. The work of God is to believe on the One Whom He has sent. John 6:29 KJV
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Thanks for your comments. If I may retort. If God does not choose us for salvation. How can a sinner who is Dead in Trespasses and Sin, and in bondage to sin and this world be saved?
The theology that teaches what you present assumes that no man can ever long for God or be drawn to want to know if there is a God. If we test this in real life this is not the case at all. The evidence for the choice being layed on men is seen in the devotion to preaching the good news that those men had from John the Baptist to the apostle John. If God were doing it all because no man can repent because of some literal dead state, then they wasted their time. So they did not think that no man can repent unless God first changes him. Jesus never said to them that they are all dead in their sins and cannot respond to the Gospel anyway, which is what this theology says.

So my answer is that this theology makes something concrete and material out of what was actually only a metaphor. Being dead in sin is a metaphor for a hardness of heart that occurs as one continually engages in sin. It is not an actually literal deadness. No one spoke of repentance as being resurrected which would need to occur if men were actually dead in sin.

Jesus said that no one comes to the Father unless the Father draws him. Drawing means He calls but it also means we must respond. That is what is expected from God's viewpoint and why we preach. God draws men but they have to come. How shall they come if we do not tell them? So we tell them. It is not all God all the time doing all of it.
 
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