Problem with Election

[JIMINZ]

She said it perfectly, but since I don't have her post in front of me, I'll put it in my own words:

It is my suspicion that the Lord uses Israel as an example for us all. When they obey the Lord, he blesses them. When they don't obey him, he withholds his blessing from him. That is what it means to be the Lord's chosen people.

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I would lean more towards the understanding that He Chastens them, as we all know it's coming for the U.S.

 

[dreadnought]

.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Well, you do have to think things over once in a while. Always having a Bible verse handy to quote only gets you so far.

Not knowing the scriptures will get you nowhere when it comes to Christianity.

 

[Butch5]

I can only speak for myself. I studied the scriptures themselves, comparing passages in many versions long before I learned church history regarding the Reformation and even before I checked out the various commentaries and theologians. I discovered later that what I read and understood happened to be very close to what the Reformers understood and taught. And different from what traditional Catholic doctrine teaches (and of course very different from what LDS, JWs, and even SDA teach). So I chose to attend Fuller Seminary in my late-thirties, with an emphasis on NT studies and early church history. I discovered that there is a wide range of interpretations among all the churches. But my own relatively unbiased interpretations were pretty much confirmed by the majority of Reformation theologians.

We all have presuppositions that we bring to the text. I don't know of any Christian who became one by reading the Scriptures without any outside influence. Most people are indoctrinated very early on. When someone witnesses to the lost they are indoctrinating them, telling them what the says. Once we're told what the Bible says it's difficult to see things differently. That goes for the Reformers too. I would submit that the Reformers are way off base with the doctrines. I believe they were strongly influenced by Augustine rather than the Scriptures. Augustine was a Manichean before becoming a Christian. While he did argue against the the teachings I don't believe he lost all of their influence.

The Biblical doctrine of Election concerns Israel. It's not what the Reformers taught. They use a few proof texts to attempt to support their ideas, but the context of those passages shows otherwise. Likewise the doctrine of Predestination, it's not about God predestining some to be saved and others lost. Again, it's about Israel. When you talk of Sovereignty I'm not sure what you mean since you say you're not a Calvinist. The Calvinist would assert that sovereign includes the idea of controlling all things, which it most certainly does not. Sovereign simply means the ultimate authority. While I agree that God is sovereign, the ultimate authority, I disagree that He controls all things.

 

[Bobber]

But we do not understand His full plan or why some people will not be saved.

No we don't understand God's full plan of everything under the sun. Agreed. We do know however all the principals in regard to Salvation.

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways,'' declares the Lord. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deuteronomy 29: 29

Gods character and nature has been revealed to the human race and these truths belong to us....they're important to us and they're relevant to us. All things that pertain unto life and godliness have been given unto us so that none of us need be ignorant.

 

[ladodgers6]

That's not the Biblical doctrine of Election, it's the Reformers

Thanks for your comments. Okay no problem. I will provide Scripture, and if you would please explain them to us.

Ephesians 1:
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

 

[ladodgers6]

Supporting data? Do you need to have "justice" defined for you?

Never mind.

 

[Bobber]

Why indeed?
1 Corinthians 15:1-2
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

1. The gospel is preached.
2. The gospel is received.
3. The person accepts the gospel.
4. The person is saved.


Romans 10:17
"Faith comes by hearing
And hearing the word of God."

Romans 10:13
"For whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved".

And what could be any more clear that he speaks of people being saved and yet they must HOLD FAST to the word which was preached to them. If they don't they would have believed in vain.

 

[redleghunter]

Not sure what you mean by this in reply to my comment.

No God does not lie.


No to what?

God sovereignly does choose to not save someone. And no, His soveignty in no way diminishes if He chooses to not save someone.

With some of the comments thus far it seems the opposing view is "foreknown" is God sees man choose Him and then predestines him.

Not making any sense to me. Sounds like a deist design.

 

[BobRyan]

Election is the unchangeable purpose of God

1 Peter 1
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

"elect according to foreknowledge" -- is very different from arbitrary selection. "Foreknowledge of what?". Foreknowledge of what would happen in the future. Who would accept and who would not.

"I stand at the door and knock IF anyone hears My void AND opens the door... I WILL come in" Rev 3

"This elect church, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, (equally guilty, equally condemned) God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by Him, and effectually to call and draw (1.7)

interesting "tradition".

Rom 8: 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,

Foreknew what? --- answer - their choice.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

So then not too surprising to find "God is not partial" Rom 2:11 -- just when Calvinism's form of election says He most certainly is.

"What more could I have done - that I have not done" asks God in Isaiah 5:4

Surely in that case above - Calvinism makes God the author of His own lament.

If ever there was "election" there is in the case of "His own"
"He came to His own - and His own received Him not" John 1:11

"O Jerusalem...how I wanted to spare your children... but you would not" Matthew 23

God "in lament" just when Clavinism's election says no-such-thing can exist for our sovereign God.

Thanks for your comments. I do have question. How do you rectify these passages with your beliefs?

You are welcome of course.

Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ​

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
In love 5he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace,

Ephesians 1

Easy - I do not "infer" that "he did NOT predestine us for adoption to sonship... He only predestined those FEW folks over there in Matthew 7"


Rom 8: 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,

Foreknew what? --- answer - their choice.
Those whom He foreknew would choose or do something -- are those predestined.


Eph 1:5 sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will


"God is not WILLing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3.

"God commands that ALL men everywhere repent.

1 Tim 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

1 John 2:2 "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD".

1 John 4:14 "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD"

Eph 1
which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9hed made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

Eph 1
11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Acts 2
23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

He is " the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Rev 13:8

From all eternity past God's plan was laid - and HE would "so love the WORLD that He would give" His only Son. Even though "He would come to HIS OWN and His own would receive Him not"

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

Eph 1
12in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


So while it is true that God knows all the future and who will accept the Gospel - it is also true that God "so loved the WORLD that He gave"... not "just the Jews" and it is true that "God is not WILLing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance".

Calvinism's election is often said to be an arbitrary selection process that is obeying the dictates of God's WILL. yet "God is not WILLing that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance".

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for your comments. Okay no problem. I will provide Scripture, and if you would please explain them to us.

Ephesians 1:
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Sure! Verses 3-12 are what is known as a Hebraism. It's a praise of God. In this section Paul is praising God for what He's done for the Jewish people. Take note that in verses 3-12 Paul uses first person plural pronouns, us, we, and our. Then in verse 13 he switches to second person plural pronouns, you and your. What he's done here is distinguish two different groups, us and you. He includes himself in the "us" group. The "us" group is the Jews and the "you" group is his Gentile readers. This can be seen from verse 12 among other things. In verse 12 Paul says, 'we who before hoped in the Christ'. It was the Jews who had hoped in the Christ, not the Gentiles. If you notice Paul opens the letter this way.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: (Eph. 1:1 KJV)

Notice again, two groups. The saints and the faithful in Jesus Christ. He goes on later in the letter to identify the saints. In chapter 2 Paul draws a distinction between the Jews and the Gentiles.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (Eph. 2:11-19 KJV)

Notice that he said, "you being Gentiles". The "You group" is the Gentiles. He goes on to say that the "you" group was far off. The Jews were nigh. Then he says that in Christ they, the "you" group, are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints. The contrast was between Jew and Gentile. The Gentiles were the "you" group and have now become fellow citizens with the saints, the Jews.

 

[redleghunter]

How many times must I answer to Romans 9???

Until you actually respond to the entire chapter which clearly delineates divine election.

Your answer is "it's about Israel." Sure but what Paul is discussing is how God shows mercy on whom He pleases and hardens who He desires.

 

[redleghunter]

How's about posting some proof that OSAS existed before 1,500 AD and that predestination existed before 400 AD ?
That would be nice.

Already answered this one. OSAS is a made up derogatory term Arminians use as a straw man.

Predestination is taught in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1-2

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

We all have presuppositions that we bring to the text. I don't know of any Christian who became one by reading the Scriptures without any outside influence. Most people are indoctrinated very early on. When someone witnesses to the lost they are indoctrinating them, telling them what the says. Once we're told what the Bible says it's difficult to see things differently. That goes for the Reformers too. I would submit that the Reformers are way off base with the doctrines. I believe they were strongly influenced by Augustine rather than the Scriptures. Augustine was a Manichean before becoming a Christian. While he did argue against the the teachings I don't believe he lost all of their influence.

The Biblical doctrine of Election concerns Israel. It's not what the Reformers taught. They use a few proof texts to attempt to support their ideas, but the context of those passages shows otherwise. Likewise the doctrine of Predestination, it's not about God predestining some to be saved and others lost. Again, it's about Israel. When you talk of Sovereignty I'm not sure what you mean since you say you're not a Calvinist. The Calvinist would assert that sovereign includes the idea of controlling all things, which it most certainly does not. Sovereign simply means the ultimate authority. While I agree that God is sovereign, the ultimate authority, I disagree that He controls all things.

Yep. We are all biased (and cannot help that). It is also true (and a droll observation) that we would not hold the beliefs and opinions that we do if we thought they were wrong. If we are wise, we will cautiously and humbly keep an open mind and keep learning. As G.K. Chesterton said, an open mind for knowledge is like an open mouth for food, its purpose is to close again on something solid. We want our minds to close again on the truth.

As for the sovereignty of God.... God controls all things indirectly. That is, He gave humans (and angels) a certain amount of freedom to choose, even to choose against His will, to rebel. So in this sense, He commands but He does not control us. However, He is omniscient and lives in eternity; He knows past, present, and future. Therefore He also knows what to do ahead of time (probably even before the Creation) to tweak things so that it all comes out exactly according to His plan. He is also omnipotent and omnipresent and can do anything He wants in the present... to affect the future.

It comes down to His permissive will (allowing things to go awry to some extent) versus His perfect will. In the end, His plan (which takes rebellious humans and angels into account) will be fully accomplished and will turn out to have been perfect.

 

[dreadnought]

Not knowing the scriptures will get you nowhere when it comes to Christianity.

The Scriptures point to the Lord. At some point we need to get to know him, don't you think?

 

[dreadnought]

Never mind.

You'd think an LA Dodger fan would know better.

 

[Butch5]

Yep. We are all biased (and cannot help that). It is also true (and a droll observation) that we would not hold the beliefs and opinions that we do if we thought they were wrong. If we are wise, we will cautiously keep an open mind and keep learning. But as G.K. Chesterton said, an open mind for knowledge is like an open mouth for food, its purpose is to close again on something solid. We want our minds to close again on the truth.


As for the sovereignty of God.... God controls all things indirectly. That is, He gave humans (and angels) a certain amount of freedom to choose, even to choose against His will, to rebel. So in this sense, He commands but He does not control us. However, He is omniscient and lives in eternity; He knows past, present, and future. Therefore He also knows what to do ahead of time (probably even before the Creation) to tweak things so that it all comes out exactly according to His plan. It comes down to His permissive will (allowing things to go awry to some extent) versus His perfect will. In the end, His plan (which takes rebellious humans and angels into account) will be fully accomplished and will turn out to have been perfect.

OK, I guess the question is, what is His plan? It's laid in the Scriptures. That what Election and Predestination are about.

 

[JIMINZ]

The Biblical doctrine of Election concerns Israel.

Again, it's about Israel.

Twice in one paragraph, you have said "It's about Israel" I'm not saying your wrong, I would like to know just what it is your belief is concerning Israel.

I too believe it is about Israel, but as I found yesterday someone said what they believed and it is totally off from my belief.

Thanks

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

No we don't understand God's full plan of everything under the sun. Agreed. We do know however all the principals in regard to Salvation.


The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deuteronomy 29: 29

Gods character and nature has been revealed to the human race and these truths belong to us....they're important to us and they're relevant to us. All things that pertain unto life and godliness have been given unto us so that none of us need be ignorant.

Agree. The most important things... that is, those which pertain to the nature of God, our sinful natures, and our potential salvation, have been revealed. But not everything that we might desire to know-- like a full understanding of some paradoxes: predestination vs. human responsibility, the Trinity, Jesus being both God and human, and questions of theodicy (e.g., Why does an all-powerful, all-good God allow such suffering and proliferation of evil as we see and experience in the world?).

 

[Butch5]

Twice in one paragraph, you have said "It's about Israel" I'm not saying your wrong, I would like to know just what it is your belief is concerning Israel.

I too believe it is about Israel, but as I found yesterday someone said what they believed and it is totally off from my belief.

Thanks

Sure, Israel is God's elect. God made certain promises to Abraham. He promised, to make Abraham a great nation, the father of many nations, that all nations would be blessed through him, and to give him all the land that he could see when God was speaking to him. Election and Predestination are the way that God fulfilled these promises. Israel is elect because they are the seed of Abraham. Predestination is of Israel. God predestined or predetermined who He would use Israel to fulfill His promises to Abraham