Problem with Election

[GodsGrace101]

Why the sarcasm? Is that necessary? Are you going to answer the tough questions I posed to you?

You posed tough questions to me?
Where???

 

[GodsGrace101]

You asked: “Could you show me one verse that states Jesus died only for a select few?”

Answer: Easily. The most familiar NT quote is John 3:16-- Jesus died for whoever would believe in Him. It does not say how many or how few, but it would require belief. Billions have not believed.
In Matthew 7:13–14, Jesus did say, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." The condition of salvation, the way, is faith in Jesus Christ. And ”faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ” and Jesus said that His sheep would hear Him.

So are we responsible for our salvation or does good choose us individually?

 

[GodsGrace101]

oh hon, that's not the way it is at all... God IS all good, and He's not sliding people into hell...
there are plenty of places you can go to learn the truth
i'll give you one
bible-truths.com
ok, i'll give you two lol Martin Zender

And what do you think Jesus did with Judas? listen to his 'fate'...

Matthew 19:28 New International Version (NIV)

28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Yep, all 12, present and accounted for.

that last bit is from MY website, you can go there too

Very sweet of you, but no thanks.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You asked: “Could you show me one verse that states Jesus died only for a select few?”

Answer: Easily. The most familiar NT quote is John 3:16-- Jesus died for whoever would believe in Him. It does not say how many or how few, but it would require belief. Billions have not believed.
In Matthew 7:13–14, Jesus did say, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." The condition of salvation, the way, is faith in Jesus Christ. And ”faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ” and Jesus said that His sheep would hear Him.

Maybe you could read some commentaries on John 3:16.

 

[GodsGrace101]

What??? "Predestination did not exist before 1500 AD?" So you do not believe in the New Testament scriptures? Peter said Paul's writings were scripture. The Christian Church (virtually every early church) believed Paul was an Apostle chosen by Jesus per the Damascus Road experience in Acts, and that his letters were holy scripture.

Please pick out whatever version of the New Testament you like, then examine Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Timothy 1:9, and of course almost all of Romans 9. Then tell me again that predestination was an idea that occurred 1500 years after Jesus.

How many early churches were there according to you???

 

[GodsGrace101]

That's the problem.

You need to chatter less and listen more.

I for one would be very happy to answer any questions you may have. But you seem to be more interested in your nasty comebacks than weighing what I say.

Actually, I wasn't speaking to you...

 

[OSAS 101]

Jesus died for everyone.
Now it's up to everyone to receive his free gift.

 

[Butch5]

Due to their study of the scriptures, they just happened to agree with much of Augustine, who was the most biblically literate of the church fathers of his time.

It is rather like some people accusing me of being a Calvinist. I am not a Calvinist because we disagree on a number of issues (theodicy, eschatology, prophecy, Israel, doctrines of the Holy Spirit). But I do believe in the sovereignty of God, election by grace, justification by faith, and predestination-- per the New Testament passages on these things.

Is it per the New Testament or per the Reformers ideas of what the New Testament says about those doctrines? The two are are quite different.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

I believe you meant to say that someone has been telling lies to GodsGrace101.

See above.
Here you go.
Westminster Confession of Faith

I see by the time stamp that it's been about 4 hours since you asked me for enlightenment on the subject. Some of us have another life besides contributing to this thread.

None the less - see the Westminster Confession of Faith with the link above. It is probably the most authoritative source for Reformed beliefs concerning soteriology. It makes it clear that your statements about Reformed beliefs are wrong.

Reformed theology does not allow for God forcing anyone to do anything they are not willing to do.

Predestination and the somewhat related doctrine of election - do not in any way eliminate the free choices made by men (be they elect of reprobate).

Sorry, Marvin, I did confuse a couple of posts and mis-attribute some of her words to you.

And I totally agree, the Westminster Confession of Faith is the appropriate summary of Reformation theology. As for Calvin, few would read Calvin's Institutes of Religion all the way through, but we can find reasonable summaries online.

 

[dreadnought]

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Typical, thanks

Well, you do have to think things over once in a while. Always having a Bible verse handy to quote only gets you so far.

 

[dreadnought]

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I love third person Christian comments, there so becoming.

Well, you were ignoring me.

 

[JIMINZ]

Well, you do have to think things over once in a while. Always having a Bible verse handy to quote only gets you so far.

Never having one doesn't get you anywhere.
An opinion without anything to back it up is nothing more than an opinion.

 

[dreadnought]

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I asked for "YOUR" understanding of what she meant.

She said it perfectly, but since I don't have her post in front of me, I'll put it in my own words:

It is my suspicion that the Lord uses Israel as an example for us all. When they obey the Lord, he blesses them. When they don't obey him, he withholds his blessing from him. That is what it means to be the Lord's chosen people.

 

[JIMINZ]

Well, you were ignoring me.

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Was I? sorry.

 

[dreadnought]

Supporting data would be useful. This is just a vague remark. I cannot say the same for those who reject it.

What do you do with all the passages dealing with Election?

Supporting data? Do you need to have "justice" defined for you?

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Is it per the New Testament or per the Reformers ideas of what the New Testament says about those doctrines? The two are are quite different.

I can only speak for myself. I studied the scriptures themselves, comparing passages in many versions long before I learned church history regarding the Reformation and even before I checked out the various commentaries and theologians. I discovered later that what I read and understood happened to be very close to what the Reformers understood and taught. And different from what traditional Catholic doctrine teaches (and of course very different from what LDS, JWs, and even SDA teach). So I chose to attend Fuller Seminary in my late-thirties, with an emphasis on NT studies and early church history. I discovered that there is a wide range of interpretations among all the churches. But my own relatively unbiased interpretations were pretty much confirmed by the majority of Reformation theologians.

 

[dreadnought]

Lol yeah with a heavy dose of assertions.

An assertion is where someone states something as fact presenting absolutely no evidence. An argument is a statement where propositions are made and evidence is presented in support of the proposition.

This thread is a giant assertion burger.

I believe she knows what she is talking about.

 

[dreadnought]

Hell is where those who don't believe in God end up.
Putting non-believers in Heaven would be a mean trick.
They'd go insane.

Hell is where you go when you sin.

 

[dreadnought]

Never having one doesn't get you anywhere.
An opinion without anything to back it up is nothing more than an opinion.

Obeying the Lord gets you to where you want to go, I think.

 

[dreadnought]

.
Was I? sorry.

We'll let it go.