Problem with Election

[redleghunter]

Calvinist "election" -- is little more than "arbitrary selection" of the "few" in Matthew 7 over the "many".

but in Romans 2:11 we find "God is NOT partial" -- which is the opposite of Calvinist "election" because in Calvinist "election" there is not supposed to be one scintilla of difference between a lost person that is elect to become saved... and a lost person who is not.

Romans 2:11 is speaking of God being no respecter of persons when it comes to judgment. When we are adopted as children as we see later in Romans I think it is clear He lavishes love on the elect according to His will.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I don't see that in Scripture. We will only do that which is in our nature to do. Where does our nature come from?



Free will is an illusion of autonomy. We are not our own. We are either slaves to sin (free in sin; "choose today whom you will serve <insertPaganIdol>) or slaves to righteousness (free in Christ).



It makes Him completely trustworthy. A god of free will would allow his children to run into traffic so that he dare not impose on their liberties. The God of the Bible always protects those whom He loves (1 Cor 13)



Seems like sandy ground, but believe as your heart ables you.



God made Hilter in His image...I'm not sure why you point that out. We are to Love Him with our whole hearts and being, and this is the purpose of rebirth (John 3), that we may be in Christ and Christ in us.



Romans 9:22-23

Too late here.
Will answer tomorrow.
Hitler had no love in Him.
God IS LOVE.

 

[GodsGrace101]

That sounds like a lot of choosing.

This sounds like I won't be replying to you anymore.
Only because you're a man of too few words...
And I'm a chatterbox.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

This is too funny.
Are you sure you understand what you believe in???
And because something is written somewhere does not make it correct.

Could you post some writings that would support the Westminster Confession of Faith? Not the bible, since the bible does not teach reformed theology.

Are you aware that predestination did not exist before 1,500 AD except for one theologian back in the year 400 AD.
Why do you think those that came immediately after the Apostles didn't pick up on this idea?

And eternal security, or the preservation of the saints wasn't even thought of till 1,500 AD. Were the earlier theologians fast asleep?

What??? "Predestination did not exist before 1500 AD?" So you do not believe in the New Testament scriptures? Peter said Paul's writings were scripture. The Christian Church (virtually every early church) believed Paul was an Apostle chosen by Jesus per the Damascus Road experience in Acts, and that his letters were holy scripture.

Please pick out whatever version of the New Testament you like, then examine Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Timothy 1:9, and of course almost all of Romans 9. Then tell me again that predestination was an idea that occurred 1500 years after Jesus.

 

[Marvin Knox]

This is too funny.
Are you sure you understand what you believe in???
And because something is written somewhere does not make it correct.
Could you post some writings that would support the Westminster Confession of Faith? Not the bible, since the bible does not teach reformed theology.

I understand exactly what I believe.
What you say Reformed theology teaches is different from what it teaches. That is easy to see simply by reading what the WCF says.

The WCF came complete with "proof texts". I can't do your homework for you.

Just be sure that you differentiate between what you think Reform theology "amounts to" and what it actually teaches. There is a big difference.

Anyone can see that from looking at your posts and comparing them to the WCF. That's why I provided it to you so you can compare it's conclusions concerning what the scriptures teach and what you have said they believe.

Are you aware that predestination did not exist before 1,500 AD except for one theologian back in the year 400 AD.Why do you think those that came immediately after the Apostles didn't pick up on this idea?

What on earth are you talking about?

Predestination was taught by Paul, Peter and Jesus.

The predestination of all things which happen in God's creation is also the necessary logical conclusion of a belief in the omniscience of God - even if it were not taught directly by the Lord and His apostles.

God knew before the foundation of the world exactly what would happen if He acted in certain ways. There was absolutely no chance at all that what God knew would happen would not indeed happen.

He has so acted and has continued to act in innumerable ways - thereby making it God who predestines all things by so choosing to act.

I can only state what the scriptures teach and what logic demands. I can't do your thinking for you.

And eternal security, or the preservation of the saints wasn't even thought of till 1,500 AD. Were the earlier theologians fast asleep?

Jesus was not asleep when He said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death to life." John 5:24

Get yourself a good Bible and take a break from talking about things you know nothing about.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Who cares what Arminius said?
This is one of the problems of calvinism. Too much attention on what Pelagius said, what Augustine said, whaat Arminius said.

Could we just concentrate on the bible please?

1. Jesus did NOT fail His goal.
Again: John 3:16
"For God So Loved the WORLD (everybody) that He gave His only begotten Son....that WHOSOVERE BELIEVETH in HIM, should not perish but have everlasting life."

That looks like number 2 to me.
Of course someone has to BELIEVE in Jesus to be saved....

Simple English!

Here are some verses for you.

John 1:29
Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the WORLD.

Romans 3:23-26
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
We have all sinned, and those who have faith in Jesus will be justified by His blood.


Romans 5:17-19
17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

As in Adam we all fell from grace, in Jesus, our relationship with God has been restored, by grace through our faith in Jesus.
Ephesians 2:8

Could you show me one verse that states Jesus died only for a select few?

You asked: “Could you show me one verse that states Jesus died only for a select few?”

Answer: Easily. The most familiar NT quote is John 3:16-- Jesus died for whoever would believe in Him. It does not say how many or how few, but it would require belief. Billions have not believed.
In Matthew 7:13–14, Jesus did say, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." The condition of salvation, the way, is faith in Jesus Christ. And ”faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ” and Jesus said that His sheep would hear Him.

 

[ladodgers6]

Maybe because THEY are so dumb and only calvinists are smart. After all, they're able to accept a god that no one else can accept due to their superior intelligence.

Why the sarcasm? Is that necessary? Are you going to answer the tough questions I posed to you?

 

[Marvin Knox]

I'm a chatterbox.

That's the problem.

You need to chatter less and listen more.

I for one would be very happy to answer any questions you may have. But you seem to be more interested in your nasty comebacks than weighing what I say.

 

[Butch5]

Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from the primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, and redeemed in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect and the foundation of salvation. This elect church, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by Him, and effectually to call and draw them to His communion by His Word and Spirit; to bestow upon them true faith, justification, and sanctification; and having powerfully preserved them in the fellowship of His son, finally to glorify them for the demonstration of His mercy, and for the praise of the riches of His glorious grace; as it is written "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Eph 1:4-6). And elsewhere: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Rom 8:30).
Canons of Dort (1.7)

That's not the Biblical doctrine of Election, it's the Reformers

 

[Butch5]

How does it not change God's nature if HE decides who is saved and who is not?

I thought God is an all good God...How does an all-good God send people to hell through no fault of their own?

It does. However, those who hold to that position have to make illogical claims to hold to that position. For instance, they'll say that God controls all things yet is not the author of sin. That is a logical contradiction. One can't control everything and something not be in one's control. The Biblical doctrine of Election is quite different than the Reformer's doctrine of Election.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

That's not the Biblical doctrine of Election, it's the Reformers

The Reformers are the ones who went back to the scriptures themselves for their doctrines, rather than accept the corruptions that had occurred due to valuing human ecclesiastic traditions over the scriptures.

 

[needhugs]

I will watch the videos.

he's got plenty of vids, lots to learn... i'm excited to learn that you will be learning
just ignore the stuff on the trinity... i know some people get weird about the trinity... and i can't explain that lol... to me, the trinity is a simple matter, but not for others i guess.

 

[Butch5]

You asked: “Could you show me one verse that states Jesus died only for a select few?”

Answer: Easily. The most familiar NT quote is John 3:16-- Jesus died for whoever would believe in Him. It does not say how many or how few, but it would require belief. Billions have not believed.
In Matthew 7:13–14, Jesus did say, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." The condition of salvation, the way, is faith in Jesus Christ. And ”faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ” and Jesus said that His sheep would hear Him.

Actually, John 3:16 doesn't say Christ died for only some. It says,

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Jn. 3:16 KJV)

He gave His Son "THAT" whosoever believes should not perish. This verse doesn't limit Christ's death to only those who believe. Let me give you an example. "I rented the movie theater that whosoever wants to see the film, can." Have rented the theater only for a certain few or for everyone? I've rented the theater. It belongs to me for that time. Anyone who wants to see the film, can. Just because one chooses not to doesn't mean I haven't rented the theater for them. Likewise God gave His Son, that whosoever believes should not perish. That some do doesn't mean Christ didn't die for them too.

 

[Butch5]

The Reformers are the ones who went back to the scriptures themselves for their doctrines, rather than accept the corruptions that had occurred due to valuing human ecclesiastic traditions over the scriptures.

I agree they did rid themselves of some error, however, they didn't go back to Biblical teaching. They went back to Augustine.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from the primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, and redeemed in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect and the foundation of salvation. This elect church, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by Him, and effectually to call and draw them to His communion by His Word and Spirit; to bestow upon them true faith, justification, and sanctification; and having powerfully preserved them in the fellowship of His son, finally to glorify them for the demonstration of His mercy, and for the praise of the riches of His glorious grace; as it is written "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves." (Eph 1:4-6). And elsewhere: "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." (Rom 8:30).
Canons of Dort (1.7)

Well said, brother.

 

[needhugs]

How does it not change God's nature if HE decides who is saved and who is not?

I thought God is an all good God...How does an all-good God send people to hell through no fault of their own?

oh hon, that's not the way it is at all... God IS all good, and He's not sliding people into hell...
there are plenty of places you can go to learn the truth
i'll give you one
bible-truths.com
ok, i'll give you two lol Martin Zender

And what do you think Jesus did with Judas? listen to his 'fate'...

Matthew 19:28 New International Version (NIV)

28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Yep, all 12, present and accounted for.

that last bit is from MY website, you can go there too

here's a video to make you laugh and cheer you up a bit

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Actually, John 3:16 doesn't say Christ died for only some. It says,

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Jn. 3:16 KJV)

He gave His Son "THAT" whosoever believes should not perish. This verse doesn't limit Christ's death to only those who believe. Let me give you an example. "I rented the movie theater that whosoever wants to see the film, can." Have rented the theater only for a certain few or for everyone? I've rented the theater. I belongs to me for that time. Anyone who wants to see the film, can. Just because one chooses not to doesn't mean I haven't rented the theater for them. Likewise God gave His some, that whosoever believes should not perish. That some do doesn't mean Christ didn't die for them too.

I agree that Christ died for all (redemption), potentially saving all. However, not all (nor even perhaps a majority) will accept that redemption and be saved. While the terms are often used interchangeabley, "redemption" and "salvation" are distinct terms with different meanings.

Redemption: Our Lord "gave himself as a ransom for all." There is a universality for what Christ accomplished on the Cross. This is what "redemption" means. And because Christ was resurrected, all will be resurrected. Death will die. But there are two resurrections indicated in the scriptures, one for the saved and one for the damned , see summary at What is the first resurrection? What is the second resurrection?).

Salvation, however, requires accepting that redemption. None who reject it can be saved. There is coming a time (the Day of Lord) when God, in essence, says “Time’s up!” He is not going to allow sin to forever exist, not in His Creation and certainly not in His Kingdom. But some people are children of the devil and not children of God; they are not lost sheep, they are goats. And you cannot turn a goat into a sheep, even if they bleat similarly.

• “Children of the Devil” -- Goats and wolves in sheep’s clothing as opposed to God’s sheep (both lost and found) – these references are to people, not just nations.
• Jesus: John 8:42-44, Matthew 13:37-42, John 6:70
• John: 1 John 3:10
• Paul: Acts 13:10

To summarize: All are redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ and by His resurrection and all will be resurrected. However, salvation into the Kingdom of God requires fully accepting this redemption (admitting they are sinners in need of it). None who reject this redemption (refusing to repent and trust in Christ) can be truly saved into the heavenly Kingdom of God.

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

I agree they did rid themselves of some error, however, they didn't go back to Biblical teaching. They went back to Augustine.

Due to their study of the scriptures, they just happened to agree with much of Augustine, who was the most biblically literate of the church fathers of his time.

It is rather like some people accusing me of being a Calvinist. I am not a Calvinist because we disagree on a number of issues (theodicy, eschatology, prophecy, Israel, doctrines of the Holy Spirit). But I do believe in the sovereignty of God, election by grace, justification by faith, and predestination-- per the New Testament passages on these things.

 

[Butch5]

I agree that Christ died for all (redemption), potentially saving all. However, not all (nor even perhaps a majority) will accept that redemption and be saved. While the terms are often used interchangeabley, "redemption" and "salvation" are distinct terms with different meanings.

Redemption: Our Lord "gave himself as a ransom for all." There is a universality for what Christ accomplished on the Cross. This is what "redemption" means. And because Christ was resurrected, all will be resurrected. Death will die. But there are two resurrections indicated in the scriptures, one for the saved and one for the damned , see summary at What is the first resurrection? What is the second resurrection?).

Salvation, however, requires accepting that redemption. None who reject it can be saved. There is coming a time (the Day of Lord) when God, in essence, says “Time’s up!” He is not going to allow sin to forever exist, not in His Creation and certainly not in His Kingdom. But some people are children of the devil and not children of God, they are not lost sheep, they are goats. And you cannot turn a goat into a sheep, even if they bleat similarly.

• “Children of the Devil” -- Goats and wolves in sheep’s clothing as opposed to God’s sheep (both lost and found) – these references are to people, not just nations.
• Jesus: John 8:42-44, Matthew 13:37-42, John 6:70
• John: 1 John 3:10
• Paul: Acts 13:10

To summarize: All are redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ and by His resurrection and all will be resurrected. However, salvation into the Kingdom of God requires fully accepting this redemption (admitting they are sinners in need of it). None who reject this redemption (refusing to repent and trust in Christ) can be truly saved into the heavenly Kingdom of God.

I don't do "Got Questions". I've found too much error there. However, I do agree with most of what you've said here. My initial response was, unless I'm mistaken, to a post where I believe you posted John 3:16 as evidence that Christ died for a certain number of people.

 

[Butch5]

Due to their study of the scriptures, they just happened to agree with much of Augustine, who was the most biblical of the church fathers of his time.

Actually, I believe it's the other way around. However, Augustine was not, by any means, the most Biblical of the Church Fathers. I'd submit that he was pretty far off base when it comes to Biblical Christianity.