Problem with Election

[ladodgers6]

Unfortunately the Calvinist Baptists and the Armenian Baptists are a bit split on the topic. I'm not sure you have to know who the elect are in order to answer the question. Let me rephrase: Does God want to make all people conformed to the image of Christ?

If you mean by 'All people'; all those that the Father give to Son to save, then Yes! John 6:39

 

[98cwitr]

How come you never explained what Calvinism teaches?
Did you forget?
It would be nice to know since I'm so ignorant on the subject.

T.U.L.I.P

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

This is the foundation of all calvinist theology

 

[98cwitr]

If you mean by 'All people'; all those that the Father give to Son to save, then Yes! John 6:39

No, I literally mean all people that has ever, or will ever, exist

 

[GodsGrace101]

So why did God make such a rule; a rule that if broken lands us in hell? It stands to reason that if God wished all to come to Him, He would have refrained from placing conditions on salvation, and rather permitted Universalism to exist, yes?

Even the most staunch atheist is going to come to the knowledge that God exists when they die I believe.

Are you married?
Do you have a rule?
Could that rule be that you want your wife to love you?
Why did you make the rule?
If you just forced her to love you, would it be real love??

God wishes all to be saved...but not all WANT to be saved.
God leaves it up to US as to whether or not we want to be saved. If we don't want to, He's not going to force us.
Jesus stands at the door and knocks,
Revelation 3:20

He's not knocking that door down, He knocks gently...it's up to us to open the door and let Him in.

If universalism was true, then some persons that were going to heaven would not really want to be there. God wants only those who love Him in heaven. He's a just God.

 

[GodsGrace101]

T.U.L.I.P

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

This is the foundation of all calvinist theology

Yes. I know.
I was rather hoping that the one throwing some insults at me would explain it since I do such a bad job of it...

 

[ladodgers6]

You are asking me if God wants all people conformed to Son. Every single person for who lived! This is a bit of a trick question for me. The Scripture reveal to us that God has a Plan of Redemption before the creation of the world. Now if everyone is included, then everyone would be saved, correct? But if some perish, then obviously not all are saved, correct?

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Here's what separates the sheep from the goats...
and it's not election since election is based on NOTHING.

Mathew 25:31-46
Mathew 25:40 What we do we do also to Jesus. These are the sheep.

Mathew 25:45-46 These did not do anything for anyone...they are the goats and they will go to eternal punishment.

If you'll notice the above is based on the works we do...
NOT on who is elected.

If it was based on who was elected, Jesus' words would make no sense at all since the elect would have already been chosen and nothing they did or didn't do would have made no difference.

Sorry, you've got it backwards. The chosen, by definition, have received the Holy Spirit and therefore will do good works. It is not the deeds that make them chosen, but the deeds do prove it to others. We will know the tree by its fruit, Jesus said.

We are not saved by our works; Paul was very clear about that. But those who have been given faith by God will eventually do good works; it is in their new born-again DNA. Those who persist in doing evil are revealing that they do not have saving faith (not among the Elect), or else they would be battling the temptations and the bad habits and making progress toward spiritual maturity (sanctification).

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

Why don't you enlighten us all and tell us what calvinists DO believe since I'm so misinformed??

Those among us who have studied Reformation theology are familiar with the “Five Solas” that codify the doctrines of grace as they apply to salvation. Evangelicals in general believe that the solas are essential to understanding true Christianity and some even assert that believing them is essential for salvation itself.
- Sola scriptura ("by Scripture alone")
- Sola fide ("by faith alone")
- Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
- Solus Christus or Solo Christo ("through Christ alone")
- Sola Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")

I have always regarded these distilled teachings of the reformers as undeniably true. It is easy to find scriptures to back them up. However, they also have seemed incomplete, not providing the full picture of the process of salvation. I believe that the incompleteness has created conflict in the universal Church. This situation should not be surprising, since these solas were formed in the first place in the crucible of religious conflict, in order to protest the errors of the Roman Catholic Church.

Why did the reformers need to add the word ‘alone’ to each of these elements? How can any of them be ‘alone’ when there are five? It seems clear to me that the ‘alone’ is there for only one purpose—to exclude certain other options that were believed to be heretical. The solas are a sort of creed that helped the reformers stand firm in their doctrine and save souls. Thus we have: faith alone (versus works), scripture alone (versus other sources of knowledge), grace alone (versus anything we can do), Christ alone (versus any other authority), and God’s glory alone (versus anyone or anything that would take credit for our salvation and sanctification).

 

[GodsGrace101]

Sorry, you've got it backwards. The chosen, by definition, have received the Holy Spirit and therefore will do good works. It is not the deeds that make them chosen, but the deeds do prove it to others. We will know the tree by its fruit, Jesus said.

We are not saved by our works; Paul was very clear about that. But those who have been given faith by God will eventually do good works; it is in their new born-again DNA. Those who persist in doing evil are revealing that they do not have saving faith (not among the Elect), or else they would be battling the temptations and the bad habits and making progress toward spiritual maturity (sanctification).

I agree.
But what makes them "chosen"?

 

[98cwitr]

Are you married?
Do you have a rule?
Could that rule be that you want your wife to love you?
Why did you make the rule?
If you just forced her to love you, would it be real love??

You need to factor in God's Omniscient and his Creatorship before making these analogies, but I'll bite:

If I were a wifeless Omniscient and all powerful being, but being a bit lonely I wanted a wife; then I'd create a wife with a heart to love me, if that's what I truly desired.

This is near to exactly what God promises to do in Ezekiel 36

 

[Marvin Knox]

I totally agree. Someone has been telling lies to Marvin Knox such that he now completely misunderstands the biblical doctrines clarified by the Reformers. It does sound like an uneducated lay Catholic way of thinking.

I believe you meant to say that someone has been telling lies to GodsGrace101.

@Marvin Knox would do well to misundestand reformed theology.

See above.

Why don't you enlighten us all and tell us what calvinists DO believe since I'm so misinformed??

Here you go.
Westminster Confession of Faith

How come you never explained what Calvinism teaches? Did you forget? It would be nice to know since I'm so ignorant on the subject.

I see by the time stamp that it's been about 4 hours since you asked me for enlightenment on the subject. Some of us have another life besides contributing to this thread.

None the less - see the Westminster Confession of Faith with the link above. It is probably the most authoritative source for Reformed beliefs concerning soteriology. It makes it clear that your statements about Reformed beliefs are wrong.

Reformed theology does not allow for God forcing anyone to do anything they are not willing to do.

Predestination and the somewhat related doctrine of election - do not in any way eliminate the free choices made by men (be they elect of reprobate).

 

[ladodgers6]

Sorry, you've got it backwards. The chosen, by definition, have received the Holy Spirit and therefore will do good works. It is not the deeds that make them chosen, but the deeds do prove it to others. We will know the tree by its fruit, Jesus said.

We are not saved by our works; Paul was very clear about that. But those who have been given faith by God will eventually do good works; it is in their new born-again DNA. Those who persist in doing evil are revealing that they do not have saving faith (not among the Elect), or else they would be battling the temptations and the bad habits and making progress toward spiritual maturity (sanctification).

Why do they keep confusing Justification with Sanctification. Goes to show that we need a Modern Reformation. Confusing, or distorting these two is the common problem in Christianity.

 

[GodsGrace101]

You need to factor in God's Omniscient and his Creatorship before making these analogies, but I'll bite:

If I were a wifeless Omniscient and all powerful being, but being a bit lonely I wanted a wife; then I'd create a wife with a heart to love me, if that's what I truly desired.

This is near to exactly what God promises to do in Ezekiel 36

Well, of course we have to ALLOW God to put that new heart in us.

I factored in everything before making my analogy.
Your second paragraph tells me you don't believe in free will.
As in: God makes us THINK we have free will, but we really don't. I think that's called compatible free will.

This would be a pretty untrustworthy God. Is this what you believe?

I believe God gives me free will to love Him or not.
God has free will to make moral choices and He made us in our image.

And how could God be happy with a wife that HE knows HE caused to have this loving heart?
How could such an omniscient and omnipotent God be happy with such a wife??

 

[redleghunter]

But if faith in Jesus Christ is real, it will change a person’s heart and he/she will want to change, will want to please God. However free salvation is, walking with Christ requires everything from us (see Luke 9:23-25 Matthew 10:38-3

Indeed we are to pick up our crosses and deny ourselves and follow Him.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I believe you meant to say that someone has been telling lies to GodsGrace101.

See above.
Here you go.
Westminster Confession of Faith

I see by the time stamp that it's been about 4 hours since you asked me for enlightenment on the subject. Some of us have another life besides contributing to this thread.

None the less - see the Westminster Confession of Faith with the link above. It is probably the most authoritative source for Reformed beliefs concerning soteriology. It makes it clear that your statements about Reformed beliefs are wrong.

Reformed theology does not allow for God forcing anyone to do anything they are not willing to do.

Predestination and the somewhat related doctrine of election - do not in any way eliminate the free choices made by men (be they elect of reprobate).

This is too funny.
Are you sure you understand what you believe in???
And because something is written somewhere does not make it correct.

Could you post some writings that would support the Westminster Confession of Faith? Not the bible, since the bible does not teach reformed theology.

Are you aware that predestination did not exist before 1,500 AD except for one theologian back in the year 400 AD.
Why do you think those that came immediately after the Apostles didn't pick up on this idea?

And eternal security, or the preservation of the saints wasn't even thought of till 1,500 AD. Were the earlier theologians fast asleep?

 

[98cwitr]

Well, of course we have to ALLOW God to put that new heart in us.

I don't see that in Scripture. We will only do that which is in our nature to do. Where does our nature come from?

I factored in everything before making my analogy.
Your second paragraph tells me you don't believe in free will.
As in: God makes us THINK we have free will, but we really don't. I think that's called compatible free will.

Free will is an illusion of autonomy. We are not our own. We are either slaves to sin (free in sin; "choose today whom you will serve <insertPaganIdol>) or slaves to righteousness (free in Christ).

This would be a pretty untrustworthy God. Is this what you believe?

It makes Him completely trustworthy. A god of free will would allow his children to run into traffic so that he dare not impose on their liberties. The God of the Bible always protects those whom He loves (1 Cor 13)

I believe God gives me free will to love Him or not.

Seems like sandy ground, but believe as your heart ables you.

God has free will to make moral choices and He made us in our image.

God made Hilter in His image...I'm not sure why you point that out. We are to Love Him with our whole hearts and being, and this is the purpose of rebirth (John 3), that we may be in Christ and Christ in us.

And how could God be happy with a wife that HE knows HE caused to have this loving heart?
How could such an omniscient and omnipotent God be happy with such a wife??

Romans 9:22-23

 

[Dr Bruce Atkinson]

I agree.
But what makes them "chosen"?

This is the mystery which is at the source of the debate. We just do not know. It is neither arbitrary nor it something inherent in the chosen individual that they can brag about. Bottom line: Do we trust God's choices? I know I do.

 

[redleghunter]

If not, then why bother to evangelize?

Because 'we' don't know and we are commanded to do so. God told Paul to stay where he was because He had many people there that needed to hear the gospel.

Acts 18: NASB
9And the Lord said to Paul in the night by a vision, “Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; 10for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city.” 11And he settled there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

 

[redleghunter]

I believe I've already replied to this.
Did God choose Mary?
Did God choose Moses?

I've said that God can and does choose certain people for special works. Pharoah, IMHO, would be another one. Some explain that his heart was already hard so God helped him along and made is even worse.

Did Mary choose of her own free will or did Gabriel annouce to her that she'd be the mother of Jesus?
Luke 1:31

I never said God is not sovereign. God will cause His plan to come to fruition.

What I'm saying is that He does not determine every move we make and He does not choose who will and will not be saved.
Robots, puppets, are not what God wants, unless He's playing a mean and grotesque cosmic game with us.

That sounds like a lot of choosing.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Why do they keep confusing Justification with Sanctification. Goes to show that we need a Modern Reformation. Confusing, or distorting these two is the common problem in Christianity.

Maybe because THEY are so dumb and only calvinists are smart. After all, they're able to accept a god that no one else can accept due to their superior intelligence.