Problem with Election

[James2018]

I said the 24 reconstructed Greek N.T. texts don't match
in content, volume and doctrine, please don't talk crazy.

 

[James2018]

Reselecting manuscripts and redefining word definitions
is re-canonization, so, you better get your new translation
published and distributed soon.

The King James Holy Bible still is the most published,
distributed, translated, preached and believed bible of all time !

The King James Holy Bible is also the most published,
distributed, translated, preached and believed book of all time !

 

[James2018]

God has been waiting 400 years for you to improve the Holy Bible.

 

[Radagast]

Reselecting manuscripts and redefining word definitions
is re-canonization

Nobody is doing that, and the KJV was never "canonised."

It's just a translation. Not a very good one, and based on a corrupted text.

 

[James2018]

I'm not talking only about the selections of books.
I'm talking about the selections of words.

The science is academic theology.
The subject is bible canonization.
The topic is final canonization.

 

[Radagast]

I'm talking about the selections of words.

Huh?

The topic is final canonization.

The KJV was never "canonised." It's just a translation. Not a very good one, and based on a corrupted text.

 

[James2018]

In an scientific inquiry you can't just repeat yourself.

It's true, canonization is about selecting words.

Tell me what bad text it is based on.

Be sincere, share with me, tell me.

 

[ladodgers6]

no way, I'm not talking about the text you're talking about, two different books !

Please provide the book and the passage, you did not in your original post.

 

[ladodgers6]

I don't really need any lectures. I got the data base.
Let's assume we've all read the same books
or at lease thought about the same things.

The presupposition is that the scriptures are the final authority.
The presupposition sets the premise.
The premise to the question is scripture text.
I'm asking someone to explain
the underlined words.

Why don't you share what your interpretation is, instead of having us trying to guess, what you are thinking?

 

[GodsGrace101]

Sounds like Calvin is expounding on the parable of the sower. Matthew 13

Yes, of course.
But since it's God who is responsible for everything that happens, it looks like He allows some to be enlightened for a while and then takes it away.

Sounds pretty mean to me.
How could a God of love be so mean?
I suppose, being sovereign, He could do whatever He wants
to do, including being mean.

But if He's mean, then the following verse is not true:

1 John 1:5
New American Standard Bible
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

Do we accept that Jesus was the ultimate revelation of God?
Do we accept that John lived with Jesus for His entire ministry on earth?
Can we say that John knew Jesus and understood His mission here?

Then we have an apparent conflict between what Calvin taught and what John taught. Who are we to believe?

And please don't quote Isaiah 45:7.
God revealed Himself as people were able to understand Him.
In the O.T. everything that happened was attributed to God, even what He did not want or do.

To adhere to calvin's theories, one must ignore much of scripture and twist some of it around to mean something it does not mean.

For instance, John 3:16 means that whosoever, meaning everyone, who believes in Jesus will be saved. It does not say that everyone whom God determines will believe will be saved. Also, the reformed church takes this to mean that all TYPES of men could be saved, not ALL MEN. John 3:16 is a simple verse and nothing should be read into it.

Galatian 3:15-29
A promise was made to Abraham. He would become the father of many nations, through his seed, Jesus.
The law did not change that promise. New Covenants never abolished the previous ones.
Verse 22: The promise by faith in Jesus would be given to all those who believe. To all those who believe... Not to those elect or those to whom God would gift faith, but all those who believe.

The law leads us to Christ and having, believed, we receive faith so that we may be justified by that faith.

Verse 27: All those who were baptized in Christ have been clothed with Christ.

So, we hear the gospel, we believe, we have faith, we are baptized into Christ.

This is the gospel message, to change it is to do a disservice to God Almighty, the one true and Sovereign God.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Nobody is doing that, and the KJV was never "canonised."

It's just a translation. Not a very good one, and based on a corrupted text.

I have different versions.
In the KJV it many times will have a side note stating:

"should have been translated..."
And it'll give a different word.

Up to date bibles are far superior because we know so much more today. History, culture of the time, etc. Real hermeneutics, syntax, how people related to each other --- this was not known when the King James was translated.

So, yes, I agree with you.
Although it is beautiful for the poetic wording...

 

[GodsGrace101]

Get your facts straight. Calvinism agrees that there is free will, but says that it is one of the compatibilist versions of free will.

For those of us who are a bit slow,
could you please explain compatibilist free will?

I like to hear the explanation because I find it very amusing.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Anyone feel like helping me understand this verse ?

KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Very easy to understand James.

2 Timothy 1:5-
5For I am mindful of the sincere faith within you, which first dwelt in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am sure that it is in you as well. 6For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline.

8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher. 12For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day. 13Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.


Paul is writing to Timothy, a young pastor, teacher of the gospel of Jesus. Paul is telling him that he's aware of Timothy's sincere faith -- first manifested in his grandmother and then in his mother. Paul tells Timothy to keep alive and fresh the gift he received from the laying on of Paul's hands...the gift of preaching and teaching God's word.

God has called Paul and Timothy with a holy calling. God gives to each a gift, as in 1 Corinthians 12:1-11, 28. To Paul and Timothy God gave the gift of teaching and preaching -- the Holy Spirit renders to each of us a gift, if we're willing to accept it. God knows which gift to give to whom, and enables them to use that gift.
Ephesians 2:10

Verse 11 makes the above clear. Paul is suffering all his trouble (and soon death) due to preaching the gospel message. Paul tells Timothy to keep doing his holy work.

 

[sdowney717]

I shall write Romans 3:20 over the top of this.

I hope you realize you are invalidating the NT.

Yes, no one can keep the law, the just shall live by his faith.
If you fail in one part, you fail the whole law and are guilty as a law breaker.

John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?”
Acts 15:5
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Acts 15:24
Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law”—to whom we gave no such commandment—


Galatians 5:3
And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
Galatians 6:13
For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh.
James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Acts 7:52-54 New King James Version (NKJV)
52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, 53 who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.”

Stephen the Martyr
54 When they heard these things they were [a]cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth.

 

[JLB777]

Okay, let's read what the scripture so plainly says then:

1 John 3:8-9 New International Version (NIV)
8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 5:18 New International Version (NIV)
18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

Hebrews 10:26 New International Version (NIV)
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

First of all, in Hebrews 10:26, the context is referring to those who have departed from the living God, and returned to Judaism.

In the scriptures you quoted from 1 John, those scriptures refer to practicing or continue in sin, which is to say a sinful lifestyle of walking according to the flesh.


8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9


There is a difference in a mature believer who knows what is right willfully lives in sin, and a baby Christian who learning how to walk according to the Spirit.


Paul says it this way to those in Galatia -

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

19 Now adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:16,19-21

• of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Paul has warned them before and is warning them again, those who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Inherit the kingdom of God, is to be welcomed into God's kingdom on the Day of Judgement.


Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Matthew 25:34


Those Christians who do not inherit the kingdom of God, will here these words instead -


“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41




JLB

 

[98cwitr]

First of all, in Hebrews 10:26, the context is referring to those who have departed from the living God, and returned to Judaism.

Then why does Paul say "we?" Is he including himself in those "who have departed from God?"

In the scriptures you quoted from 1 John, those scriptures refer to practicing or continue in sin, which is to say a sinful lifestyle of walking according to the flesh.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:8-9

*Past sins. There is no Scriptural support that I find that future sins are possible with the regenerated. I hope I'm wrong, because I still sin. As a matter of fact, there are some days where I consider Hebrews 10:26 directly is applicable to my current state, but I am reassured that God is in control of my salvation, and whether I wind up in hell or heaven, God's Will shall be done. Amen?

 

[JLB777]

Then why does Paul say "we?" Is he including himself in those "who have departed from God?"

26 For after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29

The writer includes himself in this exhortation, meaning that this principle applies to himself as well.


The whole book of Hebrews was written to the Jews to exhort them not to turn back to Judaism, because of persecution from unbelieving Jews, who call Jesus a false prophet, and a false messiah.

The book of Hebrews shows from beginning to end, that Jesus is the Lord God, YHWH, God of the Old Testament who became flesh and dwelt among us, not just a man claiming to be the Messiah.

He is the only begotten Son of God.


The writer, after establishing some of these truths, goes right to the heart of the matter about falling away, which deals with turning away from Christ.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


This exhortation sets the context for what we read in Hebrews 6


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

as well as Hebrews 10


26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29





JLB

 

[James2018]

Very easy to understand James.

2 Timothy 1:5-
5For I am mindful of the sincere faith within you, which first dwelt in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am sure that it is in you as well. 6For this reason I remind you to kindle afresh the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline.

8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher. 12For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day. 13Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.


Paul is writing to Timothy, a young pastor, teacher of the gospel of Jesus. Paul is telling him that he's aware of Timothy's sincere faith -- first manifested in his grandmother and then in his mother. Paul tells Timothy to keep alive and fresh the gift he received from the laying on of Paul's hands...the gift of preaching and teaching God's word.

God has called Paul and Timothy with a holy calling. God gives to each a gift, as in 1 Corinthians 12:1-11, 28. To Paul and Timothy God gave the gift of teaching and preaching -- the Holy Spirit renders to each of us a gift, if we're willing to accept it. God knows which gift to give to whom, and enables them to use that gift.
Ephesians 2:10

Verse 11 makes the above clear. Paul is suffering all his trouble (and soon death) due to preaching the gospel message. Paul tells Timothy to keep doing his holy work.

no way, I'm not asking you to explain readings from that book

 

[Radagast]

For those of us who are a bit slow,
could you please explain compatibilist free will?

Here's a fairly simple discussion: Compatibilism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I like to hear the explanation because I find it very amusing.

 

[98cwitr]

26 For after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29

The writer includes himself in this exhortation, meaning that this principle applies to himself as well.


The whole book of Hebrews was written to the Jews to exhort them not to turn back to Judaism, because of persecution from unbelieving Jews, who call Jesus a false prophet, and a false messiah.

The book of Hebrews shows from beginning to end, that Jesus is the Lord God, YHWH, God of the Old Testament who became flesh and dwelt among us, not just a man claiming to be the Messiah.

He is the only begotten Son of God.


The writer, after establishing some of these truths, goes right to the heart of the matter about falling away, which deals with turning away from Christ.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


This exhortation sets the context for what we read in Hebrews 6


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

as well as Hebrews 10


26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:26-29





JLB

Are you insinuating that Hebrews 10:26 cannot apply to the Gentiles?