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Problem of evil?

BloodyRachel

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"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"
-Epicurus

How can we answer this?
 

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Either God isn't omnipotent in the sense commonly defined by philosophers, or the proposition "if he can, but doesn't want to, he is wicked," is false given that immediate negation of suffering isn't tantamount to goodness in all circumstances. In other words, although at times the means may seem bad, the ends are needed for whatever reason. In a very basic sense, the joys of a future life outweigh the sufferings of this life. Whether there are sufferings in this life that are needed in order for the future life to have value, or because of other reasons (namely, free will), there are means that need to be transcended in order to reach the end.

But this goes far from justifying just any case of terror in the world, from Auschwitz to murdered children, and I'll be damned if anyone says this type of suffering is necessary for a future world.
 
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jayem

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Or you can postulate two Gods--one totally benevolent, and one totally malevolent. Who are co-equal and in constant struggle. Righteousness and happiness in life result when the good God has the upper hand. Wickedness and suffering come from the evil one. Manichaean gnostics believed this type of dualism. It's a logical way to explain the presence of good and evil in the world, but it's a radical departure from the traditional Biblical God. Dualism has been considered heretical in Christianity for a long time.
 
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Ken-1122

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Either God isn't omnipotent in the sense commonly defined by philosophers, or the proposition "if he can, but doesn't want to, he is wicked," is false given that immediate negation of suffering isn't tantamount to goodness in all circumstances. In other words, although at times the means may seem bad, the ends are needed for whatever reason. In a very basic sense, the joys of a future life outweigh the sufferings of this life. Whether there are sufferings in this life that are needed in order for the future life to have value, or because of other reasons (namely, free will), there are means that need to be transcended in order to reach the end.


(reply) I think the OP made a very good point. I noticed he spoke of God abolishing evil and you responded to suffering; something totally different.
I don’t think you can say evil is necessary in order for good things to happen without contradicting yourself when you say there is no evil in Heaven.

Ken
 
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Received

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I agree that there's difficulty with the idea of no evil in heaven given the definition of evil that makes sense (at least to me). "Evil" and "good" both presuppose teleological terminology, and therefore presuppose intention, which in turn presupposes human freedom. (The only alternative interpretation of evil I've heard that's worth considering is a big case of badness, which is irrational because no line can be drawn between badness and big badness, i.e., evil.) Something is evil if it has no purpose beyond itself and is intended for bad (e.g., malevolent) reasons; yet this isn't to say that acts of evil can't be allowed by a good deity, assuming that we're speaking of human freedom, which involves the capacity to choose to act in evil ways. So when you get to the end of the day, something is evil only if there is intention involved; in this case either human beings or God can be evil, either by inflicting suffering or allowing it to exist.

I'm not entirely sure why I chose suffering rather than evil. I think it has to do with the fact that suffering is the only real result of evil that makes evil so terrible a thing. If people didn't suffer as a result of someone else's evil, what would be so evil about evil?

So what does Epicurus' mean when he speaks about evil and God "wanting" to abolish it? Evil is never necessary; at the minimum it is allowable because of human freedom, which by definition can't be controlled without contradicting oneself. In this sense, evil is allowed because of some future reason, which according to the monotheistic faiths is spelled out in a final judgment, where bad folks get their badness and good folks get rewarded. Epicurus' reasoning would be valid if he added another part to one of his premises: "If he can but does not want to for any reason, immediately or teleologically, he is wicked." That, of course, is an entirely different point. God would be wicked if he allowed evil (suffering) for no reason whatsoever. This isn't necessarily the case by any means, however; therefore, Epicurus' argument fails.

Outside of human freedom, we really only have the problem of natural disasters. Of course, given the definition of evil above, natural disasters can't be evil because they don't involve intention; however, they would involve intention if God allowed them to happen for no reason, which is again to be seen.
 
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bricklayer

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Evil is not, in and of itself, a thing. Evil is a privation of good.

God's purpose for His creation is the revelation of His glory, it is not a human-centered purpose.
The only true injustice would be if God misrepresented Himself.

God is just as much about revealing what he hates and why as He is about revealing what He loves.

God does no injustice to man, but God's purpose for His creation is not to do justice to man, it is to do justice to His holy name.

It's easy for me to accept, I have found favor with God. As an object of His mercy, I have been chosen to be an example of His grace. God works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose, but not so much for the rest.
 
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Ken-1122

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Recieved (quote) “I agree that there's difficulty with the idea of no evil in heaven given the definition of evil that makes sense (at least to me). "Evil" and "good" both presuppose teleological terminology, and therefore presuppose intention, which in turn presupposes human freedom.”

(reply) So is it your opinion that evil will be allowed in Heaven?

(quote) “Epicurus' reasoning would be valid if he added another part to one of his premises: "If he can but does not want to for any reason, immediately or teleologically, he is wicked." That, of course, is an entirely different point. God would be wicked if he allowed evil (suffering) for no reason whatsoever. This isn't necessarily the case by any means, however; therefore, Epicurus' argument fails.

(reply) what do you mean? That is a part of Epicurus argument! Thus his argument stands.

The riddle of Epicurus:

If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able; then he is not omnipotent
If he is able but not willing, Then he is malevolent
If he is able and willing, Then whence cometh evil?
If he is neither willing nor able? Then why call him God?

Ken
 
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My point is that Epicurus' argument regarding God "can, but does not want to" implies immediate negation of evil (or at least it sure as heck does to every single person whose understanding I've gained). My point is that if teleology is a possible solution to immediate evil, then Epicurus' argument fails because it assumes that all evil that isn't immediately resolved presupposes wickedness by any agent who has the power to stop it, deity or otherwise.

As for heaven and the afterlife, I can only say that if evil is allowed because of human freedom, and humans are still free in Heb'n, then there must be the possibility for evil or else human beings aren't free. Now, the results of this evil may be swept up under the rug by a divine force or something or other, but that's another story.
 
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quatona

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Either God isn't omnipotent in the sense commonly defined by philosophers, or the proposition "if he can, but doesn't want to, he is wicked," is false given that immediate negation of suffering isn't tantamount to goodness in all circumstances. In other words, although at times the means may seem bad, the ends are needed for whatever reason. In a very basic sense, the joys of a future life outweigh the sufferings of this life. Whether there are sufferings in this life that are needed in order for the future life to have value, or because of other reasons (namely, free will), there are means that need to be transcended in order to reach the end.
While this line of reasoning may have some merits when it comes to entities that are confronted with already existing conditions, laws and rules that necessitate suffering as a means to a certain end (e.g. parents and their children), it doesn´t make much sense in regards to a god who allegedly is the author of everything, namely all those conditions, rules and laws that necessitate suffering as a means to this end.
 
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Received

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Let's imagine for a moment that laws can't be any other way than they are; that is, the law of contradiction applies and can't be negated in another world. I really can't even begin to imagine how our basic laws could be reversed in any type of way; therefore, talking about these possibilities is talking nonsense.

But let's imagine that laws can't be any other way than they are. If these laws necessitate suffering, this means that suffering is necessary. If it's necessary, does this mean that God isn't omnipotent? Is omnipotence negated because you create a three-sided object and it therefore is a triangle? Likewise with some suffering -- especially suffering from so-called free will, but also (in possibility) with other types of suffering. If God chooses to create the world using evolution (which, after all, is clearly the only option if we assume that God exists), then evolution is obviously going to allow the possibility of bad mutations -- matter-of-factly, most mutations are regressive. Does God's use of evolution mean he's limited in power? Only if you assume that a world where evolution isn't the vehicle of creation is somehow "better" than one that isn't. But how on earth do we go about determining whether an evolutionary or non-evolutionary world would be better?

That brings me to a second point: determining what is "better" or "best" or "greater", or any other type of comparative adjective, really is vague when we're speaking about the grand scheme of things. This makes questions of God's omnipotence murky in addition to concerns about whether God is good or not.
 
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Nooj

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"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"
-Epicurus

How can we answer this?
He's either impotent or just doesn't care. So what.

I just don't get the 'problem of evil' that people trot out to confound the theists. Yeah whoopdidoo, you've struck a blow against the theistic obsession for a god who loves us and can do anything, assuming that their rebuttals have no standing. That still leaves you with a god, one that probably doesn't care about us or isn't able to help us. We're on our own and in trouble. Happy now?
 
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Ken-1122

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Received (quote) “My point is that Epicurus' argument regarding God "can, but does not want to" implies immediate negation of evil”

(reply)I have no idea how anyone can come to such a conclusion. Epicurus didn’t even use the word “negate” the word he used was malevolent; something totally different.

(quote) “My point is that if teleology is a possible solution to immediate evil, then Epicurus' argument fails because it assumes that all evil that isn't immediately resolved presupposes wickedness by any agent who has the power to stop it, deity or otherwise.”

(reply) Kinda reminds me of the saying: “When good men allow bad men to spread chaos and evil unchallenged, those good men become contributors of chaos and evil”
I totally agree with this thus I say his point stands. Why do you disagree?

(quote) “As for heaven and the afterlife, I can only say that if evil is allowed because of human freedom, and humans are still free in Heb'n, then there must be the possibility for evil or else human beings aren't free. Now, the results of this evil may be swept up under the rug by a divine force or something or other, but that's another story.”

(reply) Humm… swept under a rug huh? Kinda makes you wonder why he doesn’t do this here on earth! It can’t be any worse than what we’ve got going on now;
*Adam and eve kicked out of the garden….. didn’t solve anything there!
*Killing animals and sacrificing them to God;…..didn’t work!
*Noah’s ark and the whole flood thing; ……didn’t work!
*Giving Moses the Ten Commandments; …..didn’t work!
*Sending Christ to be Crucified:….. Obviously not working;

Seems to me if he were just willing to sweep all that stuff under the carpet or something; he could have saved himself an awful lot of grief and we still wouldn’t be any worse off than we are right now! But you’re right; that’s another story.

Ken
 
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quatona

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of course you are basically correct: one can´t cover all god concepts out there with one single argument; which also means that with little modifications of your god concept you can find an easy ad hoc answer to an argument such as the PoE.
(Like: The PoE wouldn´t even begin to apply to a god that isn´t a personal, sentient entity).

However, what we have to keep in mind is that even only minor modifications of a god concept can have tremendous implications for other parts of the theological discussion, and each time the entire discussion would have to start anew. To be honest, it is my impression that the theological blanket is simply too small - of course, any time a problem is pointed out you can draw the blanket so that it covers it, but you´ll uncover another spot.

There is a reason why my user line is "God? What do you mean??", and when it comes to fluffy terms like "omnipotent" the first question should be also "Omnipotent? What do you mean??"

All that being said, I´ll try to address your points:

Let's imagine for a moment that laws can't be any other way than they are;
Ok. Do I understand that correctly: We do away with the entire "With god everything is possible/God is beyond time, space, logic, whatnot/Who are you to put god in a small human box?" concept, and basically replace it by "With god everything that´s possible is possible (i.e. with god everything is possible that would be possible without god as well)"?

Fine with me. However, I just hope you are aware that the implications I have spoken about above would be huge. If god in creating the universe was bound by the very laws/rules/conditions that we are subjected to within the universe, an entire field of theology would be out the window: E.g. god wouldn´t be necessary, and "god did it by virtue of his omnipotence" would not be acceptable as an explanation. The entire "God is able to create matter from nothing (or from spirituality") wouldn´t be applicable because this is exactly what the rules/laws/conditions within this universe do not allow for) .

Anyway, if you postulate that "omnipotent" doesn´t mean "all-powerful" (but just "some sort of pretty powerful"), for purposes of a meaningful discussion I would like you to define upfront what powers actually entails in your understanding.
And while we are at it and so that I´m not in for another surprise it would be great if you could give your definition of "omniscient" - after all, chances are that at some point you will reveal to me that "omniscient" doesn´t mean "all-knowing" but "knowing that which is knowable within the realm of our imagination" or something. Thanks. :)

that is, the law of contradiction applies and can't be negated in another world. I really can't even begin to imagine how our basic laws could be reversed in any type of way; therefore, talking about these possibilities is talking nonsense.
Well, when considering god concepts I am asked to accept a lot of stuff that I can´t even begin to imagine all the time (actually that´s the very foremost support for most god concepts: God is beyond our limited imagination), so I guess the same could be asked from you. :D

On a more serious note, I am glad to see we agree that all these god concepts are nonsense.

However, when saying "laws/rules/conditions" I wasn´t even thinking of such a basic thing as the law of non-contradiction (or logic in general). Rather, I was thinking of simple things that are easily imaginable to have been created differently. Just to name one very simple example: I don´t see any necessity for a creatorgod to create the condition that injuries hurt and/or that certain injuries cause death.

Re "reversed": Naturally (and particularly in light of the claims that god is omniscient and unchanging) I don´t think the PoE would expect god to reverse his/her/its creation but to have done it right from the beginning.

But let's imagine that laws can't be any other way than they are. If these laws necessitate suffering, this means that suffering is necessary. If it's necessary, does this mean that God isn't omnipotent? Is omnipotence negated because you create a three-sided object and it therefore is a triangle?
Now, tackling my proposition as if I meant to say that god could have created a three sided object with four sides is certainly convenient but completely besides the point.

Likewise with some suffering -- especially suffering from so-called free will, but also (in possibility) with other types of suffering. If God chooses to create the world using evolution (which, after all, is clearly the only option if we assume that God exists), then evolution is obviously going to allow the possibility of bad mutations -- matter-of-factly, most mutations are regressive. Does God's use of evolution mean he's limited in power?
No, and your wording "chooses to create the world using evolution" implies that there must have been other options. Which is exactly my starting point.
Same goes for "freewill" (whatever that´s supposed to mean - I guess I will never get a coherent explanation, and therefore I´d like you to understand that I am not willing to discuss it in detail for the time being). If freewill necessitates evil, and if god wanted to keep evil from us, god could have created us without this ominous "freewill".
Only if you assume that a world where evolution isn't the vehicle of creation is somehow "better" than one that isn't. But how on earth do we go about determining whether an evolutionary or non-evolutionary world would be better?
For purposes of discussing the PoE (or the Problem of Suffering in which you have changed it) we don´t need to go there: If we assume that god could have created a world without suffering, the argument applies fully (no matter whether you or I think that a world without suffering would be a "better" or "worse" world).
For example god could have created a world without animated objects (and this isn´t even asking much from his omnipotence but comparably little): zadong, no suffering, no evil.

That brings me to a second point: determining what is "better" or "best" or "greater", or any other type of comparative adjective, really is vague when we're speaking about the grand scheme of things.
Yes, sure (and I may add they are vague even if we don´t speak about the grand scheme of things.
Fortunately, though, those terms aren´t part of the PoE argument, and thus the relevance of this point escapes me.
This makes questions of God's omnipotence murky in addition to concerns about whether God is good or not.
Again: It strikes me as somewhat funny, that such murkiness, nonsense and absurdity isn´t pointed out when the claims are made but not before they are hypothetically accepted, considered or rejected.
If I understand you correctly, I am well advised to simply ignore statements such as "God is omnipotent" or "God is good" because they are void of conceivable meaning - or else I will be criticized for trying to take them seriously. ;)
 
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sandwiches

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He's either impotent or just doesn't care. So what.

I just don't get the 'problem of evil' that people trot out to confound the theists. Yeah whoopdidoo, you've struck a blow against the theistic obsession for a god who loves us and can do anything, assuming that their rebuttals have no standing. That still leaves you with a god, one that probably doesn't care about us or isn't able to help us. We're on our own and in trouble. Happy now?

What exactly do you think should be gained from philosophical discussions?
 
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Received

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Hey there klaustona ;) Sorry for the delay.

However, what we have to keep in mind is that even only minor modifications of a god concept can have tremendous implications for other parts of the theological discussion, and each time the entire discussion would have to start anew. To be honest, it is my impression that the theological blanket is simply too small - of course, any time a problem is pointed out you can draw the blanket so that it covers it, but you´ll uncover another spot.

There is a reason why my user line is "God? What do you mean??", and when it comes to fluffy terms like "omnipotent" the first question should be also "Omnipotent? What do you mean??"

I don't know if the blanket is too small or if, given the incredibly abstract nature of the discussion (God, like all hardcore metaphysical problems, are based in vague intuitions), but it certainly is small if you're working from a very strict (e.g., literal Biblical) standing.

Ok. Do I understand that correctly: We do away with the entire "With god everything is possible/God is beyond time, space, logic, whatnot/Who are you to put god in a small human box?" concept, and basically replace it by "With god everything that´s possible is possible (i.e. with god everything is possible that would be possible without god as well)"?

Fine with me. However, I just hope you are aware that the implications I have spoken about above would be huge. If god in creating the universe was bound by the very laws/rules/conditions that we are subjected to within the universe, an entire field of theology would be out the window: E.g. god wouldn´t be necessary, and "god did it by virtue of his omnipotence" would not be acceptable as an explanation. The entire "God is able to create matter from nothing (or from spirituality") wouldn´t be applicable because this is exactly what the rules/laws/conditions within this universe do not allow for) .

I don't think I'm saying that transcending scientific laws or adhering to our current understanding of logic doesn't apply to God; I'm saying that it would be impossible to imagine a world where there were different logical laws -- for example, that the law of contradiction or law of causality were somehow different. What does that even mean? My interpretation of anything involves these very rules, so it's impossible (nonsensical) for me to imagine God working according to different rules.

That said, I don't think God is beyond logic (whatever that would even mean). This doesn't mean that God is somehow "limited" by logic, as if logic was a rope that somehow held him from doing things He would otherwise do. Actually, I only think there was one serious philosopher (Descartes) who believed that God was "beyond" logic.

Anyway, if you postulate that "omnipotent" doesn´t mean "all-powerful" (but just "some sort of pretty powerful"), for purposes of a meaningful discussion I would like you to define upfront what powers actually entails in your understanding.

I'm looking at, I think, the Latin term: omnipotens, which means "power over all." That's not entirely crystal clear, but (to me), but let's start by trying to understand power. Power is the ability to manipulate one's world as one would like. Thus, omnipotence means the ability to manipulate the entire universe as God would like it.

And while we are at it and so that I´m not in for another surprise it would be great if you could give your definition of "omniscient" - after all, chances are that at some point you will reveal to me that "omniscient" doesn´t mean "all-knowing" but "knowing that which is knowable within the realm of our imagination" or something. Thanks. :)

All-knowing, sure -- knowledge of all things.

On a more serious note, I am glad to see we agree that all these god concepts are nonsense.

I'm not sure they're nonsense in the sense of being inherently contradictory. I think they may be a type of nonsense in that we can't fathom what they entirely mean given that we're, after all, finite and we're discussing infinity (i.e., omni-anything).

However, when saying "laws/rules/conditions" I wasn´t even thinking of such a basic thing as the law of non-contradiction (or logic in general). Rather, I was thinking of simple things that are easily imaginable to have been created differently. Just to name one very simple example: I don´t see any necessity for a creatorgod to create the condition that injuries hurt and/or that certain injuries cause death.

Let's imagine for a moment there was a literal Adam and Eve (which I certainly don't believe in). The original creation was perfect, then a fall from grace (perhaps inevitable, perhaps not -- not the point), leading to spiritual and physical death. If this is the case, who is it that is perpetuating death other than the breeders themselves? God could wipe out the whole thing, but, alas, that would mean death as well. So perhaps there is a reason to allow death and hurt for some grander purpose, and maybe death and pain are necessary for some reason inherent to human sinfulness that a future life will put into perspective.

Re "reversed": Naturally (and particularly in light of the claims that god is omniscient and unchanging) I don´t think the PoE would expect god to reverse his/her/its creation but to have done it right from the beginning.

How do you know it's possible to be absolutely right from the beginning? If you posit unfree will, then I imagine it's possible; but insofar as human freedom is possible (which can be legitimately defined, even though one isn't bound to accept it), how do you know for certain that a natural state of perfection (metaphorically) doesn't inevitably lead to a fall from grace (given freedom's tendency to choose evil), which in turn leads to a faulty creation that will be corrected in the future, teleologically justifying the original fall from grace?

No, and your wording "chooses to create the world using evolution" implies that there must have been other options. Which is exactly my starting point.
Same goes for "freewill" (whatever that´s supposed to mean - I guess I will never get a coherent explanation, and therefore I´d like you to understand that I am not willing to discuss it in detail for the time being). If freewill necessitates evil, and if god wanted to keep evil from us, god could have created us without this ominous "freewill".

Could he? Although I completely respect your position against free will, imagine that free will does exist (existence isn't limited by our comprehension of that which exists), and that free will is somehow intrinsic to what it means to be a human being. That would make the idea of creating human beings without free will nonsensical. It may be no different than saying that you can create human beings who aren't conscious.

Yes, sure (and I may add they are vague even if we don´t speak about the grand scheme of things.
Fortunately, though, those terms aren´t part of the PoE argument, and thus the relevance of this point escapes me.

They're relevant because we're speaking about the grand scheme of things -- i.e., teleology, the end result, which philosophically can justify the means involved. My point is that we can't seem to get too far ahead of ourselves without diving into murky waters. I can understand what it means to say that God is "good", because the goodness affects me directly through such things as, e.g., love. Imagine a parent who is "good" and "loving" who has a disobedient child. The parent allows the child to rebel in the hope that it will eventually come around and return to the parent. Now, the parent is perceived as good by the child because, let's say, the parent is loving and kind and acceptant of the child when he comes around for Christmas gatherings. But the trickier part is that the part is still good even though he is allowing the child to rebel, simply because trying to force his love on the child would result in stronger rebellion.
 
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thesunisout

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The only evil is what man does. If man followed God there would be no evil. God allowed us free will to love Him or not. He said those who hate me love death.

John 3:19

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Man perpetuates evil..God allows it because of free will. However He set a time for judgement, and after that there will be no more sin.

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"
-Epicurus

How can we answer this?
 
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