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Problem of Evil

Species8472

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Opethian said:
One body, no soul. A soul is just an imagination, one that seeks to explain how the rational part of the body works without an understanding of the body.

The voice of the Devil.

All Bibles or sacred codes have been the causes of the following Errors.


1. That Man has two real existing principles Viz: a Body & a Soul.
2. That Energy, call'd Evil, is alone from the Body, & that Reason, call'd Good, is alone from the Soul.
3. That God will torment Man in Eternity for following his Energies.

But the following Contraries to these are True 1. Man has no Body distinct from his Soul for that call'd Body is a portion of Soul discern'd by the five Senses, the chief inlets of Soul in this age
2. Energy is the only life and is from the Body and Reason is the bound or outward circumference of Energy.
3 Energy is Eternal Delight

William blake, marriage of heaven and hell
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/blake_ma.html

No body, one soul; rather. I think therefore I am. I've imagined myself to be true. And everything once imagined is now true. Take the wheel for example--that was imagined not with man but with the power of truth--conceptualized.
Immanuel kant once asked: Which are in necessary agreement? That concepts make experience possible or that experience makes concepts possible. Are not both in necessary agreement? As both concept and experience feeds off of eachother--to form what you call the soul, or imagination. What would make concept and experience possible if man did not possess a soul as to discern the imagination; a living-breathing conscience.:holy:
 
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Telephone

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Adiya said:
That's ok, I do. I'll tell you.

Hell was created for Satan and the angels that followed Satan.


Why did god create the devil ?


Adiya said:
Second, you should know that God does not send you to hell. God does not want any person to go to hell.[/B]


God created hell, god created man, god gave man freewill to chose an eternity of torture in a fiery hell.

There is an obvious design flaw here, with omnipotence it would have been a simple task to have not created hell.

Simple really!


Adiya said:
The thing is, God won't force heaven or Jesus on any of His creation. There won't be one single person in heaven that didn't want to be there. So if you choose to reject Christ, then you have chosen hell for yourself. God isn't sending you there. You are.


If I place a baby in a room with a lion, close the door and wait for the screams as the lion does what is natural to it, I could, by your gods logic, claim I did not kill the baby but the lion did.

But this would be willfully ignoring the bigger picture, god created the system that sends the majority of his creation to an eternal torture, if his will is not to see humans burn and writhe for all time, then by Christianity's own definition, god has failed.

Adiya said:
It's very sad isn't it? The idea that there will be many people in hell, and many of them are what I'd call nice, decent people. Yet, these nice, decent people, will be in a place that also contains horrid, awful people, who spent their lives torturing others. Yes, hell will be full. That is why Isaiah 5:14 speaks of it having to be enlarged. It needed to be big enough to hold everyone that chooses to be there.


It would seem that god is somewhat of a tyrant of the most malevolent kind.

God should simply see that his design has failed and with a flick of his magic and omnipotent hand remove hell from the equation.


Adiya said:
God, came to earth, in the form of the Son, Jesus. He died on the cross for your sins to make a way for you to get to heaven. If you reject His free gift, there is no one to blame but yourself. There is a saying that goes "the door of hell is locked from the inside."


The door of hell was crafted in gods workshop.


Adiya said:
Sure. Hell exists. People who deny the Salvation God has provided for them, are going there.

It's sad. I hate it. I hate it for them. I try to show them what's going on. Some listen. Some don't. Which one are you?


Indeed it is sad, horrendous even, it was sad when the nazis locked hundreds of thousands of weeping Jews in the ovens and set them ablaze, gods torture chambers are no less disgraceful.

If you believe such nonsense.
 
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TeddyKGB

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Jamza said:
The key thing is your concept of hell. Not all us Christians believe in a burning furnace of sinners. Perhaps a more common view is a self imposed punishment; a lack of God rather than a positive punishment. The hellish metaphor could just describe the anguish one feels when he realizes he has missed out on communion with God.
Shouldn't I be feeling that now?

And isn't that rather cruel on God's part to let the disbeliever know that He exists only to tell the disbeliever that he won't get to commune with God for the rest of eternity? Doesn't sound so "self-imposed" to me.
 
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Telephone

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Jamza said:
I believe in a just God; one who gives every person an ample chance to believe.

What happened with me ?

Where was my 'ample chance' to 'believe' ?

I find the ideas in the bible nonsensical, the demons, devils, angels, gods, spirits and ghosts in religion are nonsense to my unenlightened mind, as I am sure you think the 'mountain gods' of the central Asian island tribes, Ganesh the elephant head diety of Hinduism or the ancient greek gods nonsense.

I have been born with reason and logic, critical thinking and reasonable clarity, I am unable to believe in something I cannot see either directly or indirectly, hear, feel, smell, taste, touch or sense.

Again, where was my 'ample chance' to 'believe' ?

I believe in a just God; one who gives every person an ample chance to believe.

Does a just father give his children ample chance to believe and when they fail to believe does he lock them in a room and set them ablaze ?

Is this the action of a 'just' god ?


Jamza said:
Its also not my place to dictate the fate of those who choose not to believe;

You have not been asked to either cherish or torture those you judge or to dictate fate, that is the role of the Christian god, you are simply being asked, as a Christian, for opinion on this.

Jamza said:
all I can say is the Christianity liberates me and Jesus brings me happiness,

having concern for one's own welfare and interests before those of others is wonderful for you, but this 'Well I am alright jack' attitude adds nothing to the debate.

Jamza said:
it doesn't require a sacrifice of my reason, and I hope to spend eternity with God.

Faith is an abandonment of reason, if belief in a supernatural god or gods was based on reason, fact or knowledge there would be little reason for faith.

If you knew god existed, your belief in him would be based on knowledge, you would have no reason for faith.

Faith and reason are incompatible. To follow a religion based on the supernatural means rejecting reason.
 
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morningstar2651

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Jamza said:
I was just wondering what Christians here thought about it. How can evil/suffering exist when God is both all powerful-and all-loving?
My non-christian view is that "all-powerful" does not exclude the power to do evil. We mortals, like the gods (including YHVH), have free will.

Telephone said:
Faith is an abandonment of reason, if belief in a supernatural god or gods was based on reason, fact or knowledge there would be little reason for faith.
Can we possibly interact with anything that is supernatural (outside of nature)?

I'd like to quote some excerpts from an essay titled Knowing Where We Cannot Prove by Karl Lembke.

Mark Twain called faith, "believing what ain't so." Twain often expressed a cynical view of religion. Perhaps he objected to the simplistic or outright stupid views of religion, and perhaps he was challenging people to look deeper and learn the true meaning of their own faith. Or maybe he was just a cynic about religion.
The point is, I don't think faith is about believing what isn't so. Believing the sky to be lime green with bright orange spots isn't faith, it's psychosis. Faith, as stated in the quote at the top of this essay, is about believing something which cannot be proven true.
We can show someone a candle. We can tap on it with another object, and hear the sound it makes. We can smell the scent of the wax, and feel its smoothness with our hands. If we light it, we can see the light of the flame, feel its heat, and smell the products of combustion. As the candle burns away, changes in the universe occur, rippling out from the center of action. All our senses confirm the existence of the candle, and the entire universe reflects its presence.

The Gods don't present Themselves for objective verification in this manner.

I took a course once, on the philosophy of science. The course spent some time going into the difference between "believing" and "knowing". The difference between belief and knowledge ultimately rested on evidence that could be shown to others. When I say I believe something, I am saying that in my heart, I regard that thing to be true.

When I say that I know something, I am saying that I believe that thing to be true, and I can point to things, visible to any other person, which I believe prove it to be true. The candle I can tap on with another object, that you can hear, see, feel, smell, and even taste, is one object, whose existence is supported by many different forms of experiential evidence. Belief, distinct from knowledge, is not supported by evidence.
Food satisfies hunger, and faith satisfies the hunger for the Divine. Hunger is a craving which arises from real physiological conditions. If we try to ignore these drives for very long, we will be much the worse for the effort. Rather than ignore physical hunger, we consume food, which is a source of energy, and ultimately, of light. When we feel a spiritual hunger, we reach out to the Divine, which is, in its own way, light.


It's entirely reasonable to assume that our drive to believe in the supernatural traces back, in just such a manner, to something real.


Whichever conclusion you arrive at, know that it is a conclusion based in faith, not proof.
Faith resides in the land between the borders of "I know it's true" and "I can show you proof". Faith is for those truths which are for one person alone. Each of us is an individual, a unique expression of the Divine, and each of us has a path through the universe of possibility. No one else can follow our path or live our life.
 
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J

Jamza

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Okay, lots to respond to here; I'm not very good at using the quoting thing, so I'll just respond to the points as best I can.

To start with Telephone's post:

1. You might say your ample chance has been, is, and is to come. Even this, engaging with believers is an opportunity.

2. Of course we've been born with reasoning and logic; its all part of God's gift to us, and we must use them. Actually I don't think polytheistic gods are nonsense; they were and to an extent still are ways of trying to understand the world. Their inventors did not have the scientific resources we have, and so thinking of personalities that control variables in life is not a simplistic idea; even if science has subsequently refuted them.

Now, devils, spirits, gods and angels; as found in the Bible cannot be concieved of as their medieval depictions; the concepts are merely illustrated by them. God himself and his liberating grace shown in Jesus are what we can be certain of. As for the rest of what we might call the spiritual landscape, some of the ideas are rather fanciful, and I wouldn't want to speculate further than the triune God.

3. As I've said before, I believe in a just God. I wouldn't judge others, as that is God's place. I realize that your operating with the view here that God is going to burn all the unbelievers. I however am operating on the basis that Jesus claims the only way to communion with the Father is through him. Elsewhere in the Bible it states God wishes all people to be saved; so I'm not going to accuse God of threatening to eternally punish all who refuse to obey; I'm just saying Jesus offers redemption; I don't know what happens to those who do not take that offer.

4. Faith and reason are not incompatible; is there really a differance? As an athiest, surely you need a lot of faith to believe the universe is the result of a quantum fluctuation that ballooned into the size of the universe merely because there was a non-zero probability of it doing so in an existance outside time.

Now Morningstar:

1. Christian understand God's power as: unlimited power to act in accordance with the character of God in order to pursue God's purposes. Evil is defined as not being God's will, so it doesn't seem to be an option.

2. As for the quotes about faith, its all very perceptive; you can't have faith if it can be empirically proved. But then how much can be proved about anything?
 
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Telephone

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morningstar2651 said:
My non-christian view is that "all-powerful" does not exclude the power to do evil. We mortals, like the gods (including YHVH), have free will.


Omniscience negates free will, to employ free will we would need to make decisions or choices, we would need the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate, the ability to act at one's own discretion. Omniscience implies the constraint of necessity, he knows all choices, he knows all decisions, all outcomes, everything, across the full specturm of space and time, and to compound this, he has always had omnipotence as he is said to be eternal.

So, where is the space for free will ?

An omnipotent diety cannot, by definition have free will.


morningstar2651 said:
Can we possibly interact with anything that is supernatural (outside of nature)?

Religion claims we can, god speaks to the devout, he answers prayers, he sent his son to earth, he constructed our planet, he constructed our morality and so on. The main difference between theism and deism is the interaction in the former and the lack of interaction in the latter.
 
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Cheli

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I wrote an essay on this topic recently. I guess it's more suited to the early part of the thread but here it is anyway:

Does the Free Will Defence solve the problem of evil?


Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but unwilling? Then he is not benevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

So goes the argument against belief in the Judeo-Christian God, (henceforth referred to as God), known as the problem of evil. One of the earliest examples of the argument was developed by Epicurus and has proved to be a lasting and very debatable issue.

Taken at face value the argument appears to be a very logical, uncomplicated indictment of belief in God. The argument rests on the idea that two of God’s characteristics are irreconcilable with the existence of evil in this world. The existence of evil is seemingly incompatible with the notion that God is both benevolent and omnipotent for his omnipotence would make it possible for Him to prevent evil and His benevolence would require Him to do so. It is clearly not the case, however, that evil is always prevented. Therefore either one or both of these characteristics should not be attributed to God. The problem now is that it is impossible for God to still be God without benevolence and/or omnipotence.

But if the argument was that clear-cut the world’s major monotheistic religions would not have continued to survive. In response to the problem of evil, theists have developed theodicies in an attempt to discover why God does allow evil and so show that the problem of evil is not sufficient proof that God does not exist. One such theodicy is the Free Will Defence.

Before the arguments are pitted against one another, it is necessary to be clear on the relevant terms as different thinkers utilise various definitions and this can determine the effectiveness of their arguments. The terms in need of clarification are: a) omnipotence; b) benevolence; c) evil; and d) free will.

Omnipotence is described by J.L. Mackie as being the ability to do anything and that “there are no limits to what an omnipotent thing can do,” and I am inclined to agree with this conclusion. By accepting Mackie’s definition I include the idea that an omnipotent being can do what is logically impossible (for example: make a square circle). Further issues are raised due to this strict interpretation of omnipotence and they will arise in the course of the argument.

Secondly, benevolence I take to mean, in God’s case, supremely good. This includes moral goodness and always choosing to do what is in the best interests of those concerned.

The definition of evil can be ambiguous and vague. Some take it to mean a lack of goodness, some do not believe it to be a substance in its own right, and others even dispute the idea that evil exists at all. These opinions, I believe, can be dismissed as “pain is not simply the absence of pleasure”. Therefore I will be treating evil as a substance in its own right and as a sweeping term to cover all types of suffering, be it caused directly by people (for example: war), or by natural means (for example: an earthquake). The former will be referred to as moral evil, the latter as natural evil.

Finally, the meaning of free will and all it entails must be clarified. In the context of the Free Will Defence I take free will to refer to the ability of every mentally sound person to act in accordance with his or her desires without God’s intervention.

Now that the terms are defined the Free Will Defence can be explained. This argument seeks to nullify the problem of evil through showing that the trio of incompatible elements (i.e. God’s omnipotence, God’s benevolence and the existence of evil) are able to co-exist without causing a logical impossibility. As evil has been classified into two categories, so the Free Will Defence has two lines of argument. One confronts moral evil; the other is to explain natural evil. Both arguments begin on the common ground of the notion that humans were given free will by God, but then take slightly different routes in explaining how that free will causes the two different types of evil.

Despite Plantinga’s claim that theodicies are a priori impossible because humans may lack the capacity to understand why evil occurs, he is one of the major exponents of the Free Will Defence. His argument deals primarily with moral evil and how it is caused by human free will. It is Plantinga’s claim that in having free will people are sometimes in a position were they can choose to do either the right action or the wrong; and it is a necessary condition of this freedom that they are able to choose the wrong. If they were only able to choose the right action then they would not be in possession of free will. Due to this it is impossible for God to intervene and stop an agent’s evil action whilst still maintaining that agent’s free will.

This line of reasoning is not without its detractors. One such person, J.L. Mackie, put forward the following argument: It is logically possible that people can always freely choose to do right, and god (being omnipotent) can bring about all that is logically possible so, “…why would he not have made men such that they always freely choose the good?”

The Free Will Defence has two replies to this refutation. The first is that it is logically necessary, if an agent be truly free, for their ability to do evil be sometimes realised. The second (and Plantinga’s reply) is that it is logically impossible to cause a free action. Here is where, I believe, the waters are muddied due to the fact that the debate now rests on the contentious issue of the definition of free will. It can be argued that every free action is caused by something and so saying that it is logically impossible to cause a free action is not a convincing counter-argument to Mackie’s objection. However, if the definition used is the one described above, the argument does have a valid basis as it is this libertarian freedom that Plantinga suggests is morally significant.

The question of freedom versus determinism is a complex issue and has a strong bearing on the problem of evil’s strength. Whilst one can argue that it is counter-intuitive to propose free will does not exist because even if we act in accordance with our desires we do not choose our desires, the circumstances in which we sometimes find ourselves nor the options available to us, it is still a possibility that free will is no more than an illusion Dismissing free will altogether in favour of a determined universe is a radical but by no means ridiculous theory and if it is held the Free Will Defence completely disintegrates. Therefore I can neither accept nor dismiss the Free Will Defence for moral evil based solely on the argument thus-far.
If, however, the notion of free will is adhered to, there are further arguments against the Free Will Defence.

One such objection is that God could have given humans a stronger inclination towards choosing the right action, making us less disposed to commit evil acts. Those subscribing to the Free Will Defence have two replies to this. The first and weakest of the two is that if our dispositions were any stronger they would be inconsistent with freedom. This reply is highly debatable as there are people with a very strong disposition to do good and others with an equally strong disposition towards evil. It seems that if God could allow one person a strong inclination towards acting in the right way, He could have bestowed upon everybody an equal disposition. The second argument is somewhat stronger and suggests that one could always have a better disposition. If one were 90% likely to choose the right option there is still room for improvement up until one opts for the good 100% of the time and this is back to the previous argument that God couldn’t make us freely always choose the right. This second reply is, in my opinion, a sufficient response to the objection from greater disposition.

Another objection to the Free Will Defence is that it was morally wrong of God to create humans with free will, knowing the consequences this freedom would cause. God therefore could not be benevolent. Richard Swinburne disagrees with this idea and likens God to a parent who lets their child make mistakes rather then impinge on their freedom. Other believers in the Free Will Defence would concur with this as they claim that it is better to have a free world with evil than for everybody to be mindless automata. Leibniz suggested that free will was an integral part of the best possible world and that moral evil was a result of this. Whilst the most militant of Free Will Defence objectionists might dispute this idea and profess a preference for a robotic world, theirs is not a theory that attracts many supporters. There might, on the other hand, be some credence in the Buddhist view that it would have been better had the world not have been created at all. Although not generally accepted, it may have an element of truth about it that does indeed cast doubt over God’s decision to create a world where such a high degree of freedom is valued above the prevention of the terrible consequences it sometimes causes.

Following from this comes the objection that God could have made a world in which we have free will but that when evil prevails there is no consequence for others. In other words, humans would have the freedom to make their own choices and those choices would affect only the chooser. Once again, Swinburne rejects this as a valid refutation of the Free Will Defence and says that “…the price of possible passive evils for other creatures is a price worth paying for agents to have great responsibilities for each other.” Prizing responsibility above impeding evil is, for me, highly questionable and so I do not find Swinburne’s defence compelling. However, I also find it difficult to imagine a world in which the impact of our actions was limited to ourselves.

The final objection to the Free Will Defence for moral evil is that the definition of omnipotence is severely restricted. Plantinga asserted that it was impossible for God to cause a free agent to always choose the right. This puts a limit on what an omnipotent being can do and this seems to be a contradiction in terms. One can argue that if God created logic he surely is not required to bind himself to those laws. Christians arguing against this fact should note several Bible verses that uphold the strict definition of omnipotence, for example: Luke 1:37, which says, “For with God nothing shall be impossible.”

Therefore I can not accept the Free Will Defence for moral evil is a sufficient argument against the problem of evil.

The problem of natural evil is more difficult for the Free Will Defence advocate as it proposes to explain evil indirectly through free will. One can see where the Free Will Defence has a valid argument in terms of moral evil as it can be obvious that free actions of people directly cause the suffering of others. However, using free will to explain something which humans do not control is a much more difficult task.

There are three main theories put forward by the Free Will Defence to explain natural evil. One, argued by Mark Sainsbury, is that it is the making of wrong choices that causes suffering. He states that God has given us the free will and the resources to eradicate disease and warn of natural disaster but we do not take advantage of what is available to us. Instead of building warning systems to prevent suffering from natural disasters we build nuclear weapons; instead of spending money on a cure for disease we use it to buy unnecessary luxuries. This argument goes some way in explaining why we haven’t solved the problems natural evil presents, but it does not explain why the natural evil was put here initially. Not only that, but it seems to promote the idea that if we gave the time and money to it, we could cure death – the ultimate form of suffering. Neither does Sainsbury explain how this theory could be applied to times before advances in technology. For example, one could not expect Neanderthals to be able to cure disease or blame them for not choosing the right course of action to warn of an on-coming disaster. Whilst Sainsbury’s argument explains why we are still suffering from natural evil, it does not provide a solution to the problem of natural evil.

The second argument is that humans are ultimately responsible for the natural evil in the world and that somehow human depravity is tied by God to the workings of the natural world. This view is contested even by some other theists, notably Herbert McCabe, who wrote, “Let us be clear that by no stretch of the imagination can [natural evil] be attributed to the viciousness of men and women”. The view does seem highly unlikely and Swinburne himself admits that it cannot explain animal pain suffered before the existence of man. He therefore puts forward another proposal, (one that is also held by Plantinga), which is that natural evil is due to the free will, not of humans, but of fallen angels or demons. He argues that it is possible these non-human free agents were trusted with the care of the material world and have abused that power, causing the natural evil suffered today. This can be (and frequently is) regarded as totally irrational. I also feel that it is a last ditch effort in an unsuccessful attempt to justify his belief in an omnipotent, benevolent God who allows otherwise inexplicable suffering. That fact the he says his argument is not “clearly [sic] false” (with emphasis on the word ‘clearly) indicates to me that he is aware of his argument’s shortcomings but is unwilling to accept the problem of evil is good evidence against God.

The last theory the Free Will Defence suggests is that natural evil was due to The Fall. The story of Adam and Eve’s original sin in the Bible is used to explain why the world deteriorated. This view can be discounted by using the Bible itself, however, as Jesus states in the New Testament that a son is not accountable for his father’s actions.
 
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Cheli

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CONT FROM ABOVE


Having seen merit and flaws in both sides of the argument I have come to the conclusion that the Free Will Defence is an insufficient stance against the problem of evil. I do believe that there may be a case for moral evil being due to the free will of man but only if it is accepted that people are truly free and limits are put upon an omnipotent being. This is, I believe, the crux of the issue and cannot agree that there are some things an omnipotent being cannot do.

However, where the Free Will Defence fails dramatically is in its attempt to explain natural evil. None of the arguments presented were compelling and even resorted to a dependence on demons (a solution that Swinburne described as indispensable to the theist).

It could also hold that it is irrelevant whether or not we suffer because of our own actions. What really matters is that God still created this world despite his knowledge that it would result in terrible suffering. The Free Will Defence gives no real answer to the idea that maybe this world wasn’t worth the suffering it contains and merely assumes that there is a reason for its existence.

I do not, therefore believe the problem of evil can be solved using the Free Will Defence. One could subscribe to the atheistic theory that the naturally occurring world is under no obligation to provide us with an evil-free home; or one could hold on to religion, which needs much reasoning and argument in order to reconcile such a God with His own creation.




Bibliography
• Baggini, Julian, Atheism: A Very Short Introduction, 2003, Oxford: OUP
• Cottingham, John ed., Western Philosophy: An Anthology, 1996, London: Blackwell Publishing
• Davies, Brian ed., Philosophy Of Religion: A Guide And Anthology, 2000, Oxford: OUP
• Harbour, Daniel, An Intelligent Person’s Guide To Atheism, 2001, London: Duckbacks
 
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elman

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Cheli said:
CONT FROM ABOVE


Having seen merit and flaws in both sides of the argument I have come to the conclusion that the Free Will Defence is an insufficient stance against the problem of evil. I do believe that there may be a case for moral evil being due to the free will of man but only if it is accepted that people are truly free and limits are put upon an omnipotent being. This is, I believe, the crux of the issue and cannot agree that there are some things an omnipotent being cannot do.

However, where the Free Will Defence fails dramatically is in its attempt to explain natural evil. None of the arguments presented were compelling and even resorted to a dependence on demons (a solution that Swinburne described as indispensable to the theist).

It could also hold that it is irrelevant whether or not we suffer because of our own actions. What really matters is that God still created this world despite his knowledge that it would result in terrible suffering. The Free Will Defence gives no real answer to the idea that maybe this world wasn’t worth the suffering it contains and merely assumes that there is a reason for its existence.

I do not, therefore believe the problem of evil can be solved using the Free Will Defence. One could subscribe to the atheistic theory that the naturally occurring world is under no obligation to provide us with an evil-free home; or one could hold on to religion, which needs much reasoning and argument in order to reconcile such a God with His own creation.




Bibliography
• Baggini, Julian, Atheism: A Very Short Introduction, 2003, Oxford: OUP
• Cottingham, John ed., Western Philosophy: An Anthology, 1996, London: Blackwell Publishing
• Davies, Brian ed., Philosophy Of Religion: A Guide And Anthology, 2000, Oxford: OUP
• Harbour, Daniel, An Intelligent Person’s Guide To Atheism, 2001, London: Duckbacks
"It could also hold that it is irrelevant whether or not we suffer because of our own actions. What really matters is that God still created this world despite his knowledge that it would result in terrible suffering." And He also created a world of incredible beauty in which there is the great potential for love and joy. We are all created mortal. We all die physically. That is the way things are. It is not a problem of evil. Why is it a problem that a loving God gave us a limited gift of life?
 
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Telephone

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Jamza said:
Okay, lots to respond to here; I'm not very good at using the quoting thing, so I'll just respond to the points as best I can.

______________________________________


To place text in a quote box simply type:

(Quote)place text here(/quote)

But use square brackets instead of the round brackets I have used here, the result will be....

place text here


______________________________________


Inserting a name like this > (Quote=Name Of poster)place text here(/quote)

Will give you...


Name Of poster said:
place text here


Again use square brackets instead of the round brackets I have used here.


______________________________________




Jamza said:
To start with Telephone's post:

1. You might say your ample chance has been, is, and is to come. Even this, engaging with believers is an opportunity.


My time on various Christian forums, which has been considerable, has done more than anything to move me away from what I now believe to be the deeply immoral practice of religion.

The majority of gods creations, according to Christianity are bound for hell, they plainly have not been given 'ample' chance. If we understand 'ample' to mean 'enough or more than enough' or 'plentiful' then either one of two things have occurred, either these creatures have been poorly designed (and knowingly so, in the light of gods omniscience) or 'ample' chance is not offered to everyone.


Jamza said:
2. Of course we've been born with reasoning and logic; its all part of God's gift to us, and we must use them. Actually I don't think polytheistic gods are nonsense; they were and to an extent still are ways of trying to understand the world. Their inventors did not have the scientific resources we have, and so thinking of personalities that control variables in life is not a simplistic idea; even if science has subsequently refuted them.

These ideas have been refuted because they are nonsense, they are simply not true, Zeus, Ganesh, Yhwh, all myth, all nonsense, they may, as you say, have some value as tools to understand the world, but they are poor tools that will only lead to a poor understanding of the world.

Jamza said:
Now, devils, spirits, gods and angels; as found in the Bible cannot be concieved of as their medieval depictions; the concepts are merely illustrated by them. God himself and his liberating grace shown in Jesus are what we can be certain of. As for the rest of what we might call the spiritual landscape, some of the ideas are rather fanciful, and I wouldn't want to speculate further than the triune God.

Why draw the line at the triune god ?

Jamza said:
3. As I've said before, I believe in a just God. I wouldn't judge others, as that is God's place. I realize that your operating with the view here that God is going to burn all the unbelievers.

Indeed I am, I understand that this is not the view held by all people of a religious bent.

Jamza said:
I however am operating on the basis that Jesus claims the only way to communion with the Father is through him. Elsewhere in the Bible it states God wishes all people to be saved; so I'm not going to accuse God of threatening to eternally punish all who refuse to obey; I'm just saying Jesus offers redemption; I don't know what happens to those who do not take that offer.

What makes you believe the stories in the bible are in any way true ?

Jamza said:
4. Faith and reason are not incompatible; is there really a differance? As an athiest, surely you need a lot of faith to believe the universe is the result of a quantum fluctuation that ballooned into the size of the universe merely because there was a non-zero probability of it doing so in an existance outside time.


Faith (in the context we are discussing here) normally includes some sort of belief in a god or gods and the supernatural, If this were absent it would be next to impossible to distinguish religious faith from atheism. If on the other hand you define religious faith as any kind of philosophical structure then you would be right to say my 'faith' is the same as a Christians 'faith' and I need a lot of 'faith' to believe the universe is the result of a quantum fluctuation but such poor definitions soon become meaningless and do not help clear the cloudy waters of the issue.

Faith in the religious context implies strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Reason, the power of the mind to think, understand, and form judgments by a process of logic, requires proof or proofs to be viable, otherwise it is simply faith.

Religious faith and reason are not compatible.
 
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jubilationtcornpone

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Just in case nobody has mentioned it yet, I'd like to recommend this discussion of the problem of evil. This article is based largely on the work of American philosopher Alvin Plantinga. Suffice to say that if mere earthly pleasures are not God's ultimate purpose for us, then He may have some ultimate purpose for allowing evil and suffering to occur.


 
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TeddyKGB

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jubilationtcornpone said:
Just in case nobody has mentioned it yet, I'd like to recommend this discussion of the problem of evil. This article is based largely on the work of American philosopher Alvin Plantinga. Suffice to say that if mere earthly pleasures are not God's ultimate purpose for us, then He may have some ultimate purpose for allowing evil and suffering to occur.
I don't know if Plantinga has ever addressed it, but there is an apparent flaw with his rebuttal. If God has a purpose for evil and suffering, then it can be argued that God has a purpose for every act of evil and every instance of suffering that occurs. Thus, humans would be interfering with God's purpose by preventing certain acts of evil or suffering.
 
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elman

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jubilationtcornpone said:
Just in case nobody has mentioned it yet, I'd like to recommend this discussion of the problem of evil. This article is based largely on the work of American philosopher Alvin Plantinga. Suffice to say that if mere earthly pleasures are not God's ultimate purpose for us, then He may have some ultimate purpose for allowing evil and suffering to occur.


It seems to me the ultimate purpose for allowing evil is so there can be a choice to love. Evil is I think a choice to not love.
 
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jubilationtcornpone

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TeddyKGB said:
I don't know if Plantinga has ever addressed it, but there is an apparent flaw with his rebuttal. If God has a purpose for evil and suffering, then it can be argued that God has a purpose for every act of evil and every instance of suffering that occurs. Thus, humans would be interfering with God's purpose by preventing certain acts of evil or suffering.

I do not believe that logically follows. God may have a purpose for allowing certain acts of evil and suffering to occur, but it does not logically follow that ALL acts of evil and/or suffering should be allowed.

Put it this way. A parent may occasionally allow a child to experience pain. For example, a parent may occasionally allow a toddler to trip and fall, knowing that this will ultimately help the child learn how to walk properly. (Psychologists call this "negative reinforcement.") However, it does not logically follow that the parent would NEVER intervene when pain and suffering occurs.

Additionally, the very act of working against evil is part of God's plan for our lives. In other words, our own characters are refined when we choose to combat evil. God would still allow people to act maliciously, but that's because their characters would not be refined if God were to force them to behave in a just manner.

In other words, God may indeed have sufficient reasons for allowing certain acts of evil to occur. This does not, by any means, absolve us of the need to prevent evil when we can.
 
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Species8472

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http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/Nietzsche/beyondgoodandevil_tofc.htm

The Greatest good does not exist in this world, except in Christ. The Spirit of this world is Satan; therefore Satan is ruler of this world. Through Christ and other teachers--we can overcome evil by not resisting it.
Behold, the good and just! 'Good' and evil in perpetual conflict, smiting eachother on the cheeks, as they see fit. Whom do the good and just hate the most--that which is lukewarm; They spew Christ out of their mouths. Christ said, those who live by the sword shall fall by the sword; whether they be good or evil.
Good triumphs over evil by not resisting it. Let the world burn in the beautiful flames that it was created for. Embrace the fire that Jesus blessed us with.
 
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TeddyKGB

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jubilationtcornpone said:
I do not believe that logically follows. God may have a purpose for allowing certain acts of evil and suffering to occur, but it does not logically follow that ALL acts of evil and/or suffering should be allowed.
I think it does follow, unless you wish to argue that there is only one possible (allowable by God) world. If we stipulate that in this world 6 million Jews, et al, died during the Holocaust, then there is a logically possible world in which 7 million Jews, et al, died, and a LPW in which 8 million died, and so forth. If all of those worlds are consistent with the Unknown Purpose Defense for the PoE, then it follows that God has a purpose for any amount of evil/suffering.
Put it this way. A parent may occasionally allow a child to experience pain. For example, a parent may occasionally allow a toddler to trip and fall, knowing that this will ultimately help the child learn how to walk properly. (Psychologists call this "negative reinforcement.") However, it does not logically follow that the parent would NEVER intervene when pain and suffering occurs.
But, in your analogy, the parent is God. God can intervene as much as He wants to, and it won't affect my counterargument. In the analogy, the child is humanity, and it is the child's possible interference - perhaps he never tries to stand so he never has the opportunity to fall - that is analogous to humanity's interference with evil/suffering.
Additionally, the very act of working against evil is part of God's plan for our lives. In other words, our own characters are refined when we choose to combat evil. God would still allow people to act maliciously, but that's because their characters would not be refined if God were to force them to behave in a just manner.
That is a known purpose, and is thus a different defense entirely. We are discussing the Unknown Purpose Defense.
In other words, God may indeed have sufficient reasons for allowing certain acts of evil to occur. This does not, by any means, absolve us of the need to prevent evil when we can.
So do you still wish to argue that God has an unknown purpose or will you go with the character-defining purpose?
 
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