Pro-Sex

[yasic]

This is one of those "Should a person have sex before marriage" threads, but I will take it up a notch:

I persoanlly believe that an ethical person MUST have sex before marriage.

Before I continue, I say this about couples who are (seriously) planning on getting married in the future. I dont mean simple teenagers should have sex for no aparent reason at all. (I do not wish to discuss my views on when sex is apropriate outside a relationship at this moment)


Now, I dont mean that it has to be a requirement, or that any legal action should be taken, but simply that an eitheical person should have sex before marriage as this is benefitial to both parties involed. My reasons are as follows:

One of the chief causes of divorce is sexual incompatibility. Even if it is not the main reason, it is often one of the big reasons that leads to divorce.

Couples who have sex before they marry, will find out if their sex lives would be compatible, and thus would be more able to make an educated decision of if they wish to marry or not, and this will reduce the divorce rates.

This can also reduce any stress levels that couples can feel right after they marry (possibly as soon as the honeymoon) caused by any sexual incompatibilites they find, which can then prevent any long term psychological problems associated with this from occuring.

I have a few more parts to this arguement, but I want to see people reactions first... thoughts?

 

[PatrickInDoubt]

On the surface, I don't like the inductive logic used in your assertion, but I do agree in principle. I wonder how many marriages actually fail due to sexual incompatability?

 

[Dracil]

People just need to be GGG (Good, giving, and game - read the weekly Savage Love column to understand)

Or, from wikipedia.

Dan Savage and his readers often use the abbreviation GGG. This stands for "good, giving and game", and generally refers to Mr. Savage's ideal for healthy human sexuality: that a partner should be "good, giving and game" when presented with a person's fantasy, however kinky or unusual.

 

[yasic]

On the surface, I don't like the inductive logic used in your assertion, but I do agree in principle. I wonder how many marriages actually fail due to sexual incompatability?

I perosnally know several who have had their marriage cancel due exactly to this reason, and I have heard that alot more do so as well (I do not have the statistcs off hand... I can try to look for them if you so choose).

However, I do know I have read many testamonies where sexual differences have contributed to alot of issues (even if it did not end in divorce)

 

[yasic]

People just need to be GGG (Good, giving, and game - read the weekly Savage Love column to understand)

Or, from wikipedia.

That is exactly the problem! Alot of people think that they will just do that with the partner and it will all work out. Most dont give a thoght to the possibility that sex might play a more important role then they think, and that it might actually not work out.

And I am not talking just about kinky stuff. Simply the ammount or preferences of a person matter. If one member wants to have sex every other day, when a second would only want to have it once a week, this could lead to some serious problems.

I am not saying it cant be worked out, there is always sacrifice possible, I am just saying that a smart couple should try it before hand to see if it is worth diving into before they do the marriage commitment.

I mean, its possible to work out differences in marriage for 2 members of different religions when both are strong in their faith, however I think we all agree it would be a good idea for them to discuss it and see how their faiths work out before they get married. I would say the same thing about sex.

 

[yasic]

I was really expecting to get jumped with such a thread, I am quite surprised I did not get many posts disagreeing with me at this point.

 

[bliz]

One of the chief causes of divorce is sexual incompatibility. Even if it is not the main reason, it is often one of the big reasons that leads to divorce.

Well... not so much...

The main causes of divorce are:
Extra-marital affairs
Family strains
Emotional/physical abuse
MId Life Crisis
Addoctions like alcholism and gambling
Workaholism

Sexual compability is a myth. It is not something a couple has or doesnot have. It is something a couple develops over time.

 

[papadex]

To add to your list of reasons, I's say it's a good idea because it removes the desire to have sex from the equation. What I mean by this, is that if you have sex before you seriously consider getting married, you no longer factor sex into the equation of the reasons why you'd want to marry this person.

My wife and I did this very thing. We began to talk about marriage one day, and decided it'd be best to be sexually engaged for a while before we talked more seriously about it. What I discovered is that I no longer used sex as a reason for getting married. Once we'd figured it out with each other, we had a much more open mind to consider all of the reasons to get married. Our decision was in no way based upon the desire to have sex with each other, and so I think we made a much more level-headed and informed decision.

I'm an atheist, however, I have many Christian friends, including my best man, who is an Alliance pastor. In observing thier actions, I found that many of my Christian friends married young, and in a hurry. They dated for 6 months before getting engaged, another friend dated for 9, and another dated for 13 months. They all decided to get married extremely quickly, and at a young age (20-22) when they're still in their sexual prime. I just wonder how much of their decision to marry was based upon that desire to have sex. I can't see that beign healthy in any way.

 

[Dracil]

Well... not so much...

The main causes of divorce are:
Extra-marital affairs
Family strains
Emotional/physical abuse
MId Life Crisis
Addoctions like alcholism and gambling
Workaholism

Guess what's a big reason for all these problems? Sexual incompatibility. If you refuse to put out, expect them to find it elsewhere, either digitally or in person.

If sexual incompatibility was a myth, we wouldn't have letters like this one:

Q: I'm a 20-year-old straight girl. For six months I was dating a guy I thought was nice and normal. One way my boyfriend showed he cared, or so I thought, was by massaging my feet after work (I wait tables to pay my tuition). Then he confessed that he has a foot fetish. He wasn't rubbing my feet to be sweet or tender or considerate, but for his own selfish reasons. I dumped him. He was very upset and is still begging me to take him back. We had been talking about marriage, but that's over now. I don't want to be with someone who has a fetish. How can I know if he wants me back or just my feet? I know a lot of freaks write to you, and I enjoy reading about freaks, but I don't want to date a freak. Where can I find a normal man? —FREAKED-OUT GIRL

BTW, his answer was basically:

There is a Karmic Rule of Kink (KROK), FOG, and it goes something like this: "Dump the honest foot fetishist and you will marry the dishonest necrophiliac."

And when you're lying in that tub of ice—and odds are you will, FOG, because you won't want to put your poor kids through a divorce—you'll remember that sweet, harmless foot fetishist whose heart you broke back in college, the man you could have married. And your heart will break.

 

[yasic]

Well... not so much...

The main causes of divorce are:
Extra-marital affairs
Family strains
Emotional/physical abuse
MId Life Crisis
Addoctions like alcholism and gambling
Workaholism

Sexual compability is a myth. It is not something a couple has or doesnot have. It is something a couple develops over time.

For starters, it should be pointed out that sexual compatibility has to exist. Quite simply, a persons sex drive is dependent on certain chemicals and his past experiences (due to what makes him aroused or more able to cope with sexual situations), which is quite easily monitored in a lab. Certain people have higher sex drives then others, so naturally those with more equal drives should be more 'compatible'

I am not arguing that the sexual relationship does not develop over time, this happens regardless of their initial compatibility, I am just saying that this is still a big issue, and it does affect how people act.

Its alot like the foods people enjoy (only the sex issue is on a higher degree as we tend to all like the same food in a culture), some people like spicy food, while others enjoy it plain, some like more meat, some like more veggies.

A couple needs to decide what food they will eat, and over time will find a nice selection that makes them both feel right, and both enjoy. However, having both people be very different about their food habits can cause a problem if you dive right into eating only alone without ever finding out the wants and needs of the other.

 

[FadingWhispers3]

I persoanlly believe that an ethical person MUST have sex before marriage.

Well I believe that would be an impossible demand since I believe that if some people mutually consent to have sex then they already are married.

Even if there is no priest, even if the law does not recognize it, even if there is no cake, even if the persons themselves don't consider it to be marriage.

 

[Skaloop]

I persoanlly believe that an ethical person MUST have sex before marriage.

Well I believe that would be an impossible demand since I believe that if some people mutually consent to have sex then they already are married.

Even if there is no priest, even if the law does not recognize it, even if there is no cake, even if the persons themselves don't consider it to be marriage.

So a woman could easily be married to two guys at the same time. Or even, really, a whole group of both men and women could be inter-married amongst each other in a whole variety of ways.

I guess there would be lots of brothers and sisters who ended up married in that way as well.

 

[Miss Mayberry]

On the surface, I don't like the inductive logic used in your assertion, but I do agree in principle. I wonder how many marriages actually fail due to sexual incompatability?

I would be interested in the statistics.

 

[yasic]

I persoanlly believe that an ethical person MUST have sex before marriage.

Well I believe that would be an impossible demand since I believe that if some people mutually consent to have sex then they already are married.

Even if there is no priest, even if the law does not recognize it, even if there is no cake, even if the persons themselves don't consider it to be marriage.

I would advise against this, as changing words because you don't like their common meanings is anti-productive. We use language as a means of communicating between each other, and we specifically assign certain words to have certain meanings. If I decided to say "homosexual" means "Being able to choose matching close to wear" Then I could by my definition go around calling tons of people homosexual, but this does not get us anywhere good. If I am to use the word homosexual, I should use it in a specific way that people understand.

And if you insist on using your own definition of marriage, then substitute the word you use that regular people use as "the common usage of marriage" in place of where I used marriage in the OP.

 

[Dracil]

I would advise against this, as changing words because you don't like their common meanings is anti-productive. We use language as a means of communicating between each other, and we specifically assign certain words to have certain meanings. If I decided to say "homosexual" means "Being able to choose matching close to wear" Then I could by my definition go around calling tons of people homosexual, but this does not get us anywhere good. If I am to use the word homosexual, I should use it in a specific way that people understand.

And if you insist on using your own definition of marriage, then substitute the word you use that regular people use as "the common usage of marriage" in place of where I used marriage in the OP.

This is a pretty fun discussion to have if you ever take a philosophy of language course (can't remember the details 'cause I was sleeping in class though ).

 

[FadingWhispers3]

I would advise against this, as changing words because you don't like their common meanings is anti-productive.

I'd bet you'd like Orwell.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm

And if you insist on using your own definition of marriage

Ok. There's no need for me to confuse things. Let's continue more clearly. Given the common definition of marriage, I would say that sex before marriage is not necessarily ethically obligated. I think it would have to do with personality and culture as well.

It's only ethically obligated where, as you believe it always does, sex before marriage is beneficial to the long term health of people whether it be by measuring compatibility or for other reasons.

 

[sparklecat]

People just need to be GGG (Good, giving, and game - read the weekly Savage Love column to understand)

Or, from wikipedia.

Hopefully he's not including cases where the kink is potentially dangerous.

 

[bliz]

Dracil -

Guess what's a big reason for all these problems? Sexual incompatibility. If you refuse to put out, expect them to find it elsewhere, either digitally or in person.

Workaholism is caused by sexual incompatability??? A gambling addiction is caused by sexual incompatability? Strained relationships with in-laws and children are caused by sexual incompatability???

If sexual incompatibility was a myth, we wouldn't have letters like this one:

I'm a 20-year-old straight girl. For six months I was dating a guy I thought was nice and normal. One way my boyfriend showed he cared, or so I thought, was by massaging my feet after work (I wait tables to pay my tuition). Then he confessed that he has a foot fetish. He wasn't rubbing my feet to be sweet or tender or considerate, but for his own selfish reasons. I dumped him. He was very upset and is still begging me to take him back. We had been talking about marriage, but that's over now. I don't want to be with someone who has a fetish. How can I know if he wants me back or just my feet? I know a lot of freaks write to you, and I enjoy reading about freaks, but I don't want to date a freak. Where can I find a normal man? —FREAKED-OUT GIRL

What a beautiful illustration of how a couple can learn about each other's sexual interests without going to bed with one another. They can talk to each other!!!

BTW - I don't see this example as one of "sexual incomp[atability" at all. Here was a sexual activitiy that she was uncomfortable with (no doubt in part because he was using her, she was not choosing to share with him) but that does not mean that they as a couple could not have developed a throughly satisifying sex life together.

 

[bliz]

For starters, it should be pointed out that sexual compatibility has to exist. Quite simply, a persons sex drive is dependent on certain chemicals and his past experiences (due to what makes him aroused or more able to cope with sexual situations), which is quite easily monitored in a lab. Certain people have higher sex drives then others, so naturally those with more equal drives should be more 'compatible'

You are arguing that if one person has a higher "sex drive" than the other, they cannot have a mutually satisifying sex life together? Wow! I know a whole lot of long married couples who are doing the impossible, then. Both parties can adjust and change, and usually do.

I am not arguing that the sexual relationship does not develop over time, this happens regardless of their initial compatibility, I am just saying that this is still a big issue, and it does affect how people act.

Is the frequency of one's sexual desires a factor in a marriage? Of course, but it is hardly something that a couple in love with each other cannot work out. Plus, frequency of desire changes throughout life. I doubt that you would argue that would be casue of ending a marriage. "My husband had a heart attack and we haven't had sex for months!" "My wife is pregnant and now she wants it all the time!"

Its alot like the foods people enjoy (only the sex issue is on a higher degree as we tend to all like the same food in a culture), some people like spicy food, while others enjoy it plain, some like more meat, some like more veggies.

A couple needs to decide what food they will eat, and over time will find a nice selection that makes them both feel right, and both enjoy. However, having both people be very different about their food habits can cause a problem if you dive right into eating only alone without ever finding out the wants and needs of the other.

Nice analogy... The sex life of a newly married couple is a totally new food - let's say, sushi. Neither have had sushi before. They may have looked at photos, and watched other people eat it and watched cooking shows... but until one actually eats sushi, no one knows how or if they are going to like it, or what kinds they will like. I know of no one whose initial reaction of sushi was "Wow! This is fantastic!" and yet many people react that way after they have been eating sushi for awhile.

Couples with different food preferences manage to work them out - why not the same with sexual preferences? Oh, some can be hammered out in advance - a vegan and a butcher would have a pretty tough life together, but they don't have to go to dinner together to figure that out.

 

[kopilo]

I don't think it would be beneficial for asexuals to have sex before marriage.