Pro-Life, Anti-Mask?

[Clizby WampusCat]

. Because they show that in the next slide # 20 . They don’t believe women have the same rights to control their own lives that men do

Slide 20 only says this:

ABORTION BANS MOTIVATING DEMOCRATS.

Where do men say they don't want women to control their own lives?

 

[JackRT]

So people who try to get their morals from the bible are mysogynistic and homophobic in your view.

I view the Bible as a very human document that emerged out of a society that was misogynistic and homophobic and extremely patriarchal.

 

[muichimotsu]

To add to that, I also have a sneaking suspicion that homophobia is based on misogyny as well! I’m very pro choice, Pro birth control and pro family planning. Women just aren’t baby machines! Women shouldn’t be submissive to men just because they are male. That is pretty much telling women that being bullied is acceptable if you’re a woman. Chimps act like that and while we’re related to chimps, we’re a different species . I agree that anti- choicers don’t really care about the babies

It was a Methodist preacher that, I think, still has the social media post that brought up how pro life in many situations is basically just picking a victim that doesn't complain and you can feel good about yourself anyway for white knighting on behalf of fetuses

 

[Strathos]

Again I'd like to emphasize that the topic of this thread is the inconsistency between pro-life and anti-mask beliefs when the same people hold both.

 

[Gregorikos]

Often you hear this argument:

Pro-choicers: Women should have the right to control their own bodies and not be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, so abortion should be legal.

Pro-lifers: Who cares about your rights? It's more important to protect the lives of the unborn, so the government should outlaw abortion!

But recently, you often hear this:

Government: This is a very dangerous and deadly virus that has killed hundreds of thousands of Americans, so during this pandemic, you need to wear masks to protect people's lives.

Anti-maskers (who tend to be the same people as the abovementioned pro-lifers): Who cares about other people's lives? It's more important that the government shouldn't be allowed to tell us what to do!

Does no one see the hypocrisy here?


(Let me just say that I empathize strongly with the pro-life position. I just don't endorse it because all the evidence suggests that outlawing abortion won't decrease it, just make it more unsafe for the mother. But the goal of reducing abortions is a good one, and historically that is best done by comprehensive sex education and access to birth control.)

Let's get one thing straight.

"Pro-life" is the name that we who are opposed to abortion chose for ourselves as the positioning slogan for our movement. It means "anti-abortion." That is all. It's our name. We chose it and decided what it meant.

If they're going to insist it means other things, then I'm going to call them "pro-abortion" rather than "pro-choice"

 

[Strathos]

Let's get one thing straight.

"Pro-life" is the name that we who are opposed to abortion chose for ourselves as the positioning slogan for our movement. It means "anti-abortion." That is all. It's our name. We chose it and decided what it meant.

If they're going to insist it means other things, then I'm going to call them "pro-abortion" rather than "pro-choice"

But the idea is that the government should be able to limit people's rights in order to save lives, right? So why does that apply in one case but not the other?

 

[muichimotsu]

Again I'd like to emphasize that the topic of this thread is the inconsistency between pro-life and anti-mask beliefs when the same people hold both.

Most people tend to mean pro birth or pro fetus when they say pro life rather than being remotely consistent.

Problem is that sometimes there is going to be a conflict if you try to hold life as absolutely valuable over liberty, and thus you'd have to either focus purely on one or understand that there can be a balance in terms of protecting life as much as possible versus protecting life even at the loss of liberty (which is IRONIC given how much anti maskers cry about their liberties and then would mourn dead babies that they focus on over the probably thousands, if not tens of thousands or more, children in the adoption system)

 

[muichimotsu]

Let's get one thing straight.

"Pro-life" is the name that we who are opposed to abortion chose for ourselves as the positioning slogan for our movement. It means "anti-abortion." That is all. It's our name. We chose it and decided what it meant.

If they're going to insist it means other things, then I'm going to call them "pro-abortion" rather than "pro-choice"

Pro abortion rights is not pro abortion and pro choice is not some idea that the choice must be what you agree with. I support a woman who wants to carry a child to term and give it up for adoption, but I also support a woman being able to have the option of an abortion, even if I would prefer the accidental pregnancies and such not be a thing in the first place with better sex ed (i.e. not abstinence only, because that doesn't work)

If it meant anti abortion, you could've framed it better than pro life while simultaneously giving the boot to orphaned kids, advocating capital punishment and suggesting military interventions, as many pro life people, I'm pretty sure, would support in spite of the blatant hypocrisy. Pro birth would at least be honest, even if it isn't as marketable, but politics doesn't always need marketing

 

[NBB]

I view the Bible as a very human document that emerged out of a society that was misogynistic and homophobic and extremely patriarchal.

What the bible teach is not mysoginistyc at all though where is the mistreatment of women when it says to love you wife as christ loved the church and treat her with delicacy. And to be wise with them.

Also whos the homosexual friend in this scenario: someone who warns them of a great danger and advise them to avoid it, or someone who pats them in the back and say them to enjoy life that everything is ok and doesn't warn them.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

It is really simple, No masks and no abortions. It is a win-win for Freedom!

 

[muichimotsu]

It is really simple, No masks and no abortions. It is a win-win for Freedom!

Sarcasm? My instinct was that it was intended as such, but online posts are...tough to tell tone from, sadly.

 

[Brightmoon]

Soon after they passed the law that made abortion legal , the child abuse rates went down . Immature People weren’t taking it out on their children that they felt trapped by the child .

 

[Brightmoon]

Let's get one thing straight.

"Pro-life" is the name that we who are opposed to abortion chose for ourselves as the positioning slogan for our movement. It means "anti-abortion." That is all. It's our name. We chose it and decided what it meant.

If they're going to insist it means other things, then I'm going to call them "pro-abortion" rather than "pro-choice"

you can call it that but it wouldn’t be accurate. Women can decide for themselves how their bodies are going to be used. One reason marital rape laws were passed in some states is because too many husbands were forcing their wives to have sex or get pregnant against the women’s will. This is also why men shouldn’t have any say . about what women choose to do with a pregnancy

 

[Sketcher]

Often you hear this argument:

Pro-choicers: Women should have the right to control their own bodies and not be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, so abortion should be legal.

Pro-lifers: Who cares about your rights? It's more important to protect the lives of the unborn, so the government should outlaw abortion!

But recently, you often hear this:

Government: This is a very dangerous and deadly virus that has killed hundreds of thousands of Americans, so during this pandemic, you need to wear masks to protect people's lives.

Anti-maskers (who tend to be the same people as the abovementioned pro-lifers): Who cares about other people's lives? It's more important that the government shouldn't be allowed to tell us what to do!

Does no one see the hypocrisy here?


(Let me just say that I empathize strongly with the pro-life position. I just don't endorse it because all the evidence suggests that outlawing abortion won't decrease it, just make it more unsafe for the mother. But the goal of reducing abortions is a good one, and historically that is best done by comprehensive sex education and access to birth control.)

I'm pro-life and I'm pretty scrupulous about wearing masks. I let people know that's one of the reasons I wear a mask. I believe that putting others at risk by not wearing a mask is irresponsible, and some people could die if I don't.

Now, it is true that abortion as birth control - which is the intentional targeting and killing of an innocent human being, for the sake of convenience - is worse. But it's not a defense of refusing to do what you can to help limit the spread of the virus in public (wearing a mask).

 

[Sketcher]

Soon after they passed the law that made abortion legal , the child abuse rates went down . Immature People weren’t taking it out on their children that they felt trapped by the child .

Child abuse still happens, quite a bit. Killing isn't an improvement over other forms of child abuse, though.

 

[Belk]

Often you hear this argument:

Pro-choicers: Women should have the right to control their own bodies and not be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, so abortion should be legal.

Pro-lifers: Who cares about your rights? It's more important to protect the lives of the unborn, so the government should outlaw abortion!

But recently, you often hear this:

Government: This is a very dangerous and deadly virus that has killed hundreds of thousands of Americans, so during this pandemic, you need to wear masks to protect people's lives.

Anti-maskers (who tend to be the same people as the abovementioned pro-lifers): Who cares about other people's lives? It's more important that the government shouldn't be allowed to tell us what to do!

Does no one see the hypocrisy here?


(Let me just say that I empathize strongly with the pro-life position. I just don't endorse it because all the evidence suggests that outlawing abortion won't decrease it, just make it more unsafe for the mother. But the goal of reducing abortions is a good one, and historically that is best done by comprehensive sex education and access to birth control.)

Since I do not see the fetus as a person like I do others who are born I see this in different terms. While I understand your claim of hypocrisy (from a view that a fetus is a life deserving protection) I do not feel that it is warranted from my point of view.

 

[SolaChristian]

Again I'd like to emphasize that the topic of this thread is the inconsistency between pro-life and anti-mask beliefs when the same people hold both.

This thread has been quite all over the place but I'd like to comment on the original question specifically and just give one perspective...
So I am pro-life, but still have a lot to learn on the topic, and I'm also vaguely anti-mask. Let me explain why:

Regarding the pro-life issue. I believe that framing it in terms of "women's choice" and having "choice over their bodies" is a bit of a red herring. For me, the debate is ended when either side can prove that the fetus (Latin word for 'baby' by the way) is a person or is not a person. Because, obviously, persons have the right to life and to not be violently dismembered, have their limbs and skulls crushed and sucked away by a straw, or scorched to death by chemicals. For me, the evidence weighs in favor that the baby is a person, because it has all of the components necessary to develop into a fully functioning person within a predictable period of time, and the only thing distinguishing it from other persons is its location and level of development. The only way to get around this is by defining a baby in the womb as 'not a person', which sounds like a quite familiar excuse to kill persons. Anyway, whether or not banning it will actually decrease or increase the killing of persons is irrelevant, the state must legislate morality. You can disagree with this if you want to be pragmatic, but I think there's a case to be made for making murder illegal.

The pro-mask issue is completely different, because I don't think that there is nearly enough scientific evidence to prove that is makes anywhere near the difference that the government would have us believe. I mean masks probably help a little bit, but not the way that people are using them. Yes, if you only wear it once before washing it, don't touch the outside, have a properly thick mask, and wear it correctly, and everyone around you does the same, then it probably helps to slow the spread of the virus a little bit. But, you are not actually saving any lives by wearing a mask, since everyone will likely get the virus at some point anyway, and its mortality rate is so low that it's not nearly comparable with the amount of lives taken through abortion each year. Not even vaguely close. E.g., in my country, 20 000 people have died from the Rona. We average about 500 000+ deaths per year (only counting registered deaths, it's likely way more). We have a few hundred thousand abortions each year. Can you see the discrepancy?

Don't get me wrong, I do wear a mask even though I don't think it really does anything, but I think the hysteria around this virus is frankly quite laughable, and thinking that a mask will prevent you from getting it is quite close to delusional. And I also think that comparing this virus with abortions is immoral. The virus is a natural occurrence. If you are a naturalist, this is merely natural selection at its finest. But if the pro-lifers are right and the fetus is a person, then the fact of the matter is that we are committing so much infanticide that it's sickening beyond recognition.

 

[Strathos]

Wearing a mask won't prevent you from getting it, but it will prevent you from spreading it, in most cases. In your country things might be under control due to good policies, but here in the US it's a total disaster and it's only getting worse, mainly because of all of the people who refuse to take sensible precautions.

 

[SolaChristian]

Wearing a mask won't prevent you from getting it, but it will prevent you from spreading it, in most cases. In your country things might be under control due to good policies, but here in the US it's a total disaster and it's only getting worse, mainly because of all of the people who refuse to take sensible precautions.

Oh make no mistake it's as much of a disaster in my country as it is in yours. We are a full-blown third world country with a massively corrupt and inefficient government. To be fair, we did have a lockdown early on which helped to slow the spread, but even our experts are admitting that it didn't "prevent" a single infection, it merely delayed it. That's sort of my point. And we did have an unusually low mortality rate, I guess because of our young population. But even in your country with a very high mortality rate, those 200 000 odd deaths compared to the usual 2 800 000+ deaths per year? Still nothing compared to abortion stats. That's what my perspective boils down to - If (and yes I acknowledge this is an "if") it were possible to conclude beyond all doubt that abortion is, in fact, the murder of a person, then it is literally the most evil and horrendous abhorrent thing that humanity has ever engaged in, far outweighing anything else, even the Holocaust, by a massive margin, and cannot be compared to a completely natural and normal virus that has contributed only a small fraction of our usual yearly deaths. There are literally more homicides per year in my country than Covid deaths.

On the masks again - I recognize that you are convinced that they work, as are most people, but where are the peer-reviewed studies showing that they work? I have seen some that demonstrate quite the opposite. As I said, how many people wash their masks after every use, don't touch the outside, wear proper surgical masks, cover mouth and nose everywhere they go? Basically no one if we're being honest. So that makes them effectively useless, yet you're treated like a leper for not wearing one. My goodness. But also, there's the whole politicization of the pandemic, I think that's what bothers most people more than just having to wear a mask. I wear one, and I try to do it properly and I obey all the restrictions, but that does not mean that I agree with all of the restrictions.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Often you hear this argument:

Pro-choicers: Women should have the right to control their own bodies and not be forced to carry a pregnancy to term, so abortion should be legal.

Pro-lifers: Who cares about your rights? It's more important to protect the lives of the unborn, so the government should outlaw abortion!

But recently, you often hear this:

Government: This is a very dangerous and deadly virus that has killed hundreds of thousands of Americans, so during this pandemic, you need to wear masks to protect people's lives.

Anti-maskers (who tend to be the same people as the abovementioned pro-lifers): Who cares about other people's lives? It's more important that the government shouldn't be allowed to tell us what to do!

Does no one see the hypocrisy here?



(Let me just say that I empathize strongly with the pro-life position. I just don't endorse it because all the evidence suggests that outlawing abortion won't decrease it, just make it more unsafe for the mother. But the goal of reducing abortions is a good one, and historically that is best done by comprehensive sex education and access to birth control.)

Yes, I surely the hypocrisy of , on one hand. insisting that one has control over one's own body even if it means one is at liberty to kill another being but then insisting, on the other hand, that government has the right to tell one what one must do with one's body because it might save the lives of others.