Pro-Abortionists: Where on this chart is it just a clump of cells and not a human baby?

[98cwitr]

 

[ChristianGirl_96]

I am interestedly following this topic. I want to read new perspectives on a hot button topic of discussion.

 

[CaptainToad]

Abortion is murder.

 

[RaymondG]

Are we all not just dust that return to dust once breathe leaves our bodies? What does this fact have to do with whether or not people should be forced to follow the beliefs of others?

 

[JackRT]

There is no such thing as a pro-abortionist.
There is one thing that a great many people don’t understand about being pro-choice. You do not have to morally agree with abortion to be pro-choice. That is why it is not called pro-abortion. It is an undertstanding that you can’t make that choice for someone else.

 

[RaymondG]

Agreed, There is NO ONE who would say that believe that a baby, at any stage of development, should be terminated. The name calling is just a trick try and make those, who do not believe in forcing their will and beliefs on other, look bad.

 

[CaptainToad]

There is no such thing as a pro-abortionist.
There is one thing that a great many people don’t understand about being pro-choice. You do not have to morally agree with abortion to be pro-choice. That is why it is not called pro-abortion. It is an undertstanding that you can’t make that choice for someone else.

I think you do have to morally agree.

 

[SPF]

There is no such thing as a pro-abortionist.
There is one thing that a great many people don’t understand about being pro-choice. You do not have to morally agree with abortion to be pro-choice. That is why it is not called pro-abortion. It is an undertstanding that you can’t make that choice for someone else.

This of course isn't actually true. A simple search of google can put the claim that "there is no such thing as a pro-abortionist." to rest.

Why I Am Pro-Abortion, Not Just Pro-Choice | Free Inquiry

Also, let's just look at the actual definition of pro-abortion in the dictionary: "favoring the legalization of abortion"

Definitions matter, as many proabortion activists will be very specific in their definition of murder and spend enormous amounts of time explaining why abortion isn't in fact murder. Well, if definitions matter, then it looks like JackRT is acutally pro-abortion as it pertains to the actual definition of the term.

That being said, with regards to the OP, I don't actually see the majority of abortion debates centered around whether or not the unborn are human beings. That's basically settled science. Scientifically, we know that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization.

The argument has shifted away from when are the unborn human beings, and shifted towards a philosophical argument of creating a distinction between a human being and a human person, with only the human person possessing moral worth and value. If we can actually fabricate that distinction, then all we need to do is say that a human being is not naturally a human person, but must develop to level X before they are a human person.

Once that fabricated line is established, then people can argue that aborting non human persons is morally acceptable.

 

[RaymondG]

This of course isn't actually true. A simple search of google can put the claim that "there is no such thing as a pro-abortionist." to rest.

Why I Am Pro-Abortion, Not Just Pro-Choice | Free Inquiry

Also, let's just look at the actual definition of pro-abortion in the dictionary: "favoring the legalization of abortion"

Definitions matter, as many proabortion activists will be very specific in their definition of murder and spend enormous amounts of time explaining why abortion isn't in fact murder. Well, if definitions matter, then it looks like JackRT is acutally pro-abortion as it pertains to the actual definition of the term.

That being said, with regards to the OP, I don't actually see the majority of abortion debates centered around whether or not the unborn are human beings. That's basically settled science. Scientifically, we know that a new human being comes into existence at fertilization.

The argument has shifted away from when are the unborn human beings, and shifted towards a philosophical argument of creating a distinction between a human being and a human person, with only the human person possessing moral worth and value. If we can actually fabricate that distinction, then all we need to do is say that a human being is not naturally a human person, but must develop to level X before they are a human person.

Once that fabricated line is established, then people can argue that aborting non human persons is morally acceptable.

You posted an article of one who isnt a Christian. Do you have any evidence of a Christian who is Pro-Abortion?

 

[SPF]

You posted an article of one who isnt a Christian. Do you have any evidence of a Christian who is Pro-Abortion?

There are two ways to answer this. First, I can do what you ask and link you here:

Or, the second way is to again state the actual definition of the actual term proabortion: "favoring the legalization of abortion"

So the second way to answer your question is to allow Christians here on this forum, such as yourself, who are in favor of the legalization of abortion if you are.... in favor of the legalization of abortion... Thus... you are pro-abortion.

I'm all for updating and changing the definition if you want, but as of now, that's the actual definition in dictionaries.

 

[JackRT]

I'm all for updating and changing the definition if you want, but as of now, that's the actual definition in dictionaries.

proabortion
/ (ˌprəʊəˈbɔːʃən) /
adjective
in favour of the medical provision of abortion

In other words, legally available. It does not in any way mean the promotion of abortion.

 

[RaymondG]

Or, the second way is to again state the actual definition of the actual term proabortion: "favoring the legalization of abortion"

So the second way to answer your question is to allow Christians here on this forum, such as yourself, who are in favor of the legalization of abortion if you are.... in favor of the legalization of abortion... Thus... you are pro-abortion.

I'm all for updating and changing the definition if you want, but as of now, that's the actual definition in dictionaries.

Was unaware of this official?? definition..... Which is why I dont like to be grouped with any set of beliefs, nor do I group others.

Would you say that "favoring the legalization of abortion" is the same as being against the legalization of the removal of choice?

The definition doesnt really make much sense, in that it implies that it was illegal to begin with.....and now people are adding laws to legalize it.......But isnt it the opposite? There were no laws concerning it.....and now you wish to create laws to force others to do what you believe it right?

Nay, I believe that most desire for this to be handled outside of law, and not legalize anything.......abortion should not be forced on anyone....so why would you say anyone wants to have it in law?

 

[SPF]

proabortion
/ (ˌprəʊəˈbɔːʃən) /
adjective
in favour of the medical provision of abortion

In other words, legally available. It does not in any way mean the promotion of abortion.

Ok, so you are proabortion!

Was unaware of this official?? definition..... Which is why I dont like to be grouped with any set of beliefs, nor do I group others.

Would you say that "favoring the legalization of abortion" is the same as being against the legalization of the removal of choice?

The definition doesnt really make much sense, in that it implies that it was illegal to begin with.....and now people are adding laws to legalize it.......But isnt it the opposite? There were no laws concerning it.....and now you wish to create laws to force others to do what you believe it right?

Nay, I believe that most desire for this to be handled outside of law, and not legalize anything.......abortion should not be forced on anyone....so why would you say anyone wants to have it in law?

You can use any magical symantics you want if it makes you feel better inside. But words have meaning, words have definitions - it's how we communicate and how we know what things mean when people say them.

Merriam Webster is a fairly universally accepted dictionary, and it defines the term proabortion as "favoring the legalization of abortion"

Therefore, if you are in favor of abortion being legal, then you shouldn't have a problem being known as proabortion. Interestingly, you can be proabortion and also believe that abortion is immoral. Those two positions actually aren't necessarily incompatible.

 

[CaptainToad]

Isn't the term pro-choice just a euphemism for pro-abortion?
In the end its the very same thing imo!

 

[RaymondG]

Isn't the term pro-choice just a euphemism for pro-abortion?
In the end its the very same thing imo!

And that is the thing....you believe that everyone should be forced to respect and abide by your opinions.

Those who are pro-choice believe that everyone should be able to formulate, abide by, and face the consequences of their own opinions and actions.

To me, you forcing others to not have an option to abort, unless you feel it permissible, is the same as others forcing you TO ABORT when they feel it necessary....removing your choice to have your child.

But people who arent pro choice are not willing to give up their own choices.....they just want to take the choices away from others.

But I see things full circle.... I will harvest the fruit of the seeds I plant. I do not wish to have my choices taken away, so I do not wish to take away the choice of others.... And this have nothing to do with Abortion......for my sentiments are the same regardless the topic.

Therefore, it would be incorrect to call me Pro abortion or for abortion....because I believe in the general freedom of choice. I am against abortion....I just happen to be also against forcing others to do what I believe right. If you are For the forcing of another's will upon you.....then, you are right to try and force your will on others....

 

[SPF]

Therefore, it would be incorrect to call me Pro abortion or for abortion....because I believe in the general freedom of choice. I am against abortion....I just happen to be also against forcing others to do what I believe right. If you are For the forcing of another's will upon you.....then, you are right to try and force your will on others....

Again, the dictionary definition of pro-abortion = "favoring the legalization of abortion"

Therefore, as you are in favor of abortion being legal because you don't believe any action should be illegal, then you are indeed meeting the definition of someone who is proabortion.

On another note, I'm personally in favor of laws being in place to protect the innocent. And that is what laws against abortion are all about, protecting the most innocent human beings in our nation.

I support laws against driving while drunk because it protects the drunk person from making an unwise choice, and it protects the people he may crash into.

Likewise, I support laws governing the speed at which vehicles can operate. These laws are in place to protect people.

Laws against abortion are not about taking freedom of choice away from people. They are about protecting the most innocent of our nation's children.

So frankly Raymond, unless you're against essentially every law that protects people in our country, you're kind of a hypocrite.

 

[RaymondG]

Again, the dictionary definition of pro-abortion = "favoring the legalization of abortion"

Therefore, as you are in favor of abortion being legal because you don't believe any action should be illegal, then you are indeed meeting the definition of someone who is proabortion.

On another note, I'm personally in favor of laws being in place to protect the innocent. And that is what laws against abortion are all about, protecting the most innocent human beings in our nation.

I support laws against driving while drunk because it protects the drunk person from making an unwise choice, and it protects the people he may crash into.

Likewise, I support laws governing the speed at which vehicles can operate. These laws are in place to protect people.

Laws against abortion are not about taking freedom of choice away from people. They are about protecting the most innocent of our nation's children.

So frankly Raymond, unless you're against essentially every law that protects people in our country, you're kind of a hypocrite.

I find no fault it anything you say or believe.....Thanks for the conversation.

 

[CaptainToad]

And that is the thing....you believe that everyone should be forced to respect and abide by your opinions.

Not all my opinions.

And yes, I believe all people should respect life and not treat it like garbage. Might sound a little bit harsh but that's how I feel.

 

[RaymondG]

Not all my opinions.

And yes, I believe all people should respect life and not treat it like garbage. Might sound a little bit harsh but that's how I feel.

And it is fine for you to feel this way. But lets say someone disagrees with you and feel that they arent disrespecting life or treating it like garbage? Should they be forced to abide by your beliefs simply because you believe them? And if so.....would you be ok with being forced to do something that you did not want to do, simple because someone else thought it it just to do so?

If you dont mind, then you are right to desire to take away the choices of others while disregarding their feelings about it......because you will only be treating others as you would have them treat you.

And I am doing the same because i desire to be able to act within my own moral standard without fear of having to change them because of the opinion of another.

 

[SPF]

And it is fine for you to feel this way. But lets say someone disagrees with you and feel that they arent disrespecting life or treating it like garbage? Should they be forced to abide by your beliefs simply because you believe them? And if so.....would you be ok with being forced to do something that you did not want to do, simple because someone else thought it it just to do so?

If you dont mind, then you are right to desire to take away the choices of others while disregarding their feelings about it......because you will only be treating others as you would have them treat you.

And I am doing the same because i desire to be able to act within my own moral standard without fear of having to change them because of the opinion of another.

Raymond, do you think it should be legal for me to kill my neighbor because he keeps allowing his dog to crap in my yard? If not, can you explain why?