Pro-abortion

[The Gregorian]

Edit: Thread's further off topic than before. At this point conversation is pointless. It was intended to provide one side of the abortion debate to look at the side they don't normally look at, but certain people chose to disrupt that and refuse to be on topic. Just a warning for anyone who comes in late...




Points I would have made:

1: While I'm VERY opposed to abortion, I don't think there should be legislation against it. Although I do think it should be legally required that the patient gives a reason for it (i.e. "are you aborting this child because it's the product of rape? vs. do you just not feel like having one at the moment?). I believe that abortions should be like getting a gun or getting married, there should be a waiting period. I believe if the person is living at home (even if over 18), their parents should be notified. And if the person is in any sort of relationship, the partner should be notified. Lying about living at home or being in a relationship should be grounds for inapplicability for an abortion.

This is to cut back on the "I want to kill my child because I don't want my parents/boyfriend to find out I'm pregnant or I cheated on him."

2: I think abortion is -acceptable- (although unfortunate) if the child's growth is a danger to the mother. If the child is growing in the wrong place and could kill the mother if it matured, I don't think the mother is doing wrong by protecting herself. Still unfortunate, yes... but not wrong. I have a friend who was in this situation.

3: In the case of rape I would STRONGLY encourage someone against an abortion as it goes against my morals... but I can imagine how horrific that could be, therefore I don't think it's the business of government to say It can't be done in that case... however I think this should ONLY be able to be done if her parents are notified (if she lives at home), if her partner is notified (if she's in a relationship with someone), after a waiting period, and even then ONLY if she agrees to press charges against whoever raped her if it's at all possible. Again... goes against my morals... but should be available with restriction, if the woman feels it's necessary.

... also incest falls under the same category as rape. If you wouldn't consider it rape and you don't want to press charges, then you shouldn't have the option to kill the child.

4: If testing reveals a serious deformity... again... it would go against my morals, but I think that shouldn't be legislated against. Only the parent can decide what they can handle or not. I've met plenty of people born without limbs or with mental handycaps that live happy lives... Some are even productive. I'd like to see some sort of line drawn so that parents can't just find SOME tiny flaw in their child as an excuse to abort one that they just hadn't planned for... but that would be complicated and controversial. I'd like to see the child at least be given a chance, but I don't think it should be illegal to say that a child born conjoined, with a nonfunctional brain who had no chance of living past the first few months and cost the parents half a million in hospital bills futily attempting to keep it alive.

... otherwise, I can't really think of any excuses for it to be acceptable. If you don't want it... there's adoption. The world is NOT overpopulated. Yes, there are SOME families that adopt children and treat them poorly, but that's a separate issue. Those people should be hunted down... it shouldn't be an excuse to kill children and not even give them the chance to live.


Anywho... reasonable? no? Any more situations where your conscience would allow?

Hopefully this isn't for people who are already pro-abortion... that's the challenge of the thread... it's for people who are AGAINST abortion to tell when it could be acceptable (to some degree).

 

[karisma]

Hopefully this isn't for people who are already pro-abortion... that's the challenge of the thread... it's for people who are AGAINST abortion to tell when it could be acceptable (to some degree).

No one here is pro-abortion. We are pro-CHOICE, as in feel abortion should be an option for those who want one. And, looking at your post, you are also pro-CHOICE.

 

[Ave Maria]

I don't like the term pro-abortion. Very few people, if any are truly pro-abortion. The people that get labeled "pro-abortion" are actually pro-choice in most, if not all, cases. That said, if you're going to have sex, you should be responsible and go on the pill or use a condom or something.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

pro-abortion and anti-choice should be avoided altogether. I don't see any situation it's ok. I guess if a lady did it so she wouldn't die, I could understand...a woman doing it then to save her own life, but I still think it's murder even then.

 

[The Gregorian]

That's the point of this thread... everyone's pro-choice to SOME extent.

If a baby's developing incorrectly in a way that will definitely kill the mother by the time the baby's 3 months along, therefore it has no chance of living either... I'm guessing MOST people would still think it was sad, but if such a person had an abortion for that reason, most people probably wouldn't judge her TOO harshly or claim she would be going to hell. Of course there are SOME people out there that think that any time you're sick, it's God's will, therefore taking medicine is a blasphamy because if you're sick, God wants you to be sick, therefore if you die, it's God's will... But that's extreme and unreasonable.

However, the term "pro-choice" is often used to describe the concept that ANY woman should be able to have an abortion at any time she chooses... for example if she's 16 and just doesn't want her parents to find out she's having sex.

I'm very pro-life, but if the baby's growth is a danger to the mother's life, that's a situation where having an abortion may overall save life. Which is why the practice ITSELF shouldn't be illegal because on rare occasion, it's necessary to save a life.

The problem with being "pro-choice" is there isn't a line that can be drawn. I think abortion should be heavily restricted. In most cases it SHOULD be legislated against... but in certain rare and extreme cases, I think it should be available if the woman were to choose... But ONLY if she was raped and is pressing charges and she waits the waiting period and she refuses to have it and give it up for adoption.

 

[texasmom]

I tend to lean more towards pro choice myself. I do not believe abortion should be a tool for ignorant people to use in the place of birth control. I think that is reprehensable. After the birth of my second son my doctor advised against any further pregnacies because of complications that almost took my life during my second delivery. Also I have rhuematoid arthrits and have taken medications since my second son's birth that would cause severe birth defects in another baby if i were to get pregnant again in the next ten years or so. We were very careful with our birth control and we got my husband a vasectomy asap. I tell you truthfully though if I would have accidentally gotten pregnant again during that time I would have had an abortion. I wouldnt have wanted to and it would have been a really tough choice, but the two boys I have need me alive.

 

[NDNgirl4ever]

I believe if the person is living at home (even if over 18), their parents should be notified. And if the person is in any sort of relationship, the partner should be notified

Thankfully, that's illegal under HIPPA laws. If a medical professional violates HIPPA, they can be sued or even jailed. If you are over 18, you are an adult, reguardless of where you live. Your parents have no right to tell you what to do, and no say in medical treatment.

 

[Apollo Celestio]

They can't tell your parents if you're a kid? ;

 

[KET20]

They can't tell your parents if you're a kid? ;

They can't tell anyone, ever. If you are under 18 years old and you are having an abortion, you have to bring one parent or guardian (and everyone's photo ID's and whatnot) with you to your appointment to give consent, at least that's how it is here in Tennessee. It is also possible to get a judicial bypass to have your abortion without parental consent, though I imagine it's not easy to obtain.

 

[Trashionista]

- In the case of rape or incest.
- Psychologically, the mother is not ready to give birth.
- Unviable pregnancy.
- The fetus will be severely handicapped.

 

[KET20]

- In the case of rape or incest.
- Psychologically, the mother is not ready to give birth.
- Unviable pregnancy.
- The fetus will be severely handicapped.

That about covers it.

 

[The Gregorian]

I don't understand why people say "In the case of rape OR incest." In an incestuous situation, that constitutes rape. If rape charges aren't going to be pressed, why is it OK to punish the child, and not the rapist?

Of course a family member being the rapist is worse, but I don't see how incest could be used as the excuse instead of rape? Or are you guys simply using the term "incest" for "incestuous rape?" Remember, that if you believe the bible, everyone's related to SOME extent. If a couple is distant enough in relationship for their own morals, but fall under the category of incest (I'm not sure where the line is? 4th-5th cousins or something?), then I don't see that as an excuse for terminating the child.

... I also disagree with using "I'm not psychologically ready at the moment" because that can be the excuse for anyone and you can give it up to adoption... but I don't want to turn this into a pro-con debate.... trying to stick with the "pro" side of the "con" group.

... later I'll probably make another thread for people who are usually pro-choice asking in what situations abortion should be regulated.

 

[KET20]

... I also disagree with using "I'm not psychologically ready at the moment" because that can be the excuse for anyone and you can give it up to adoption... but I don't want to turn this into a pro-con debate.... trying to stick with the "pro" side of the "con" group.

... later I'll probably make another thread for people who are usually pro-choice asking in what situations abortion should be regulated.

Truthfully I'd simply prefer "I'm not ready at the moment". But I'm pro-choice anyhow.

 

[Trashionista]

Wait. Were only pro-life people supposed to answer this poll?

 

[The Gregorian]

Aye... the point of the poll was to get people to look at whatever side they WEREN'T on.

... so anyone who said they'd accept "I'm not ready at the moment" or "it would be inconvenient right now" as a reason for abortion... generally isn't the people I'm looking for.... for this thread at least.

It's supposed to be... People who are on the pro-life side finding an exception to their own beliefs. Then in another thread I'd ask pro-choicers if there were a situation when THEY think it should be regulated.

I.e., no matter how pro-life you are... if it's a pregnancy that would certainly kill the mother, almost everyone would accept that the person isn't "evil" for saving her life. Sad situation, of course! But not something you should be judged for by anyone.

Likewise, no matter how pro-choice you are, you HAVE to be disgusted by the people who abuse the concept of "pro-choice." People who freely admit to having "4 or 5" abortions (not even keeping track) by age 20 simply because "Having to remember to take a pill each day is inconvenient."

Both sides of the coin exist.... those are two extremes. But by FAR, most abortions are somewhere between those extremes. My intent was (although I'm very pro-life) to get pro-life people to stop focusing solely on THEIR preferred extreme (i.e. people using abortion as birth control), and vice-versa.

Hopefully by trying to take the side you're NOT on, people can better understand the other side, and eventually someone may actually do something.

Personally... I don't think it should be 100% always outlawed. That's unreasonable. But I think 4500+ abortions per DAY just in the US is an atrocity. I think it SHOULD be regulated as I mentioned in the first two posts. There are RARE occasions where it's unfortunately necissary.... but NO ONE can rationalize 4500 deaths per DAY.

... remember... the whole war thing? We've been fighting for almost a decade, spending hundreds of billions of dollars... we overthrew a soverign nation and killed it's leaders... in response to 9/11... where less than 3,000 people died. Meanwhile we abort 4500 every day.

 

[-~Truth_N_Trust~-]

I know this is going to be unpopular (get's flame-proof suit on), and I know it sounds naive, but I believe that there is ALWAYS another option - even if it does not result in a healthy full term birth. There is a difference between a tragedy and a willfull act...

 

[-~Truth_N_Trust~-]

I'm not going to comment about legislation, because I'm not knowlegable enough about that side of the argument - and quite frankly I can't provide a better solution other than stronger regulations and MUCH MUCH more support for women facing this situation... And the fact that my state government is now trying to relax the current legislation (currently it's up to 28 weeks...) sickens me...

 

[KET20]

I know this is going to be unpopular (get's flame-proof suit on), and I know it sounds naive, but I believe that there is ALWAYS another option - even if it does not result in a healthy full term birth. There is a difference between a tragedy and a willfull act...

Ok, understand I'm not flaming you. I'm just wondering if you can give me an example of "another option" for a woman who has a life-threatening pregnancy.

 

[The Gregorian]

^ Exactly the point of this thread, btw. the two parties tend to think on different terms. There's ALWAYS another option... for normal cases, where the woman just isn't ready at the moment.

But the pro-choice side tends to focus on the other extreme... it should ALWAYS be a matter of choice because some pregnancies are life threatening.

... there's no such thing as always. Sometimes there is no other choice. But in some situations, you should not have the right to murder for convenience.

 

[Phinehas2]

Laws are only a reflection of some deeper spiritual situation. To make abortion illegal will deny people the choice they have at the moment and probably send abortion underground. The problem is people are not being educated properly and to educate society it needs to realise its error first.
With rising levels of STD’s, AIDS and abortions society is soon going have to realise that its god of sex is not much of a god. No-one should be able to say they aren’t ready or it’s a mistake, if one has sexual intercourse the natural result will be conception so if it occurs it’s a failure of the precautions, not a mistake.
By saying ‘pro-choice’ it gives the impression that one may choose. Abortion should only be available in special circumstances for medical reasons, and the choice not for the mother!
In the UK there now aren’t enough doctors to carry out all the abortions wanted, many doctors are refusing to do abortions. So this should make the task of the government easier, like ‘sorry you cant have abortions by choice as we cant get anyone properly qualified to do them’