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Priests - What For?

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rugerfann

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Borealis said:
The Church ALWAYS had a priestly order, from the very beginning. The New Testament says very clearly that there is a priestly heirarchy within the Church.

Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority.

Acts 1:20 - a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is respected notwithstanding his egregious sin. The necessity to have apostolic succession in order for the Church to survive was understood by all. God never said, "I'll give you leaders with authority for about 400 years, but after the Bible is compiled, you are all on your own."

Acts 1:22 - literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.

Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.

Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.

Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

Acts 15:22-27 - preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

2 Cor. 1:21-22 - Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.

1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

1 Tim. 4:14 - again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

1 Tim. 5:22 - Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

2 Tim. 1:6 - Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

2 Tim. 4:1-6 - at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry . We must trace true apostolic lineage back to a Catholic bishop.

2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 - the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work.

1 John 4:6 - whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles). This is the way we discern truth and error (not just by reading the Bible and interpreting it for ourselves).

Exodus 18:25-26 - Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.

Exodus 40:15 - the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.

Numbers 3:3 - the sons of Aaron were formally "anointed" priests in "ordination" to minister in the priests' "office."

Numbers 16:40 - shows God's intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.

Numbers 27:18-20 - shows God's intention that, through the "laying on of hands," one is commissioned and has authority.

Deut. 34:9 - Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.

Sirach 45:15 - Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.

Ignore all of Hebrews why dont you!Shesh,realy this is insane,RE-READ HEBREWS AGAIN.The Preisthood has been done away with,Jesus is now the High Priest and the only one you will ever need.:)

People want a Priesthood becuase they want to go back to there day of Atonment.:cry:
 
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rugerfann

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StevenL said:
No "office" of priest exists in the New Covenant priesthood. The ORDER is now the order of Melchizedek....one High Priest and a brotherhood of priests (God's Called-Out) who have been born into the royal family. The separate Levitical priesthood in the Old Covenant order was instituted because of stubbornness, sin, and rebellion. It was not God's ultimate will for His people. He had already stated that they were to be A NATION OF PRIESTS. But then came the calves and the party. The tribe of Levi was separated from the rest of the tribes to minister to God because they were the ones who had the guts to stand with Moses and KILL their sinning brethren if necessary (which they did. 3000 of them.) Exodus 32.

Maintaining the separate priesthood (clergy) today is rebellion. It is denying the New Order. It is trampling under foot the Son of God. But...this practice was foretold and has come to being in a most marvelous manner.

People with the New Nature don't need a "priesthood" to stand between them and God to prevent their destruction. The church "priesthood" is a wonderful deception.

Exactly.I'm glade someone is telling the truth here.
 
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Archangel

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Also, why can only a priest administer communion and baptisim. In my church anyone prays for communiion and some members just pass the bread and wine around. Any believer can also baptise as well. Christ commands us to make disciples and baptise them [Mark 16]
 
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Dust and Ashes

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Archangel said:
It doesn't..because the traditions the apostles set that God requires us to follow are contained in scripture, For example, baptisim and communion, eldership, discipleship and church discipline.

Please provide some clear, unambiguous scripture for this.

Archangel said:
Well...scriptures are sacred writings, so Paul was not just talking about the Torah and prophets and psalms etc...but also the letters sent to the churches.

15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
[2 Peter 3:15-16]

Peter here reguards Pauls letters as scripture because he includes the understanding of them along with the "other scriptures"

Since the 2Tim verse is in the context of the whole bible now then it speaks for the whole bible...for all scriptures. God has inspired everything in his word.

I don't really have a problem with that since I was mostly being sarcastic and making a play on words. :sorry:

Archangel said:
The misinterpretations are the fault of who? God? The incomplete bible? Or MAN?

Man has made denominations, man has misinterpreted scripture because man is imperfect. Paul says in 1 Cor 13 that at the moment we are imperfect, but when we see God face to face we will be perfect. This is not a perfect Bride until she reaches heaven and is clothed for her wedding feast. God has given us a book and his Spirit, and a responsibility...to lead people to Jesus and bepart of a body. The Body of Christ is a unity of love.

Sorry, but that's a cop out. There is unity of faith and practice in Orthodoxy worldwide and there is unity of faith and practice in Catholicism worldwide. That clearly demonstrates that unity in faith and practice can be maintained in a Church for thousands of years with little or no change. I can follow the 2000 year old Scriptural teachings of the Orthodox Church or I can follow the <500 year old teachings of Protestant reformers based upon subjective interpretations of Holy Scripture.... I think I'll stick with the ancient faith of the Fathers.

If you disagree, then we just have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to give up my faith and I don't expect anyone else to change their mind for me. 'nuff said.
 
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rugerfann

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Archangel said:
Also, why can only a priest administer communion and baptisim. In my church anyone prays for communiion and some members just pass the bread and wine around. Any believer can also baptise as well. Christ commands us to make disciples and baptise them [Mark 16]

Simple,becuase christians have tried and have reinstated the Old testament Law (Old covenant)into the new Covenant.Man desires Rules above all else so he can pride himself on what he has done.:amen:
 
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Archangel

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forgivensinner001 said:
Please provide some clear, unambiguous scripture for this.

im in th uk so ill answer this later cause is 1.20am atm lol



forgivensinner001 said:
Sorry, but that's a cop out. There is unity of faith and practice in Orthodoxy worldwide and there is unity of faith and practice in Catholicism worldwide. That clearly demonstrates that unity in faith and practice can be maintained in a Church for thousands of years with little or no change. I can follow the 2000 year old Scriptural teachings of the Orthodox Church or I can follow the <500 year old teachings of Protestant reformers based upon subjective interpretations of Holy Scripture.... I think I'll stick with the ancient faith of the Fathers.

If you disagree, then we just have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to give up my faith and I don't expect anyone else to change their mind for me. 'nuff said.

im not following 500yr old teaching, im following biblical teaching which is frm acts and the NT. gGods breathed scripture.
 
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Archangel

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rugerfann said:
Simple,becuase christians have tried and have reinstated the Old testament Law (Old covenant)into the new Covenant.Man desires Rules above all else so he can pride himself on what he has done.:amen:

do u agree that any believer can baptise and administer communion or do u think it has to be a priest?
 
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rugerfann

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Archangel said:
do u agree that any believer can baptise and administer communion or do u think it has to be a priest?

I do agree that anyone in Christ can!Anyone who doesn't ignore all of hebrews knows that The Law,and the preisthood as it was was done away with.:cool:
 
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Dust and Ashes

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Archangel said:
im in th uk so ill answer this later cause is 1.20am atm lol

Ugh, I know how that goes. ;)

Archangel said:
im not following 500yr old teaching, im following biblical teaching which is frm acts and the NT. gGods breathed scripture.

Actually, you are following a 500 year old interpretation of Scripture.

Are you a Calvinist or an Arminian? Freewill or Predestination? Full or Limited Atonement? What is your view of the Fall and Original Sin? The Atonement?
 
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Oblio

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I do agree that anyone in Christ can!Anyone who doesn't ignore all of hebrews knows that The Law,and the preisthood as it was was done away with.

What preisthood was done away with ? The high preisthood yes, Christ is the sole Mediator before God, foreshadowed by the High Priest. But the Levitical preisthood, the foreshadowing of the presbytery, was never done away with.
 
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Oblio

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People want a Priesthood becuase they want to go back to there day of Atonment.

Uh, no, it has nothing to do with going back anywhere, it has to do with keeping the faith once delivered unto the Saints by Christ, after the Resurrection. Making a statement such as that shows that you do not understand, or have not researched that which you disdain.
 
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Leimeng

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~ The claim that only the: "Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority" Is as funny as it is sad and many would say false! At varous times there were both two and three different popes (apostolic lineage) simultaniously existing in the RCC. At other times there were females confirm to sit in the office of the 'vicar' of Christ.
~ If you base your entire theology on the traditions which some question, you are in danger of coming up with some very twisted ideas. Because some say the entire Catholic tradition is based on a broken and questionable tradition, it raises many questions. Is it spiritually healthy to follow a tradition or idea that is has soo many unanswered questions? If it is not spiritually healthy, then should we not ask questions about it?
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

~ You know what's wrong with the world today? People done gone and put their Bibles away. -Charlie Daniels
 
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Ann M

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Archangel said:
do u agree that any believer can baptise and administer communion or do u think it has to be a priest?

rugerfann said:
I do agree that anyone in Christ can!Anyone who doesn't ignore all of hebrews knows that The Law,and the preisthood as it was was done away with.


Of course you agree, and your quite welcome to your opinion.

"Hi Joe, How are things going.

What did you think about Pastor Steve's sermon yesterday?

Do you agree with his interpretation of 1 Timothy Chapter 3?

You know the Holy Spirit spoke to me about this and He told me that what Pastor Steve is teaching us is wrong and that we shouldn't be listening to him.

I've been thinking on this alot Joe, and I believe that the Holy Spirit doesn't want me to go to that Church any more. I don't think he wants me to go to any of the established Churches because they aren't teaching what the Bible really says.

I've spoken to a few other people and they agree that we really need to get back to just studying the Bible and doing what it tells us. We're going to start meeting at my place next Sunday to pray and read the Bible together. And after that we're going to share supper, so if your interested please come.

I look forward to seeing you there,

Bye Joe."


See anybody can start a new denomination as long as they can make a logical argument about why they are dissenting with their current denomination, and any other available denomination. All you need to do is convince people to follow you.

After all, the only person who can truly decide whether or not you are a Christian denomination is God, so there is no one on earth who can really contradict your claims successfully.
 
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Ann M

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Leimeng said:
~ The claim that only the: "Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority" Is as funny as it is sad and false! At very times there were both two and three different popes (apostolic lineage) simultaniously existing in the RCC. At other times there were females confirm to sit in the (false) office of the 'vicar' of Christ.
~ If you base your entire theology on the traditions which are intertwined with a lie, you are in danger of coming up with some very twisted ideas. Because the entire Catholic tradition is based on a a broken and false tradition, it would seem to be based on a lie. Why would anyone want to risk their spiritual health to documented lies?
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

~ You know what's wrong with the world today? People done gone and put their Bibles away. -Charlie Daniels


Can you prove that this is a lie? unequivocally?

Can you prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Pope Joan actually existed, that she was a real person, and that she sat on the Papal throne?

Don't worry about the Anti-Popes, they are ours and we freely acknowledge ownership of them, because only God is perfect and man is not. We do not asspire to perfection.

If you had to prove that

"The claim that only the: "Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority" is sad and false! "

then you would have to prove that every Bishop who has ever been ordained has been tainted, for it is the Bishops who ordain the priests who become Bishops, who ordain priests, who become Bishops etc etc. A select few may go on to become Pope, but they are not responsible for the ordination of priests when they are in that office. Maybe you can find a Bishop from Peter's time who was corrupt as that's probably how far you'd have to go back to cover every priest in our time.
 
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rugerfann

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Oblio said:
What preisthood was done away with ? The high preisthood yes, Christ is the sole Mediator before God, foreshadowed by the High Priest. But the Levitical preisthood, the foreshadowing of the presbytery, was never done away with.

WRONG!Re-Read hebrews again.It clearly teaches that the levitcal preisthood was done away with.Please stop going back to the DAY OF ATONMENT!IT OVER,Done with,Jeus said "IT IS FINISHED" why dont you believe him?
 
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Dust and Ashes

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Leimeng said:
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Is this intended to come across as arrogant disassociation or does it accomplish that by accident? ;)

Leimeng said:
~ You know what's wrong with the world today? People done gone and put their Bibles away. -Charlie Daniels

This is a little oversimplistic but there is some truth in it. Of course I'm hesitant to regard any of the theological references from this song simply because of the context.

"The Good Book says, so I know it's true, "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth" Clearly misinterpreting (actually, disregarding) Christ's teachings. Then follows the parts about taking people out and hanging them and/or feeding them to alligators, etc.
 
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Oblio

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Please stop going back to the DAY OF ATONMENT!IT OVER,Done with,Jeus said "IT IS FINISHED" why dont you believe him?

There is a term for claiming we believe something that we do not in order to be able to defeat it easily and thereby prove 'your' point, when in reality you have done no such thing, but rather have simply proved your own distorted premise. It is called arguing:

A Strawman !
 
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Patristic

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rugerfann said:
WRONG!Re-Read hebrews again.It clearly teaches that the levitcal preisthood was done away with.Please stop going back to the DAY OF ATONMENT!IT OVER,Done with,Jeus said "IT IS FINISHED" why dont you believe him?

How can we be sure that your interpretation of Hebrews is absolutely correct? What assurances can you give us? If you are an expert
biblical exegete whose interpretation is correct perhaps Christendom should unite under your exegetical prowess.
 
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