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Pride Vs Being Proud

benedictaoo

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i'm referring to the book "The way of divine love" where Jesus uses Josefa as his victim soul to suffer so that other souls could be saved. She was tortured by the devil quite frequently, and taken to hell aswell as purgatory. But now i'm confused, if you believe the devil was just a symbol for mans pride, and not real, then who's in hell? See it just doesn't work, the devil literally exists, no doubt about it. I do agree mans pride is a bad thing, as the Lord in the book I mentioned above said so, many times. Humbleness and humility are what he enjoys, and he can't stand mans pride.

I tried to tell you this before... and not being open to what a person who was only trying to help can also be seen as pride... and I only mention that because of the theme of the thread is about pride.

but you can not put a devotional book like this on parr with scripture or quote as if it is part of Sacred Tradition.

You can never use a private revelation to support any argument you are trying to make.

what is written in that book is purely speculation and one is NOT to build a theology around it. It has a very certain context it is to be kept in and this is why... it does not carry any real authority, even if it is true.

They are to serve a person in their own personal growth in holiness. You read it and you take what is useful to you away from it and leave it at that.

Devotional material is not part of the deposit of faith nor is it the same as scripture or tradition.
 
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benedictaoo

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Satan has great power over people.


This thread, FYI everybody is a testiment to pride and how it works.

Satan does not have power over people.

We have free will and were put here with him to be tested and tempted.

His "power" is that God allows him to tempt us becuase we are to choose God freely over him.

We have God's power in us to resist him but only if we choose it.

Because our nature is wounded by sin in a analogical sense, not a committed sense, resisting the devil, the world, and our own disordered inclinations is difficult, to the point we feel like we are a salve to it, but we aren't. We are always free to chose to resist and call on the power of God.

That is why Adam fell when Eve offered him the apple.
 
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FriendlyJosh

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benedictaoo I wrote prior, perhaps you didn't see it, the letter from the pope at the time saying he had no doubt that what was said in that book was absolutely real. And since the pope is guided by the Holy Spirit, I don't understand why you keep trying to dismiss it? The Holy Spirit, as you know, is what guided catholics to put the bible together aswell ofcourse. The way of divine love btw doesn't go against scripture, just adds on, and gives insight into various things. It was recommended to me by a catholic and I haven't seen any catholics who've read it, not give it high praise, or disagree with its contents, for the words of the Lord are undeniably beautifully.
 
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benedictaoo

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benedictaoo I wrote prior, perhaps you didn't see it, the letter from the pope at the time saying he had no doubt that what was said in that book was absolutely real. And since the pope is guided by the Holy Spirit, I don't understand why you keep trying to dismiss it? The Holy Spirit, as you know, is what guided catholics to put the bible together aswell ofcourse. The way of divine love btw doesn't go against scripture, just adds on, and gives insight into various things. It was recommended to me by a catholic and I haven't seen any catholics who've read it, not give it high praise, or disagree with its contents, for the words of the Lord are undeniably beautifully.

Josh, its opinion and the pope can have an opinion like anyone else. Every opinion he has is not an infallible one.

Do you realize that if I wanted to, I could even disagree with his opinion on this matter if I chose to and still totally be a good obedient Catholic?

I believe the book is real. I read it a few times but I can not and do not quote it to "prove" something is true. and there are a thousand other books like this.

Its is speculation and I swear to you, its true, you are not free to argue speculation as if its doctrine.

You really do need to learn the levels and rungs of Catholic teaching and how it works and the authority each one has. I only tell you this to help you becuase Catholicism is not a easy thing to understand.

Its not like protestantism where every body's opinion is "truth." The Holy Spirit DOES NOT! guide the pope in every last word that comes out of his mouth.

These books are devotionals and are to be used to aid a person in their own personal spiritual growth, they are not used to TEACH the faith.

You are trying to prove the existence of hell (which no one here says it doesn't exist) by using a book written by a nun.

That is not how Catholics do things. You would never see a pope use a book written by a nun to teach the faith or to prove a tenet of the faith.

I personally agree with the contents of the book but I do not and can not and would never argue doctrine using that.

Now do you also understand if this nun ever is canonized it was certainly not becuase Jesus spoke to her and it in no way is a validation that Jesus did... if she is made a saint it was purely becuase she was a holy person to a heroic extent. She displayed the fruits of the Spirit (do not confuse those with the gifts) and the three theological virtues (faith hope and love) to an extraordinary degree.

If she is made a doctor of the Church by a pope, then we can say, yes, her writings were Holy Spirit inspired but still, its will never be on parr with scripture or tradition.
 
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StevenMerten

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what you're saying, IMHO goes against scripture, you're trying to write off the devil as just being mans pride, when scripture says he's not. I don't understand how you can really think throughout the bible, that anytime the devil said or did something, that that's somehow just mans pride? Michael the Arch angel is no man, and he spoke to the devil, aswell as fought against him in heaven. So that alone shows what you're saying is not true. Also again in the book I read, both Jesus and Mary describe the devil, so he's not just a symbol, he exists my friend. Do not be deceived.

also if you re-read what you quoted, he said "a" devil, not "the" devil. He also descibes his church as his bride,in other chapters, does that mean the church doesn't really exist? Ofcourse it does.

Are you sure the Saint Michael (the Archangel) is not a human? Jesus, the Son of God, came to us as a human.

The devil exists. The devil is simply not a red tailed, horned creature who climbs into your head to tempt you. The devil is man's human pride guiding him to sin.
 
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WarriorAngel

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Are you sure the Saint Michael (the Archangel) is not a human? Jesus, the Son of God, came to us as a human.

The devil exists. The devil is simply not a red tailed, horned creature who climbs into your head to tempt you. The devil is man's human pride guiding him to sin.
He isnt human. Though angels can come in human form, and not be human.

Jesus became human for our sakes. Angels dont have that ministry or any ministry above God [they are messengers]...and Jesus is God.
 
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StevenMerten

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This thread, FYI everybody is a testiment to pride and how it works.

Satan does not have power over people.

We have free will and were put here with him to be tested and tempted.

His "power" is that God allows him to tempt us becuase we are to choose God freely over him.

We have God's power in us to resist him but only if we choose it.

Because our nature is wounded by sin in a analogical sense, not a committed sense, resisting the devil, the world, and our own disordered inclinations is difficult, to the point we feel like we are a salve to it, but we aren't. We are always free to chose to resist and call on the power of God.

That is why Adam fell when Eve offered him the apple.

Hello Benedicto,

I agree with you that man has free will and Satan cannot force one to sin. Satan, man’s evil pride, can threaten to murder your mother if you do not commit sin, but Satan cannot force you to sin. You have free will.

In the Martyrdom of a Mother and Her Sons, Satan, the kings evil pride, trys to tempt the woman and her sons into breaking God’s command not to eat pork. The mother and her seven sons do not fall to the temptation of Satan, which Satan is the king’s evil human pride.

Did Satan, man’s evil pride on earth, have power over the woman and her seven sons?


NAB 2MC 7:1 Martyrdom of a Mother and Her Sons.
It also happened that seven brothers with their mother were arrested and tortured with whips and scourges by the king, to force them to eat pork in violation of God's law. One of the brothers, speaking for the others, said: What do you expect to achieve by questioning us? We are ready to die rather than transgress the laws of our ancestors.


At that the king, in a fury, gave orders to have pans and caldrons heated. While they were being quickly heated, he commanded his executioners to cut out the tongue of the one who had spoken for the others, to scalp him and cut off his hands and feet, while the rest of his brothers and his mother looked on. When he was completely maimed but still breathing, the king ordered them to carry him to the fire and fry him. As a cloud of smoke spread from the pan, the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die bravely, saying such words as these: "The LORD God is looking on, and he truly has compassion on us, as Moses declared in his canticle, when he protested openly with the words, 'And he will have pity on his servants.'"

When the first brother had died in this manner, they brought the second to be made sport of. After tearing off the skin and hair of his head, they asked him, "Will you eat the pork rather than have your body tortured limb by limb?" Answering in the language of his forefathers, he said, "Never!" So he too in turn suffered the same tortures as the first. At the point of death he said: "You accursed fiend, you are depriving us of this present life, but the King of the world will raise us up to live again forever. It is for his laws that we are dying."

After him the third suffered their cruel sport. He put out his tongue at once when told to do so, and bravely held out his hands, as he spoke these noble words: "It was from Heaven that I received these: for the sake of his laws I disdain them." Even the king and his attendants marveled at the young man's courage, because he regarded his sufferings as nothing.

After he had died, they tortured and maltreated the fourth brother in the same way. When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you there will be no resurrection to life. "

They next brought forward the fifth brother and maltreated him. Looking at the king, he said: "Since you have power among men, mortal though you are, do what you please. But do not think that our nation is forsaken by God. Only wait, and you will see how his great power will torment you and your descendants. "

After him they brought the sixth brother. When he was about to die, he said: "Have no vain illusions. We suffer these things on our own account, because we have sinned against our God; that is why such astonishing things have happened to us. Do not think, then, that you will go unpunished for having dared to fight against God."


NAB 2TH 1:3
It is no more than right that we thank God unceasingly for you, brothers, because your faith grows apace and your mutual love increases; so much so that in God's communities we can boast of your constancy and your faith in persecution and trial. You endure these as an expression of God's just judgment, in order to be found worthy of his kingdom - it is for his kingdom you suffer - even if strict justice would require that God visit hardships on those who visit them on you. He will provide relief to you who are sorely tried, as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels; when "with flaming power he will inflict punishment on those who do not acknowledge God nor heed" the good news of our Lord Jesus. Such as these will suffer the penalty of eternal ruin apart from the presence of the Lord and the glory of his might on the Day when he comes, to be glorified in his holy ones and adored by all who have believed - for you already have our witness to you.

INT PRO 16:6
Through love and faithfulness sin is atoned for; through the fear of the Lord a man avoids evil.
It is the faithful who hold tightly to the will of God until the end, even in the face of mutilation of their bodies, as they hope for their resurrection into the eternal Kingdom. Although the martyrs have sinned it is the zeal in their hearts to love God through the commandments which is faith that brings them into Christ's mercy after death.


(continued)
NAB 2MC 7:20 Most admirable and worthy of everlasting remembrance was the mother, who saw her seven sons perish in a single day, yet bore it courageously because of her hope in the LORD. Filled with a noble spirit that stirred her womanly heart with manly courage, she exhorted each of them in the language of their forefathers with these words: "I do not know how you came into existence in my womb; it was not I who gave you the breath of life, nor was it I who set in order the elements of which each of you is composed. Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shapes each man's beginning, as he brings about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves for the sake of his law."


Antiochus, suspecting insult in her words, thought he was being ridiculed. As the youngest brother was still alive, the king appealed to him, not with mere words, but with promises on oath, to make him rich and happy if he would abandon his ancestral customs: he would make him his Friend and entrust him with high office. When the youth paid no attention to him at all, the king appealed to the mother, urging her to advise her boy to save his life.


NAB MAT 16:24
Jesus then said to his disciples: "If a man wishes to come after me, he must deny his very self, take up his cross, and begin to follow in my footsteps. Whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. What profit would a man show if he were to gain the whole world and destroy himself in the process? What can a man offer in exchange for his very self? The Son of Man will come with his Fathers glory accompanied by his angels. When he does, he will repay each man according to his conduct." (JOH 12:25) (LUK 17:33)


NAB MAT 10:28
"Do not fear those who deprive the body of life but cannot destroy the soul. Rather, fear him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna." (LUK 12:4)
(continued)

NAB 2MC 7:26 After he had urged her for a long time, she went through the motions of persuading her son. In derision of the cruel tyrant, she leaned over close to her son and said in their native language: "Son, have pity on me, who carried you in my womb for nine months, nursed you for three years, brought you up, educated and supported you to your present age. I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things; and in the same way the human race came into existence. Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with them."


She had scarcely finished speaking when the youth said: "What are you waiting for? I will not obey the king's command. I obey the command of the law given to our forefathers through Moses. But you, who have contrived every kind of affliction for the Hebrews, will not escape the hands of God. We indeed, are suffering because of our sins. Though our living LORD treats us harshly for a little while to correct us with chastisements, he will again be reconciled with his servants. But you, wretch, vilest of all men! do not, in your insolence, concern yourself with unfounded hopes, as you raise your hand against the children of Heaven. You have not yet escaped the judgment of the almighty and all-seeing God. My brothers, after enduring brief pain, have drunk of never-failing life, under God's covenant but you, by the judgment of God, shall receive just punishments for your arrogance."

Quoted from:
http://apocalypseangel.com/8.html
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Pride always serves the ego and is never without harm to the spiritual person. Even when being proud of some one else, the ego tends to draw the attention back on self.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Pride is the excessive love of one's own excellence. It is ordinarily accounted one of the seven capital sins. St. Thomas, however, endorsing the appreciation of St. Gregory, considers it the queen of all vices, and puts vainglory in its place as one of the deadly sins. In giving it this pre-eminence he takes it in a most formal and complete signification. He understands it to be that frame of mind in which a man, through the love of his own worth, aims to withdraw himself from subjection to Almighty God, and sets at naught the commands of superiors. It is a species of contempt of God and of those who bear his commission. Regarded in this way, it is of course mortal sin of a most heinous sort. Indeed St. Thomas rates it in this sense as one of the blackest of sins. By it the creature refuses to stay within his essential orbit; he turns his back upon God, not through weakness or ignorance, but solely because in his self-exaltation he is minded not to submit. His attitude has something Satanic in it, and is probably not often verified in human beings. A less atrocious kind of pride is that which imples one to make much of oneself unduly and without sufficient warrant, without however any disposition to cast off the dominion of the Creator. This may happen, according to St. Gregory, either because a man regards himself as the source of such advantages as he may discern in himself, or because, whilst admitted that God has bestowed them, he reputes this to have been in response to his own merits, or because he attributes to himself gifts which he has not; or, finally, because even when these are real he unreasonably looks to be put ahead of others. Supposing the conviction indicated in the first two instances to be seriously entertained, the sin would be a grievous one and would have the added guilt of heresy. Ordinarily, however, this erroneous persuasion does not exist; it is the demeanour that is reprehensible. The last two cases generally speaking are not held to constitute grave offences. This is not true, however, whenever a man's arrogance is the occasion of great harm to another, as, for instance, his undertaking the duties of a physician without the requisite knowledge. The same judgment is to be rendered when pride has given rise to such temper of soul that in the pursuit of its object one is ready of anything, even mortal sin. Vainglory, ambition, and presumption are commonly enumerated as the offspring vices of pride, because they are well adapted to serve its inordinate aims. Of themselves they are venial sins unless some extraneous consideration puts them in the ranks of grievous transgressions. It should be noted that presumption does not here stand for the sin against hope. It means the desire to essay what exceeds one's capacity.

Remember, even in our accomplishments, nothing we do is of solely of our own accord. The talents and skills we have were given to us by God.


Jim
 
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JoabAnias

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Pride always serves the ego and is never without harm to the spiritual person. Even when being proud of some one else, the ego tends to draw the attention back on self.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Remember, even in our accomplishments, nothing we do is of solely of our own accord. The talents and skills we have were given to us by God.

Jim

At risk of falling into the good ole boy syndrome: :D :thumbsup:

I am proud of that answer. ^_^ But really because I agree, and it affirms my own ego. ;)
 
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JoabAnias

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Just commenting on pride, i think, causes me to feel it. :p :p
It lurks... beware the pride trap. :p

I'm proud of you too, hope you know that. No sense denying my pride. Its a fact of life to deal with on a daily basis.
 
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