Prewrath?

[mark kennedy]

Doesn't that just mean you see believing Israel also raptured in Rev 7? It still does not explain how Prewrath plan to fit all of Rev 8-19 at the end of the tribulation period. Especially as the locust plague alone lasts five months (Rev 9:5).

They are protected from the locusts from the pit, the children of perdition are not. I don't know what they are doing, perhaps they are fellowshipping with the 144,000, how should I know? My concern is that the church, Jewish and Gentile is raised, translated, or whatever you want to call it, together. The specific timetable is 3 1/2 years after the closing of the testimony of the two witnesses, which is exactly half way through the Tribulation period which is exactly 7 years.

By the way, I am more convinced that the narrative of Revelations is chronological and do not hold to overlapping fulfillment. It's not consistent with the text, and frankly, contrived.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[ghtan]

They are protected from the locusts from the pit, the children of perdition are not. I don't know what they are doing, perhaps they are fellowshipping with the 144,000, how should I know? My concern is that the church, Jewish and Gentile is raised, translated, or whatever you want to call it, together. The specific timetable is 3 1/2 years after the closing of the testimony of the two witnesses, which is exactly half way through the Tribulation period which is exactly 7 years.

By the way, I am more convinced that the narrative of Revelations is chronological and do not hold to overlapping fulfillment. It's not consistent with the text, and frankly, contrived.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Hi there!
Please don't get me wrong; I am not questioning how people will fare during the locust plague. I am wondering how you fit the five months into a PreWrath scheme. Now reading your reply, you seem to be saying that you expect the Rapture to take place "after the closing of the testimony of the two witnesses which is exactly halfway through the tribulation period." Am I reading you correctly? (If not, please advise where exactly in Rev you expect the Rapture to take place.) Wouldn't that make you a subscriber to mid-trib rather than prewrath?
Blessings.

 

[mark kennedy]

Hi there!
Please don't get me wrong; I am not questioning how people will fare during the locust plague. I am wondering how you fit the five months into a PreWrath scheme. Now reading your reply, you seem to be saying that you expect the Rapture to take place "after the closing of the testimony of the two witnesses which is exactly halfway through the tribulation period." Am I reading you correctly? (If not, please advise where exactly in Rev you expect the Rapture to take place.) Wouldn't that make you a subscriber to mid-trib rather than prewrath?
Blessings.

I have no problem with the midtribulation rapture, except for the inclusion of the Jews in the resurrection. I was convinced of a midtributation rapture for years, still have no problem with it except for the inclusion of believing Israel. I see no real explanation other then a late or post tribulation rapture, but I'm open to alternative expositions if I can find them.

 

[BABerean2]

I have no problem with the midtribulation rapture, except for the inclusion of the Jews in the resurrection. I was convinced of a midtributation rapture for years, still have no problem with it except for the inclusion of believing Israel. I see no real explanation other then a late or post tribulation rapture, but I'm open to alternative expositions if I can find them.

Believing Israel is found in the passages below.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

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[mark kennedy]

Believing Israel is found in the passages below.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

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It clearly describes the women being pursued for 3 1/2 years. Unless there are multiple raptures the entire church is translated at the end of the tribulation.

 

[BABerean2]

It clearly describes the women being pursued for 3 1/2 years. Unless there are multiple raptures the entire church is translated at the end of the tribulation.

And that description is found after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and after "the time of the judgment of the dead".

Revelation 12 also includes the birth and death of Christ.
That should be a hint that the first part of the chapter is a history lesson.

Do you think Satan is now in heaven in the presence of God, and Christ?

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[mark kennedy]

And that description is found after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and after "the time of the judgment of the dead".

Revelation 12 also includes the birth and death of Christ.
That should be a hint that the first part of the chapter is a history lesson.

Do you think Satan is now in heaven in the presence of God, and Christ?

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At the cross Jesus when he was offered the gall, said 'it is finished'. The same term is used in connection with the judgments of Revelations:

Rev 10:7 the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, G5055
11:7 Now when they (the two prophets) have finished their testimony,
15:1 Seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up G5055 the wrath of God.,​

The operative term here is fulfilled, with it the crucifixion, the mystery of God, the prophets testimony marking the middle of the Tribulation period, and the seventh angle who had the vials of wrath, poured out at the end of the Great Tribulation. It's used to speak of fulfilling the Law (Rom. 2:27), fulfilling the lusts of the flesh (Gal. 5:15), and finishing a race (2 Timothy 4:7).

In answer to your question, yes, Satan still makes his way into the courts of heaven even though he was cast down when the Apostle's started their ministry, he went back.

And the great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, he who accuses them day and night before our God. They have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. And they did not love their lives so as to shy away from death. (Rev. 12:9-11)
​

Half way through the Tribulation the Devil is cast down, probably forced to posses the Antichrist. I think he has been kicked out plenty of times but this time he isn't coming back. He does get out of the Abyss for a short time and because of that the nations surround the New Jerusalem, that's his last hooray. In the account of Job he was the accuser, in the temptation of Christ he was the tempter, and when Jesus warned Peter that he would be tested he said it was because the Devil had demanded it:

"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren." And he said, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death." He said, "I tell you, Peter, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] will not crow this day, until you three times deny that you know me." (Luke 22:15)
​

Yea I think the Devil makes his way to the courts of heaven, I think he makes trouble for people of faith every chance he gets. I think he is in the outer courts, certainly not approaching the throne but can still communicate with God on some level. I think that ends half way through the tribulation and I have ample support from Scripture to support that.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[BABerean2]

Yea I think the Devil makes his way to the courts of heaven, I think he makes trouble for people of faith every chance he gets. I think he is in the outer courts, certainly not approaching the throne but can still communicate with God on some level. I think that ends half way through the tribulation and I have ample support from Scripture to support that.

Grace and peace,
Mark

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

What we think does not always match up with what is found in scripture.

Satan and the angels who followed him were cast down to the earth long ago, based on the scripture found above.

Why did you ignore the birth and death of Christ found at the beginning of Revelation chapter 12?


Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.




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[mark kennedy]

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

What we think does not always match up with what is found in scripture.

Satan and the angels who followed him were cast down to the earth long ago, based on the scripture found above.

Why did you ignore the birth and death of Christ found at the beginning of Revelation chapter 12?


Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.




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Those demons cast into the Abyss were from the antideluvian period, the are released for a while and torment the children of perdition. The man child the woman in the wilderness is bringing forth is indeed Christ but the 3 1/2 years puts this right in the middle of the tribulation. Most scholars have Israel fleeing south through the Judean hills, probably ending up in the Sinai dessert. I think that's the area the 144,000 are, perhaps at Sinai itself. Following the abomination the causes desolations the antichrist has his hands full dealing with the ongoing conflicts leading up to the final battle with the kings of the east and finally Christ himself. What is indicated here is not the birth of Christ in the incarnation but his return following the repentance of Israel. It looks like a period of long mourning and I suspect being ministered to by the 144,000.

 

[BABerean2]

Those demons cast into the Abyss were from the antideluvian period, the are released for a while and torment the children of perdition. The man child the woman in the wilderness is bringing forth is indeed Christ but thbe 3 1/2 years puts this right in the middle of the tribulation.

Once again, the above is your opinion, instead of scripture.

Christ was born 2,000 years ago, instead of during the tribulation period.

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
It can be produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 months in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.

You are also still ignoring the fact that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19.

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[mark kennedy]

Once again, the above is your opinion, instead of scripture.

Christ was born 2,000 years ago, instead of during the tribulation period.

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
It can be produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 months in the Book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its New Covenant context.

You are also still ignoring the fact that Christ returns in Revelation 16:15-16, and also in chapter 19.

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I'm not ignoring anything, the kingdoms of earth becoming the kingdom of God doesnt include the return of Christ. The bringing forth a child is reminiscent if the birth of Christ, but there is an obvious overlap here and a clear timeline. Equivocating the trumpets and vials is a bit ridiculous since a third part of the sea struck then all the water being turned to blood immediately doesn't give you a sound exposition based on the context.

 

[BABerean2]

I'm not ignoring anything, the kingdoms of earth becoming the kingdom of God doesnt include the return of Christ. The bringing forth a child is reminiscent if the birth of Christ, but there is an obvious overlap here and a clear timeline.

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."


Rev 16:15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

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[ghtan]

It clearly describes the women being pursued for 3 1/2 years. Unless there are multiple raptures the entire church is translated at the end of the tribulation.

I'm still confused by your posts. Please say exactly where in Rev you see the end of the tribulation where you think the Rapture occurs?

 

[mark kennedy]

I'm still confused by your posts. Please say exactly where in Rev you see the end of the tribulation where you think the Rapture occurs?

I'm not entirely sure but the Bride of Christ is with Jesus in heaven in chapter 19. Revelations 20:4-6 describes the resurrection in no uncertain terms, I have always taken this to be the time of the resurrection (rapture) of the church at the end of the tribulation. Don't get me wrong, I have never totally dismissed a pre or mid tribulation rapture, just never really found anything definitive to base it on.

I encountered a prewrath scenario, pretty much at random, that argument was that the resurrection happens just prior to the pouring out of the vials of wrath. I can't say I was totally convinced but I thought the scenario had merit and I joined in the thread because I thought that was what the discussion was going to be. I've always favored a post tribulation rapture, based simply on the clear testimony of Scripture.

If you go with a prewrath scenario as I have described it opens up some real issues. For instance, if the resurrection happens just prior to the vials of wrath then why was it not mentioned before the 20th chapter? So if you can hold to a prewrath scenario then why not a midtribulation or even pretribulation because it just means the church has been waiting for at least part of the tribulation in heaven for Jesus to return to earth and conquer his enemies.

I am in no way dogmatic about it but still think a post tribulation rapture fits the bill. In answer to your question (Rev. 20:4-6), I think that's where it happens.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."


Rev 16:15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
Rev 16:16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

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I honestly have no idea what the point of those quotes are.

 

[ghtan]

I'm not entirely sure but the Bride of Christ is with Jesus in heaven in chapter 19. Revelations 20:4-6 describes the resurrection in no uncertain terms, I have always taken this to be the time of the resurrection (rapture) of the church at the end of the tribulation. Don't get me wrong, I have never totally dismissed a pre or mid tribulation rapture, just never really found anything definitive to base it on.

I encountered a prewrath scenario, pretty much at random, that argument was that the resurrection happens just prior to the pouring out of the vials of wrath. I can't say I was totally convinced but I thought the scenario had merit and I joined in the thread because I thought that was what the discussion was going to be. I've always favored a post tribulation rapture, based simply on the clear testimony of Scripture.

If you go with a prewrath scenario as I have described it opens up some real issues. For instance, if the resurrection happens just prior to the vials of wrath then why was it not mentioned before the 20th chapter? So if you can hold to a prewrath scenario then why not a midtribulation or even pretribulation because it just means the church has been waiting for at least part of the tribulation in heaven for Jesus to return to earth and conquer his enemies.

I am in no way dogmatic about it but still think a post tribulation rapture fits the bill. In answer to your question (Rev. 20:4-6), I think that's where it happens.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Thanks. You more more post-trib than prewrath then. That explains why your answers are not typical of prewrath. I hope you find what you are looking for. If you need any help with understanding mid-trib, let me know. Cheers!

 

[mark kennedy]

Thanks. You more more post-trib than prewrath then. That explains why your answers are not typical of prewrath. I hope you find what you are looking for. If you need any help with understanding mid-trib, let me know. Cheers!

Well thank you so much, that's very kind of you. I'm sure I would enjoy discussing the mid-tribulation rapture sometime.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[BABerean2]

I honestly have no idea what the point of those quotes are.

That is because you normally ignore them to make your doctrine work.
Try reading the words after you take off your dispensational glasses.

What does the text of those verses say?

What verse contains "the time of the judgment of the dead"?
Read what Christ said about the judgment of the dead in John 5:27-30.

What verses contain Christ coming as a thief at Armageddon?

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[mark kennedy]

That is because you normally ignore them to make your doctrine work.
Try reading the words after you take off your dispensational glasses.

What does the text of those verses say?

What verse contains "the time of the judgment of the dead"?
Read what Christ said about the judgment of the dead in John 5:27-30.

What verses contain Christ coming as a thief at Armageddon?

.

Ok, now I don't even know who your talking to, I've never been dispensationalist. I've never had any use for dispensationalism or covenant theology. I do know how to do a straight forward exposition and would spend a lot more time if the posters in here could. You've taken a verse out of it's natural context and appear to have completely abandoned the concept of historical narrative, which invariably, has definitive reference to the landmarks of the chronology of events. Even predictive prophecy has it's chronology, what you are doing is allegorizing a test that makes specific mention of a time frame. Once you abandoned that and the context, you could selectively quote out of context, making the verse say anything you like. That's not how a sound exposition works.

 

[BABerean2]

You've taken a verse out of it's natural context and appear to have completely abandoned the concept of historical narrative, which invariably, has definitive reference to the landmarks of the chronology of events.

The 7th trumpet is the last trumpet found in the Bible, unless you can show us an 8th trumpet.
When is the time of the judgment of the dead, based on verse 18?

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
Rev 11:16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
Rev 11:17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

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