So He Lied?
Or perhaps was simply mistaken then?
Was Jesus Issuing Empty threats He Had no intention of fulfilling?
Why was He telling those people His Thiefs Coming was going to befall them if He knew it wasn't true?
What are we to think of His character if such a Promise was not fulfilled and Jesus was simply issuing empty threats and lies?
He exhorts the believers in Thyatira to do the same. “Hold fast what you have until I come.” (Rv 2:25)
Like I've said, I'm not sure a discussion about the past coming of Christ belongs in this forum, so I'll just say that the elephant in the room that traditional Christianity has missed since the age of the church fathers is that the New Testament, like the Old, was written in the Jewish age. Christ promised to come in judgment at the end of the age - the Jewish age, the generation of the apostles - and as we know from history (including Revelation), judgment fell on Jerusalem at the end of the age.
They didn't see Jesus leave upward into the sky; they saw him leave in a cloud of heaven (read verse 9).But will there be another coming future to us today, a bodily return of Christ? What do preterists say about verse like Acts 1:11
Acts 1:11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "Why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven."
Lots of Preterist resources online you can read on that topic...But will there be another coming future to us today, a bodily return of Christ? What do preterists say about verse like Acts 1:11
Acts 1:11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "Why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven."
I have heard that term used in reference to a type of "glory cloud" and a hebrew idiom perhaps.Does the word above come from the Bible?
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Shekhinah - Wikipediayou'll never find the word in your bible as it is not there.
The Shekinah is a Hebrew word (in the sense you are defining it, it is in the female form (grammatically speaking).
It refers usually but not always to the visible manifest presence of God. In some instances, the word takes on similar aspects to our use of the Holy Spirit (but not always).
The word itself is from the root word 'shechan' which means to dwell.
Many are confused because when the bible uses the phrase like 'the glory of the Lord', the word here is usually just 'kavod' which means 'glory' and little other detail is given to it. It is only when you start to look at the word from a traditional Jewish perspective that meat is added to the bones so to speak
however, I will not bore you with my messianic ideas I'll just give a couple of quotes from some of their writings...
When the angels had brought forth Lot and his family and set them without the city, he bade them run for their lives, and not look behind, lest they behold the Shekinah, which had descended to work the destruction of the cities. (legends of the Jews)
When God commanded Israel to set out from Sinai and continue their march, the Israelites were glad, for during their stay in that place they had throughout eleven days received new laws daily, and they hoped that after having departed from the holy mountain they would receive no further laws. Hence, instead of making a day's march from Sinai, as God had commanded them, they marched incessantly for three days, in order to be as far as possible from the holy spot. They behaved like a boy who runs quickly away after dismissal from school, that his teacher might not call him back. Although this antipathy to His laws vexed God, He did not therefore forsake them, but let the Ark move before them as long as they desired to continue the march. For it was by this token that the Israelites knew that the Shekinah was among them, as God had promised them. As often as they broke camp or pitched camp Moses would say to them: "Do what the Shekinah within the Ark bids you do." But they would not believe Moses that the Shekinah dwelt among them unless he spoke the words: "Rise up, Lord, and let Thine enemies be scattered; and let them that hate Thee flee before Thee," whereupon the Ark would begin to move, and they were convinced of the presence of the Shekinah. The Ark furthermore gave the signal for breaking camp by soaring up high, and then swiftly moving before the camp at a distance of three days' march, until it found a suitable spot upon which Israel might encamp. (legends of the Jews - the ungrateful multitude).
in the Targums, the Aramaic translation of the OT, the phrase 'the word of the Lord' (in the sense of 'the word of the Lord came to him), often uses 'shekhinah instead of word of the Lord. Welcome to the world of circumlocutions.
The Talmud records that the temple was destroyed due to bloodshed in the land resulting in the withdrawal of the shekhinah and hence its destruction (Shabbat 31b).
okay I am bored of finding quotes now... let's just say that the word exists over 180 times in the talmud in many different contexts and settings.
Why not take the time to study some Jewish writings and find out how the sages of Israel defined the Shekhinah.
p.s. for anyone who does like to read quotes from ancient Jewish writings I am happy to add more (or maybe just the references so you can look them up).
This term does not occur in the Bible, and is from rabbinic literature.
My apologies.No the threatening was serious, but he told them to rouse themselves and repent, his coming as a thief was conditional on the case being that they did not do this. If Sardis didn't repent then indeed Christ's coming was to them like a thief.
Christ's coming is like that of a thief only to those who are spiritually asleep.
Matthew 24:42-44
Revelation 3:2-3
dms1972 said: ↑
What do preterists say about verse like Acts 1:11
Acts 1:11 "Men of Galilee," they said, "Why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven."
Would you say they are are no on 12 thrones judging Israel?Fulfilled in Acts 9:3-4 and Acts 7:54-60
Would you say they are are no on 12 thrones judging Israel?
Mat 19:28
So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory,
you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones,
judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 22:30
“that ye may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom,
and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Are the 2 witnesses ascending in Revelation 11 fulfilled?
REVE 20:5-6 "THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION"
Revelation 11:12
And they hear a great voice out of the heaven saying to them, “ascend<305> ye here!”
And they ascended<305> into the heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.
Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and
judgment was committed to them.
My "form of doctrine".....LOL. What is your form of doctrine?It is the judgment of the dead that is a problem for some forms of Preterism.
How do you make the following fit your form of the doctrine?
BABerean2 said: ↑
It is the judgment of the dead that is a problem for some forms of Preterism.
How do you make the following fit your form of the doctrine?
As soon as you respond to my above post concerning Luke and Revelation, I will continue with some more Luke and Revelation scriptures [of which you keep quoting]....My "form of doctrine".....LOL. What is your form of doctrine?
If Revelation is the fulfillment of Luke's 1st century Temple/Discourses, then yes it happened in 70ad/1st century.
If Revelation is not that fulfillment, then of course the Jews will have to wait till they build a future Temple and Sanctuary, then it will come. In either case, that is their worry, not mine,
so perhaps you should ask for their view of Luke and Revelation......
Do you believe any of Luke's Jerusalem/Temple discourses are fulfilled and or showing in Revelation?
Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10
Luke 21:24
“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
Is this 1st century/70ad or still yet future for the Jews [looks like they will need their swords].....
Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints
24 And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”
In YOUR view/doctrine, is this 70ad/1st century or still future for the Jews and their City/Temple?
Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833> without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
and the holy City they shall be treading<3961> forty two months.
So your making a 2000 yr gap in the Jerusalem/Temple discourse?!?!?!I thought you already knew what I thought about Luke 21, since I have posted it and you have re-posted it?
past events
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles,...
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. ..............................................
(Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. Also see Galatians 1:14-18. )
future events
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for
your redemption draweth nigh.
.
I am going to include the verse in Luke that you conveniently left out,It is the judgment of the dead that is a problem for some forms of Preterism.
How do you make the following fit your form of the doctrine?
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here..
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
In Irenaus's writing, we should only be concerned with Matthew 24:21 because he appears to be quoting from that passage.
Mat_24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
In context,
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
______________________________________________
So go to Daniel 12:11-12 to see the timeframes and Daniel 12:4-7
to know that it is at the time of the end when "...many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
You are trying to change "great tribulation" into the "great tribulation period of 7 years", in order to make your doctrine work.
Mat 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
.
So your making a 2000 yr gap in the Jerusalem/Temple discourse?!?!?!
That is just as bad and no different than the Dispensationalist' view of a 2000yr gap in Daniel's 70 weeks!
Or do you believe there is a gap in Daniel's 70th week?
I will have to research more on the war of the Jews from 63ad and 70ad.Based on What Paul said in Galatians 1:14-18, and Acts of the Apostles 28:17-31,.............
When do you think the times of the Gentiles comes to an end?
Vespasian, after proceeding as far as Jericho, returned to Caesarea, in order to make preparation for his grand attempt against Jerusalem. While he was thus employed, he received intelligence of the death of Nero ; whereupon, not knowing what the will of the future emperor might be, he prudently resolved to suspend, for the present, the execution of his design. Thus the Almighty gave the Jews a second respite, which continued nearly two years ; but they repented not of their crimes, neither were they in the least degree reclaimed, but rather proceeded to acts of still greater enormity. The flame of civil dissension again burst out and, With more dreadful fury. In the heart of Jerusalem two factions, contended for the sovereignty, raged a against each other with rancorous and destructive animosity. A division of one of these factions having been excluded from the city (vide page 26,) forcibly entered it during the night. Athirst for blood, and inflamed by revenge, they spared neither age, sex, nor infancy ; and the morning beheld eight thousand five hundred dead bodies lying in the streets of the holy city. They plundered every house , and having found the chief priests Anaius and Jesus, not only slew them, but, insulting their bodies, cast them forth unburied. They slaughtered the common people as unfeelingly as if they had been a herd of the vilest beasts. The nobles they first imprisoned, then scourged, and when they could not by these means attach them to their party, they bestowed death upon them as a favour. Of the higher classes twelve thousand perished in this manner ; nor did any one dare to shed a tear, or utter a groan, openly, through fear of a similar fate. Death, indeed, was the penalty of the lightest and heaviest accusations , nor did any escape through the meanness of their birth, or their poverty. Such as fled were intercepted and slain : their carcasses lay in heaps on all the public roads : every symptom of pity seemed utterly extinguished, and with it, all respect for authority, both human and divine.
I did a google search on 42 months Jerusalem 70 ad and this site came up..While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children. Simon, son of Gioras, the commander of one of these bands, at the head of forty thousand banditti, having with some difficulty entered Jerusalem, gave birth to a third faction, and the flame of civil discord blazed out again, with still more destructive fury. The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness.........
I will have to research more on the war of the Jews from 63ad and 70ad.
I can offer an opinion tho based on Josephus' account of what was happening to the cities of Israel and Judah between 63 ad and 70ad.
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