Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[TribulationSigns]

And all happened to that generation. I’m not sure what you think you are accomplishing by posting the same verses over and over.

Not the 70AD generation. It is the generation or spiritual family of evil that will end when Christ returns, after all prophecies concerning the end time will be fulfilled, per Scripture as Truth7t7 shows despite his interpretation for "generation" isn't correct.

There are only TWO generations on Earth:

1.) The chosen generation (All Elects)
2.) The generation of evil (All professed believers, false prophets and christs, but are not chosen, plus all the unsaved)

So which generation did Christ actually say that will end when "all things are fulfilled?" And no, it is not a physical generation, neither in the 1st century or the "future" 1948/1967 generation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

As for 2 Thessalonians 2, I’m not dogmatic about Paul’s use “naos”. I admit it’s totally possible he could be talking about the body of Christ.

Good.

but your deflection doesn’t address the use of “hieron” in Matthew 24:1. Hieron is NEVER used of the body of Christ in the gospels nor epistles. That’s how we know Christ is talking about the temple complex “hieron” , and not the body of Christ “naos”.

Hieron and Naos is talking about the same thing: Temple. Don't forget that Christ "IS" the temple. The body of His people, Both saved and unsaved believers within the Holy City. Read Revelation 11:1-2 for yourself.

 

[Hammster]

You, too, got the generation wrong because you did not compare it with the rest of the Scripture. For example:

Mat 23:34-36
(34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
(35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
(36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

The verses preceding these three gives the context and QUALIFIES these passages that we understand Christ is referring to them as the OFFSPRING or CHILDREN of Satan. In other words, they are the same FAMILY, the GENERATION of evil. They aren't any different, despite their (and yours) protests to the contrary. Sound familiar?
Mat 23:29-33
(29) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
(30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
(31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
(32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
(33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

These are the verses that lead up to those I quoted. They illustrate that though these people believe that they are children of God, yet Christ said they are actually of the very same family of Satan that killed the Prophets. Christ is here talking to the unfaithful congregation of His day, declaring them the GENERATION (family) of evil that kills God's prophets. In other words, Satan was their father, and his deeds are what they do, as contrasted with the offspring or children of God. And as the Generation or family of evil, they are the exact same generation that killed Abel and the prophets of old. They are thus measured the same as that generation, because they are that generation that killed/kills God's prophets. They are the fruit of children of their father. Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Therefore, it was THIS Generation, the fruit, offspring or spiritual family of Satan, who killed them. Who's responsible for the blood of the prophets? Satan, and ALL those ruled over by him. And the end-time Church is that SAME GENERATION or FAMILY of Satan, and thus the same family that killed Abel, Jesus, Stephen, and maybe our uncle. Again, see the context of the verse:

Mat 23:30-32
(30) And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
(31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
(32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

Those people were not literally alive when their family in the past actually killed the prophets, but God makes it perfectly clear that though they (like many today) protest that they are the Good God-fearing congregation, but in reality they are actually the children of Satan. Why? Because they are the same spiritual offspring of those who killed the prophets, and are measured the same as those who killed them. Who killed them? The whole generation of Evil, the same generation they are part of. Selah.

Matthew 23:35-36

• " That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
• Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."

What Generation? Certainly not the so-called 40 years generation of Matthew, Mark Luke and John of that Physical/literal Generation. Blah, blah blah...but the Generation of evil that span from Cain to Jesus time, and to our times, of which these in unbelief were. They were of that same kindred that killed the prophets, and thus will be judged the same for killing the prophets. That word translated generation is [genea] from the root [genos] meaning kindred or family. It's used to designate nations, because they are of one family or common ancestry. So Christ is saying that this generation of evil will not end until all prophecies, including the end-time , when Christ returns, are fulfilled first. Then all the wicked people of that family or generation of evil will finally end and end up being thrown into Lake of Fire.

So, Hammster, not only that some people are wrong to apply the generation to some "future generation" that has to do with 1948/1967 Israel, but you are also wrong to apply the generation to the first century. Christ is talking about the ongoing whole generation or family of evil that included the Pharisees, Scribes, and all unbelieving Jews who are merely part of! It did not stop in 70AD. It continued until our days... until Christ returns. Selah!

That’s completely wrong. A lot of text, though.

 

[Hammster]

Not the 70AD generation. It is the generation or spiritual family of evil that will end when Christ returns, after all prophecies concerning the end time will be fulfilled, per Scripture as Truth7t7 shows despite his interpretation for "generation" isn't correct.

There are only TWO generations on Earth:

1.) The chosen generation (All Elects)
2.) The generation of evil (All professed believers, false prophets and christs, but are not chosen, plus all the unsaved)

So which generation did Christ actually say that will end when "all things are fulfilled?" And no, it is not a physical generation, neither in the 1st century or the "future" 1948/1967 generation.

Nope. That’s eisegesis.

 

[Truth7t7]

Christ is talking about the ongoing whole generation or family of evil that included the Pharisees, Scribes, and all unbelieving Jews who are merely part of! It did not stop in 70AD. It continued until our days... until Christ returns. Selah!

I Disagree, Matthew chapter 24 is speaking of a future generation that will physically witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus in the heavens

Your claim his words encompass generations of evil families would be false as per my observation of scripture

Matthew Chapter 24:4-51 is speaking of future generation and future events unfulfilled

 

[3 Resurrections]

Many would consider the words above to be borderline heretical

Then it should be simple enough to list a slew of verses that prove my statement incorrect, yes?
___________________________?
____________________________?
____________________________?

Remember, even though many were resurrected to immortal life before Christ was, I have made the point that Christ was most definitely the "FIRST-begotten from the dead". But no one seems to be able to get the correct sense of the word "begotten" in this verse, as God meant it in Psalms 2:7. "This day have I begotten thee" was interpreted by Paul in Acts 13:33-34 as the day Christ was resurrected. That resurrection day was when Christ ascended to the Father in that glorified, resurrected form and was given a kingdom and dominion and all power in heaven and in earth.

 

[claninja]

Good.



Hieron and Naos is talking about the same thing: Temple. Don't forget that Christ "IS" the temple. The body of His people, Both saved and unsaved believers within the Holy City. Read Revelation 11:1-2 for yourself.

No, hieron and Naos do NOT talk about the same thing.

The hieron refers to the complex as a whole or its outer courts. It’s never used as to refer spiritually to the church. That’s how we know, Matthew 24’s temple destruction is not about the church but about the literal temple complex, and history confirms it was literally destroyed within Jesus’ generation.

Original Word: ἱερόν, οῦ, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: hieron
Phonetic Spelling: (hee-er-on')
Definition: temple
Usage: a temple, either the whole building, or specifically the outer courts, open to worshippers.

HELPS Word-studies
2411 hierón (from 2413 /hierós, "sacred") – the entire Temple complex, i.e. all its enclosures (precincts, courtyards) and the central sanctuary.

Naos refers only to the sanctuary where God resides, and is often used to refer to the church spiritually throughout the epistles. Jesus never said not one stone would remain upon another in regards to the body of Christ.

naos: a temple
Original Word: ναός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: naos
Phonetic Spelling: (nah-os')
Definition: a temple
Usage: a temple, a shrine, that part of the temple where God himself resides.

HELPS Word-studies
3485 naós (from naiō, "to dwell") – properly, a sanctuary (divine dwelling-place); a temple (sacred abode), the place of divine manifestation. 3485 (naós) refers to the sanctuary (the Jewish Temple proper), i.e. with just its two inner compartments (rooms).

As to Revelation 11:1-2, the passage makes a very clear distinction between the naos and hieron. The Naos is measured, but it’s outer courts, which would be a part of the hieron and NOT the naos, were excluded and thus given over to the nations to be trampled

Revelation 11:1-2 1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, “Go and measure the temple (naos) of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. 2But exclude the courtyard outside the temple (naos) . Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

 

[claninja]

I Disagree With Your Interpretation

Of course Jesus was looking at a literal temple in Jerusalem and as he spoke with the pharisees in John he stated destroy this temple, as the parishes were stating a literal temple of stone that took 46 years to build

Yes the mystery is revealed to the reader, it wasn't a temple of stone to be destroyed, but the Lord's body, it's that simple

John 2:20 Temple, "Naos"

We Disagree, Jesus Is My Lord

John 2:20KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Mark 14:58 explicitly reveals the mystery, as it was a temple made with hands that was talked about, simple and clear

Mark 14:58 Temple, "Naos"

Mark 14:58KJV
58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

You left out mark 14:57 which demonstrates mark knew vs 58 was a false testimony.

Christ never said the man made temple building would be destroyed and then within 3 days he would build another temple made without hands.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Nope. That’s eisegesis.

Yes, that is comparing Scripture with Scripture and you know what verses I am talking about. Learn to find these in Scripture yourself. Your doctrine remained refuted.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, hieron and Naos do NOT talk about the same thing.

Yes, it does. One is a true diving-dwelling place or worshippers therein representing the temple. Another is a temple that points to the true.

As to Revelation 11:1-2, the passage makes a very clear distinction between the naos and hieron. The Naos is measured, but it’s outer courts, which would be a part of the hieron and NOT the naos, were excluded and thus given over to the nations to be trampled

Revelation 11:1-2 1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, “Go and measure the temple (naos) of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there. 2But exclude the courtyard outside the temple (naos) . Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

You read Revelation 11:1-2 but do you really understand what Christ talked about here? For example, can you answer biblically WITH Scripture for each question below:

1.) What does the measuring rod represent?
2.) Why does God want John to measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein?
2.) Where is this Holy Temple of God?
3.) Who is to measure?
4.) What is to be measured?
5.) Why did the messenger stand and tell John to rise?
6.) What is the court without the temple signify?
7.) Who are those in the court without the temple?
8.) Why does God not measure those people in the court?
9.) Who are the Gentiles (nations) that God allowed them to come into the court as judgment?
10.) What do the 42 months refer to?

Eager to hear your "biblical" answers, meaning, comparing Scirpture with Scirpture on measuring rods, temple, gentiles, etc.

 

[TribulationSigns]

That’s completely wrong. A lot of text, though.

Says who? You offered no biblical refutation with Scripture whatsoever, just an opinionated one-liner, as usual.
A lot of text? If you can read a bible chapter or two a night, and my post comes with tons of Scripture, then no sympathy here. The real question is whether you actually read, receive it, or offer refutation with Scripture if disagree. The Lord judges and I am comfortable with that, Hammster!

 

[Hammster]

Yes, that is comparing Scripture with Scripture and you know what verses I am talking about. Learn to find these in Scripture yourself. Your doctrine remained refuted.

Comparing scripture with scripture is all well and good until read your presupposition into it. That’s what you’ve done.

 

[Hammster]

Says who? You offered no biblical refutation with Scripture whatsoever, just an opinionated one-liner, as usual.
A lot of text? If you can read a bible chapter or two a night, and my post comes with tons of Scripture, then no sympathy here. The real question is whether you actually read, receive it, or offer refutation with Scripture if disagree. The Lord judges and I am comfortable with that, Hammster!

I’ll be clearer. It’s a lot of disjointed text.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I’ll be clearer. It’s a lot of disjointed text.

Just saying this because you won't receive the love of the truth? AND we can see that you have not yet refuted my position with Scripture. Only complained about the text being long, and disjointed, falsely claimed it as eisegesis, etc. That is not an honorable disagreement, that is a denial of the Word of God I testified which means someone is not dealing honestly and not abiding in His Truth.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Comparing scripture with scripture is all well and good until read your presupposition into it. That’s what you’ve done.

Prove it.

 

[Hammster]

Just saying this because you won't receive the love of the truth? AND we can see that you have not yet refuted my position with Scripture. Only complained about the text being long, and disjointed, falsely claimed it as eisegesis, etc. That is not an honorable disagreement, that is a denial of the Word of God I testified which means someone is not dealing honestly and not abiding in His Truth.

Fine

“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
— Matthew 23:34-36

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children,
— Matthew 11:16

The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
— Matthew 12:41

The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.
— Matthew 12:42

Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.”
— Matthew 12:45

Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, “Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.”
— Mark 8:12

Etc.

Every instance He is talking about the generation that He is talking to.

 

[Hammster]

M

Prove it.

My whole argument proves it.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Fine

Good about time.

“Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
— Matthew 23:34-36

And? Your explanation for this verse is? I already explained mine.

Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
— Matthew 24:34

And? Your explanation for this verse is? I already explained mine.

“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children,
— Matthew 11:16

And? Your explanation for this verse is? I already explained mine.

The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
— Matthew 12:41

And what generation is this exactly? Explain yourself.

The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.
— Matthew 12:42

What generation is this? Explain yourself.

Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first. That is the way it will also be with this evil generation.”
— Matthew 12:45

What evil generation is this exactly? Explain yourself.

Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, “Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.”
— Mark 8:12

What generation that seeks for the sign? What is this generation that WON'T receive the sign? Explain yourself.

Etc.

All you did is quote verses but not explain what generation did Christ talked about.

Every instance He is talking about the generation that He is talking to.

What generation, exactly?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, “Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation.”
— Mark 8:12

Hammster, look at one verse you quoted and allow me to give you some advice. Whatevere you do, never built a doctrine upon a verse out of context or without comparing it with the rest of Scripture. I will show you why. We can see that you have NOT compared Mark 8:12 with Luke:

Luk 11:29-30
(29) And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
(30) For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

Since you have failed to explain the verse you quoted, so I will explain for all readers to get an idea of how we are to understand what Christ really talked about. Ready?

By a sound, consistent, harmonious, logical reading of the text, in context, and in full agreement with all that He said. That He was a sign to that family or generation of vipers. A sign that He is the prophesied Messiah and that the Kingdom had come. Let me ask you a question. How do you explain Christ saying in one verse to one contemporary generation that there will be no sign given, and yet in the very next verse say He was a sign to a generation? Contradiction? Not at all.

Luke 11:29-30

• "And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
• For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation."

No sign given but ([ei me], if not or saving) the sign of His death and resurrection. So a sign was given, but that generation that was blinded could not see it, while the disciples and election would see the sign that was given. One holy and chosen generation receiving the Word of the Spirit who gives it, and the other generation, an evil generation, rejecting it by the spirit of disobedience. Christ says of the sign, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation. But to WHAT Generation? The Generation that seeks signs when no sign shall be given? No, the generation who have eyes to see the sign of Jonas as a type of Christ unto the Ninevites. The death and resurrection of Christ is indeed a sign to His holy generation (1st Peter 2:9), His family, and the chosen children of His Father. An evil and adulterous "family" seeks after signs to support their religion, and they aren't given signs. Yet Christ says there is indeed a sign given, which is His resurrection (as the Holy Temple) after its destruction. Contradiction? No, not at all--because the evil family or generation are the children of the Devil and they don't see the sign because God has not given them eyes to see. And, like I said before, yet another contemporary and everlasting generation or family does see the sign, as they are the children of God. Again, a portrait of two families or [genea], but only one generation that recognizes the sign of the resurrection of the Temple in Christ. The destruction and rebuilding is NOT found in Jewish fables of the 70AD temple or the future rebuilding of physical structures in the middle east, and placement of worldly or political kings, but in spiritual cities, Kingdoms, and Rulers. Selah!
So what seems obvious to one is not always apparent to others, and quite often easily refutable--like the idea of a pretribulation rapture, a reestablished kingdom of middle eastern Israel, the fall of physical temple in 70AD, the postmillennialism's Christianization of the world or the nation of middle eastern Jews bearing fruit again. It may seem obvious in theory, but Scripture is a lot more complicated in practice, especially when one is determined to read into it rather than from it. For example, it seemed "quite obvious" to the Jews that Christ spoke to and said, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up," that He was referring to the literal Temple. After all, He had just thrown the buyers and sellers out of it and they were asking Him for a sign that he had the "authority" to do this. It's in that context that He said "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Which is why they "responded" saying that this Temple took forty six years to build, and how would Christ build it again in just 3 days? Clearly, the seemingly obvious to them that Christ was speaking about that very literal/physical Temple, was not what Christ was actually speaking about at all. so look beyond what "seems" obvious, or what "appears" right in your own eyes, to what Christ is actually saying. Look to what is actually being addressed, what is correct, consistent, sound, Spiritual and in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

Psalms 12:7

• "Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever."

What single group or contemporary people to what time or generation of man are we preserved from forever? None! Only the generation of the wicked, and "NOT" a one-off contemporary evil group of people at one time. The generation of the wicked that started with Cain and will exist right up until the end, when all things will have been fulfilled. We (the election, or family of faithful Christians) are all preserved from this evil generation forever. It is clear that the word generation did not mean all of those people were a 40 year span generation of evil in the first century (seriously?!), nor did Christ use the word that way! Likewise, the people over 2000 years ago in Israel were not all a generation that would not be given a sign, nor were all a generation that the blood of abel and the prophets that followed would be required of. Only the generation or family of evil would be given no sign. They are the only generation Christ that Christ prophesied could not escape the damnation of Hell. It didn't mean your group living in a 40 year span after the Cross, it meant that family who are children of the Devil from Cain to last unsaved man on Earth!

So there! Now it is your turn to defend your position on what the verses in Mark, Luke, or even Psalams above are talking about. And please spare us a one-liner or non-scriptural argument.

 

[3 Resurrections]

What generation, exactly?

"This generation" was the adults and the children alive at the time of Christ's ministry, and whom He warned while on the road to His crucifixion. "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and your children. For behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave such. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?"