• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,846
4,331
-
✟724,827.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I mean, how can Jesus’ spirit (pneuma) go to heaven prior to the resurrection, if he had not yet ascended to the father (John 20:17) and was in hades until the resurrection of his flesh (acts 2:31)?
I mentioned one interpretation, which is that in Joh 20:17 the Lord meant that his resurrection body had not ascended to the Father. The other interpretation is that Christ's spirit was in Paradise, which is in the 3rd heaven. God's throne, according to Jewish tradition is in the 7th heaven. In this sense, Christ's spirit did not ascend to the Father.


I take Jesus being “made alive in or by the pneuma” to be in regards to his resurrection in 1 peter 3:18.

1 peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. in whichc he went and proclaimedd to the spirits in prison,
Are you saying that Christ went to the spirit prison/Hades after his resurrection?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,846
4,331
-
✟724,827.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I'm not sure where you have found that the outer veil was called "to kalymma",

the soldiers and the centurion saw the first, outer veil (to katapetasma) of the temple being ripped apart at Christ's crucifixion - NOT the veil (to katapetasma) in front of the Holy of Holies which they would not have been able to view from their vantage point at the crucifixion site.
I see your point, but this is a serious departure from all interpreters. We know from Heb 9:3 that the wilderness tabernacle had 2 veils. But "the katapetasma" referred to in the Gospels is the parokhet between the heikhal and the devir.

Did Herod's temple have an outer veil? Josephus said it had a brass door with iron bars, didn't he? You're an expert on Josephus.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

3 Resurrections

That's 666 YEARS, folks
Aug 21, 2021
1,929
307
Taylors
✟100,883.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Your link is helpful, Andrewn, but, unfortunately for your position, it also agrees with my point that BOTH the first AND the second temple veils were given the same "to katapetasma" name. It does not even bring up the "to kalymma" term that I can see.

You have not addressed where you have seen the "to kalymma" name given to the first, outer veil. Your comment above said these two temple veils were given different titles to distinguish them from one another, and your own link does not agree with that. Do you have another source you are referring to which DOES distinguish them with these two different names? That would make Strong's incorrect when it says there are only 4 times when the "to kalymma" term spoke of a veil, and in none of these 4 verses does it refer at all to a temple veil.

If it actually WAS the "second veil" in front of the Holy of holies that was torn from top to bottom, the symbolism behind this action would be that WE AS BELIEVERS ALL BECAME HIGH PRIESTS at that point (which is an impossibility, since only the HIGH priest had ever been allowed to enter that Holy of holies space). There is only ONE "Great High Priest", which Christ became at His resurrection-day ascension. The symbolism of the FIRST outer veil being torn at Christ's crucifixion is definitely the more likely one: that believers all became PRIESTS with access to the altar of incense (symbolizing our prayers to God), and to the table of shewbread which only the priests had been allowed to share, and to the candlestick giving light to all the priests entering this holy place.

I am far from an expert on Josephus, but since he wrote so much about the temple structure in his days, I'll check to see if he brought up anything at all about the presence of a first, outer veil in Herod's renovated temple. Perhaps there was the massive set of doors in addition to a first veil directly behind it?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,846
4,331
-
✟724,827.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
It does not even bring up the "to kalymma" term that I can see. You have not addressed where you have seen the "to kalymma" name given to the first, outer veil.

The article includes the following: "one of them (Hebrew מָסָך) at the entrance of the temple separated the Holy place from the outer court (Exodus 26:37; Exodus 38:18; Numbers 3:26; Josephus, b. j. 5, 5, 4; it is called also τό κάλυμμα by the Sept. and Philo, Exodus 27:16; Numbers 3:25; Philo, vit. Moys. 3: §§ 5 and 9),"

I highlighted and underlined "to kalymma". :)

The article goes on to say, "the other veiled the Holy of holies from the Holy place (in Hebrew the פָּרֹכֶת; ἐνδοτερον καταπέτασμα, Josephus, Antiquities 8, 3, 3; τό ἐσωτατον καταπέτασμα Philo de gig. § 12; by the Sept. and Philo this is called pre-eminently τό καταπέτασμα, Exodus 26:31ff; Leviticus 21:23; Leviticus 24:3; Philo, vit. Moys. as above). This latter καταπέτασμα is the only one mentioned in the N. T."
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,725
2,194
indiana
✟334,397.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
mentioned one interpretation, which is that in Joh 20:17 the Lord meant that his resurrection body had not ascended to the Father. The other interpretation is that Christ's spirit was in Paradise, which is in the 3rd heaven. God's throne, according to Jewish tradition is in the 7th heaven. In this sense, Christ's spirit did not ascend to the Father.
According to Peter, Jesus’ soul was in hades until the resurrection of his flesh (acts 2:31), so I would disagree he “spiritually ascended to heaven prior to the resurrection. And this is consistent with Christ claiming he had not yet ascended to the father in John 20:17 post the resurrection.


Are you saying that Christ went to the spirit prison/Hades after his resurrection?

No. I don’t believe this passage refers to Christ going to hades. Please see Adam Clarke’s commentary for my position in this vague and difficult passage.

“By which - Spirit, his own Divine energy and authority. He went and preached - By the ministry of Noah, one hundred and twenty years.

Unto the spirits in prison - The inhabitants of the antediluvian world, who, having been disobedient, and convicted of the most flagrant transgressions against God, were sentenced by his just law to destruction. But their punishment was delayed to see if they would repent; and the long-suffering of God waited one hundred and twenty years, which were granted to them for this purpose; during which time, as criminals tried and convicted, they are represented as being in prison - detained under the arrest of Divine justice, which waited either for their repentance or the expiration of the respite, that the punishment pronounced might be inflicted. This I have long believed to be the sense of this difficult passage, and no other that I have seen is so consistent with the whole scope of the place. That the Spirit of God did strive with, convict, and reprove the antediluvians, is evident from Genesis 6:3: My Spirit shall not always strive with man, forasmuch as he is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years. And it was by this Spirit that Noah became a preacher of righteousness, and condemned that ungodly world, Hebrews 11:7, who would not believe till wrath - Divine punishment, came upon them to the uttermost. The word πνευμασι, spirits, is supposed to render this view of the subject improbable, because this must mean disembodied spirits; but this certainly does not follow, for the spirits of just men made perfect, Hebrews 12:23, certainly means righteous men, and men still in the Church militant; and the Father of spirits, Hebrews 12:9, means men still in the body; and the God of the spirits of all flesh, Numbers 16:22; Numbers 27:16, means men not in a disembodied state.

But even on this word there are several various readings; some of the Greek MSS. read πνευματι, in spirit, and one Πνευματι Ἁγιῳ, in the Holy Spirit. I have before me one of the first, if not the very first edition of the Latin Bible; and in it the verse stands thus: In quo et hiis, qui in carcere erant, Spiritualiter veniens praedicavit; "by which he came spiritually, and preached to them that were in prison."

In two very ancient MSS. of the Vulgate before me, the clause is thus: In quo et his qui in carcere erant Spiritu venient praedicavit; "in which, coming by the Spirit, he preached to those who were in prison." This is the reading also in the Complutensian Polyglot.

Another ancient MS. in my possession has the words nearly as in the printed copy: In quo et hiis qui in carcere Conclusi erant Spiritualiter veniens praedicavit; "in which, coming spiritually, he preached to those who were Shut Up in prison."

Another MS., written about a.d. 1370, is the same as the printed copy.

The common printed Vulgate is different from all these, and from all the MSS. of the Vulgate which I have seen in reading spiritibus, "to the spirits."

In my old MS. Bible, which contains the first translation into English ever made, the clause is the following: In whiche thing and to hem that weren closid togyder in prison, hi commynge in Spirit, prechide. The copy from which this translation was taken evidently read conclusi erdnt, with one of the MSS. quoted above, as closid togyder proves.

I have quoted all these authorities from the most authentic and correct copies of the Vulgate, to show that from them there is no ground to believe that the text speaks of Christ's going to hell to preach the Gospel to the damned, or of his going to some feigned place where the souls of the patriarchs were detained, to whom he preached, and whom he delivered from that place and took with him to paradise, which the Romish Church holds as an article of faith.

Though the judicious Calmet holds with his Church this opinion, yet he cannot consider the text of St. Peter as a proof of it. I will set down his own words: Le sentiment qui veut que Jesus Christ soit descendu aux enfers, pour annoncer sa venue aux anciens patriarches, et pour les tirer de cette espece de prison, ou ils Pattendoient si long tems, est indubitable; et nous le regardons comme un article de notre foi: mais on peut douter que ce soit le sens de Saint Pierre en cet endroit. "The opinion which states that Jesus Christ descended into hell, to announce his coming to the ancient patriarchs, and to deliver them from that species of prison, where they had so long waited for him, is incontrovertible; and we (the Catholics) consider it as an article of our faith: but we may doubt whether this be the meaning of St. Peter in this place." Some think the whole passage applies to the preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles; but the interpretation given above appears to me, after the fullest consideration, to be the most consistent and rational, as I have already remarked.”
 
Upvote 0

3 Resurrections

That's 666 YEARS, folks
Aug 21, 2021
1,929
307
Taylors
✟100,883.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
According to Peter, Jesus’ soul was in hades until the resurrection of his flesh (acts 2:31), so I would disagree he “spiritually ascended to heaven prior to the resurrection. And this is consistent with Christ claiming he had not yet ascended to the father in John 20:17 post the resurrection.
Agreed.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the pneuma, 19 in which also he went and made a proclamation to the pneumasin in prison,

The pneumasin of the OT dead were in Hades. Christ's pneuma also went to Hades. I don't see how pneuma could mean "breath" here. It must mean "spirit." But Christ had committed his pneuma in God's hands. Does pneuma here refer to breath / life as you say? Is it a general expression meaning "God, do what you will with my spirit"?
Yes, that is the sense in which I understand Christ saying from the cross, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit". God then sent that spirit of Christ to Hades for 3 days and 3 nights to preach to those "spirits in prison". This difficult 1 Peter 3:18 verse should be understood by comparing it with the same context of the 1 Peter 4:4-6 verses which continues to describe those who were "preached" to. Peter said that BECAUSE the living believers were going to give account to Him that was ready and prepared" to judge the living AND THE DEAD" at that time, "For for THIS CAUSE" (because of the imminent bodily resurrection in those first-century days) "was the gospel preached also to THEM THAT ARE DEAD" (this was the gospel preached to those "spirits in prison" of 1 Peter 3:18 that had still been occupying Hades at Christ's crucifixion death) "That they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand..."

To the best of my understanding at present for this difficult 1 Peter 3:18 passage, Christ's spirit preaching the gospel to those "spirits in prison" that were still occupying Hades at that time resulted in a change to being alive in the spirit, even though their spirits still remained in Hades for the time being. These who had been made to "live in the spirit" then waited for their fleshly bodies (which had been judged back in Noah's day) to participate in the next bodily resurrection event. And as Peter said, that "end of all things" was then presently "at hand" in those days, so they did not have long to wait. Christ knew the next bodily resurrection event was coming soon, so that is why His spirit preached the gospel message to these "spirits in prison" prior to that event.

Does this indicate the possibility of a post-mortem salvation for these individuals? It does. Would that necessarily mean that post-mortem salvation is possible for today as well? There is no way to know that. I'm supposing that this may have been a gospel opportunity available only to the drowned prediluvian world's inhabitants that were in Hades, since they are the ones who were specifically mentioned in 1 Peter 3:20. If the spirit of Christ in mercy chose to offer this post-mortem salvation opportunity to these departed spirits of prediluvian people in Hades, I'd be the last one to say that this was not fair for everybody else. This interpretation of a post-mortem salvation possibility back then is not a hill that I need to die on, however. I'm open to being convinced by scripture otherwise.
 
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
5,007
1,014
America
Visit site
✟325,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think that because it says And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, Hebrews 9:27, there is the opportunity to respond for God to save us, in Christ, in this life before we die, not later.
 
Upvote 0

3 Resurrections

That's 666 YEARS, folks
Aug 21, 2021
1,929
307
Taylors
✟100,883.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I think that because it says And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, Hebrews 9:27, there is the opportunity to respond for God to save us, in Christ, in this life before we die, not later.
That word "after" in Greek simply means something happening subsequent to the first event. "Meta" can be interpreted as happening immediately after something, or even as long as many millennia later on in time. It does not prove that an offer of saving grace has never been extended in between that physical death and a judgment. On the other hand, this Hebrews 9:27 verse doesn't prove that it does, either. We have to look elsewhere for the answer then. The 1 Peter 4:4-6 text seems to indicate that this post-mortem offer of salvation was done by Christ on one occasion at least in the past.

Your answer concerns those in full adult possession of their reasoning faculties who are introduced to the gospel, and does not really address those who died in utero, stillborn, those never having any introduction to the knowledge of the gospel in this life, the mentally deficient, or those simply too young to know their right hand from their left, as God once said to Jonah as a reason for His having mercy on Nineveh. All of these who die without the capability of responding in faith in this life from conception and forward are fallen members of Adam's fallen race. They are also in need of a Savior's mercy to give them eternal life, or they will ultimately perish utterly in a judgment, body and soul.
 
Upvote 0

FredVB

Regular Member
Mar 11, 2010
5,007
1,014
America
Visit site
✟325,031.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That word "after" in Greek simply means something happening subsequent to the first event. "Meta" can be interpreted as happening immediately after something, or even as long as many millennia later on in time. It does not prove that an offer of saving grace has never been extended in between that physical death and a judgment. On the other hand, this Hebrews 9:27 verse doesn't prove that it does, either. We have to look elsewhere for the answer then. The 1 Peter 4:4-6 text seems to indicate that this post-mortem offer of salvation was done by Christ on one occasion at least in the past.

Your answer concerns those in full adult possession of their reasoning faculties who are introduced to the gospel, and does not really address those who died in utero, stillborn, those never having any introduction to the knowledge of the gospel in this life, the mentally deficient, or those simply too young to know their right hand from their left, as God once said to Jonah as a reason for His having mercy on Nineveh. All of these who die without the capability of responding in faith in this life from conception and forward are fallen members of Adam's fallen race. They are also in need of a Savior's mercy to give them eternal life, or they will ultimately perish utterly in a judgment, body and soul.

I don't disagree. Though I don't know how, God gives all enough opportunity. For those who can have that with their choice in this life, it is in this life.
 
Upvote 0

seekingHiswisdom

Active Member
Jun 28, 2023
53
17
78
Pennsylvania
✟20,668.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican


I see your point, but this is a serious departure from all interpreters. We know from Heb 9:3 that the wilderness tabernacle had 2 veils. But "the katapetasma" referred to in the Gospels is the parokhet between the heikhal and the devir.

Did Herod's temple have an outer veil? Josephus said it had a brass door with iron bars, didn't he? You're an expert on Josephus.
Not to interject between a specific discussion ( even at the age of this one) but I have this in my my PC and it may, or possibly not, offer some additional info. Two links that seem to be authoritative but not in total agreement with each other.

While the temple was started in 20BC it was not completed until 63AD. construction on the whole complex continued for more than eighty years from the time it was begun and was only completed in AD 63 (Antiquities 20.219; compare John 2:19). Per Josephus... construction on the whole complex continued for more than eighty years from the time it was begun and was only completed in AD 63 (Antiquities 20.219; compare John 2:19).

A detailed description of the Temple of Herod can be read here... The Temple of Herod | Religious Studies Center
A large veil of several colors hung in front of the doors at the entrance to the Holy Place. Passing through the veil, one entered the Holy Place. The Holy Place and the Holy of Holies together comprised one large rectangular room completely covered with plates of gold separated only by the veil of the temple.

Separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies was another veil. The veil of the temple consisted of two curtains hung about 18 inches apart. The outer curtain was looped up on the south side, and the inner one on the north side provided a corridor for the high priest to walk through on the day that he entered the Holy of Holies so that no one else could see into the Holy of Holies.

The Veil of the Tabernacle​

And the veil was torn in two from top to bottom.
https://imgbb.com/Mark 15:38
There were three beautifully colored curtains in the tabernacle. The first one was at the gate of the entrance into the tabernacle just before the bronze altar; the second was at the door through which one would gain entrance into the Holy Place; and the third was before the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies. These three curtains were placed strategically in the tabernacle, each one made of fine-twined linen into which were twisted threads of purple, blue, and scarlet.

The Veil of Separationhttps://www.christianstudylibrary.org/article/veil-tabernacle#outline-the-veil-of-separation

Although they were beautiful to the eye, the veiled entrances of the tabernacle were not designed to be objects of admiration. The word "veil" in the Hebrew means "to separate." That is what the three veils did. They acted as a barrier between God and man, shutting the man out and shutting God in.
The first curtain was at the gate of the outer court. It was over seven feet high, thirty feet wide and was supported by four pillars set in bronze sockets. This curtain separated the people from the outer court of the tabernacle. They could only enter when they brought their sacrifice to the gate as an offering for God upon the bronze altar.
The second curtain guarded the door to the Holy Place. This veil separated the people in outer court of the tabernacle from the Holy Place. Only priests were permitted to enter into the Holy Place after they had made the proper sacrifice at the altar and washing at the bronze laver.
The third curtain divided the inside of the tabernacle into two rooms: the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies. This veil separated the priests who were permitted to come into the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies in which was the very presence of God. Only the high priest could enter into the Holy of Holies — and he only once a year on the great Day of Atonement. He could only enter if he carried with him blood from the bronze altar to present as an offering to God. That blood was to place on the mercy seat as a substitutionary atonement for his sins and the sins of the people.
Woven into this veil, guarding the entrance to the Holy of Holies, were three huge figures of cherubim. Cherubim were the symbolic defenders of God's power and God's holiness. Like the cherubim who guarded the entryway into the Garden of Eden, these cherubim stood guard over the entrance of the Holy of Holies as if to say: "Thus far and no further!"
Communion in the very presence of God was to be found only in the Holy of Holies. God had told Moses that it was there that He would meet with the people. He would meet with the high priest from above the blood sprinkled mercy seat.
That was the way the people wanted it. When God had spoken to Moses on Mount Sinai, the glorious manifestation of the Godhead, the very glory of God, had so vividly stamped itself upon the face of Moses that when he came down from the mountain his face shone. It was so bright that the Israelites asked him to cover his face with a veil. They basically said, "We want this kind of separation to take place. We do not want to encounter the Most Holy God in all His glory and all His terror." None could bear the presence of what was simply the reflection of God's glory, let alone stand in the very presence of that glory. Moses had to wear a veil to separate the glory of God and the sinfulness of the people. That separation was signified by the veil of Moses, then the veil in the tabernacle, and finally, the veil in the Temple.
In what was known as Herod's temple, there were two veils in front of the Holy of Holies. The Talmud tells us that it was not known whether the veil in Solomon's temple was hung on the inside or the outside of the entrance to the Holy of Holies. When the Temple was rebuilt after the exile, they hung two veils — one on the outside of the entryway in the Holy Place and one on the inside of the entryway in the Holy of Holies. According to the Talmud, the veils were sixty feet long, thirty feet tall and four inches thick. Jewish tradition claims that the veils were so heavy it took three hundred priests to hang them.
Notice how separated the Holy of Holies was from the surrounding encampment of all the children of Israel. Three curtains had to be passed. Each one would add to the sense of the great gulf that existed between God and Man. Each curtain became more exclusive. Any Israelite could enter the outer court as long as he brought his sacrifice. Of all the Israelites, only priests were permitted to enter the Holy Place. Finally, only one priest was permitted beyond the veil that led to the Holy of Holies.
The Holy Spirit was teaching the people, even the other priests, that the way into — the Holiest of all was granted only to one member of all Israel's race — the high priest. Even then, the high priest had to come properly prepared.

The New Testament Veilhttps://www.christianstudylibrary.org/article/veil-tabernacle#outline-the-new-testament-veil

The New Testament tells us of another veil of separation. John 1:14 tell that the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Christ, who is of the very same essence and nature as God, emptied Himself. He took on the limitations of humanity without surrendering any of the attributes of His divinity. Hebrews 10:20 calls the very body of Christ a veil that hid the Deity of Jesus from the eyes of men.
Looking upon Jesus of Nazareth, the people did not see that He was very God of very God. Instead they asked, "Is not this the carpenter's son?" (Mark 6:3). The prophet Isaiah foresaw that the Messiah would be one of us. None of His glory would be visible; it would be hidden in the veil of His flesh (Isaiah 52:14, Isaiah 53:2).
Even though that glory was hidden during His earthly ministry, we can see glimpses of His glory. By divine revelation His disciples were at times able to see beyond the veil of His flesh and behold the fact that Jesus was indeed the Son of the living God. John 1:14 declares that the disciples beheld His glory. Glimpses of that glory were manifested to the disciples through the miracles of Jesus. At the wedding in Cana, for example, Jesus changed the water into wine. John records, "This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples put their faith in him." (John 2:1-11).

The Veil Abolishedhttps://www.christianstudylibrary.org/article/veil-tabernacle#outline-the-veil-abolished

The glory of the Son of god came to its peak at the moment when He died on the cross of Calvary. In Mark 15:37, 38 we read about a very interesting event that took place when Jesus died. The veil was torn in two. Human might could not have been responsible for tearing the veil. Remember, it was seventy feet wide, thirty feet high, and four inches thick! It was torn in two by the very power of the almighty God.
Before the rending of the veil, mankind had no direct access to God's presence. In a very simple, yet incredibly profound act, God tore the barrier away that had separated Him from sinful humanity for more than 1,500 years.
According to Matthew, the tearing of the veil took place at the time of Jesus' death — about the ninth hour. At that time the priests would be busy in the Temple preparing for the evening sacrifice. Hundreds of people would be in the outer court. They would have been witnesses to this miraculous event taking place. The high priest would roll away the outer veil that was in the Holy Place, then he would enter in beyond the veil in the Holy of Holies. Suddenly, as if grasped by giant unseen hands, that most sacred veil that guarded the Holy of Holies, barring all but the high priest from entering in, was torn in two.
Awe and amazement must have struck the priests as they heard and saw the stroke of God tearing the veil in half. The Holy of Holies stood wide open before all the priests as if to bid them to enter in — a privilege no priest except the high priest had enjoyed .since the very beginning of the tabernacle fifteen centuries years earlier. Now all could enter.
God was proclaiming to all those gathered there that the ministration of the priesthood had come to an end. No longer would high priest have to sacrifice, an animal on the Day of Atonement. Jesus, the true High Priest, had opened the way for mankind to come into the presence of God through His sacrifice, pouring out the atoning blood for our sin. That gap that once separated the holy righteous God from sinful depraved human race was bridged by the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Those who have entrusted themselves to Christ may have continuous access to the Holy of Holies.
The death of Jesus Christ as the sacrifice for sin was an expression of divine holiness. It is incomparably superior to that of the tabernacle and the Temple. If you want to know how God feels about sin, do not look at the veil. Do not look at the separation that God demanded in the Old Testament — three veils; an outer court, a Holy place, and a Holy of Holies. Look instead to Calvary. God hates sin so much that instead of separating Himself from it, He became one of us to overcome it. He hated it so much that He put to death His only Son so that we might know the forgiveness of sins.
Instead of one day a year in which only the high priest was permitted to enter into the Holy of Holies, all who believe in Christ have constant access to the Father through Christ. He has torn asunder that which once separated us from God through His death on the cross. From the cross Jesus spoke of divine mercy as no tabernacle furniture or veil could do. The greatest Day of Atonement has taken place through the One who sacrificed Himself for our sin — the spotless Lamb who made Himself a propitiation for our sins.

Further... The veil between’ the accessible and inaccessible parts of the Temple was designed to represent the entire material world during Jesus’ day. Josephus and Philo agree that the veil was composed of four materials representing the four elements—earth, water, air, and fire . Heaven was beyond this material world.

(ref: Josephus' book of Antiquities Ant. 3:181, cf. 3:123
Josephus' book of War 5:212-213
Josephus' book of Antiquities 3:138-144
Philo's book of Quaestiones in Exodum 2:85, cf. Mos 2:88)

I shal;l stop with the boringinfo. Just know there is pleanty out there.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Andrewn
Upvote 0

eclipsenow

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works
Dec 17, 2010
9,710
2,438
Sydney, Australia
Visit site
✟197,102.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
And as I have said, many times, Matt 24 is about both the temple being destroyed in AD70 AND the Last Day. Here's my summary so far (again) but many haven't taken in the implications of this yet.

Matthew 24 is one of the hardest passages in the bible to put aside futurist presuppositions for a few reasons: futurists want the whole thing to be about the End Times because that gives them modern Israel and 1948 to start drawing up timetables around. It’s also complicated because Jesus is answering 2 questions - the end of that temple then the end of the world in the future.


Many futurists just project the whole chapter into the Last Days - and take Jesus descriptions of the Romans sacking Jerusalem and the temple in AD70 to be about some future, still hypothetical third temple. This will not do! Jesus was not lying to the disciples! For chapters and chapters he had been warning the disciples against the current system. He has wept over Jerusalem, his Jerusalem! He has ranted about the corrupt Pharisees, the fig tree that didn’t bear fruit, the overturning of the money changer’s tables, against the way they accepted the last few coins from the widow - “all she had to live on!”, and even said for those who had faith “this mountain falling into the sea” would not be the end of their forgiveness from God - even if the temple mountain fell into the sea!


If they were listening, they should have understood the temple’s time was up. But the disciples were gawking at the ‘large stones’ of the temple like country bumpkins in the big city. They’re still trusting in the might of the temple system. So Jesus warns them it’s all coming down! Within ‘this generation’. He’s still trying to get them thinking about relationship with God in gospel terms. They’re just not getting it yet!


But then Jesus switches from talking about ‘these things’ in front of them - the temple and the Romans destroying it within that generation - to the more distant end of the world on “That day” in verse 36. It’s going to be a while. “But about that day or hour no one knows,” and the parable of the thief, the foolish servant, and the ten maidens and their lamps all illustrate how vigilant and patient the church will have to be as we wait for “That day”.


OK then! The first half is all about the temple, and the second half from verse 36 is all about “That day”. This is confirmed in other ways as well. The destruction of the temple is predictable, local, and escapable. You can do something about it! When you see the Romans coming - run away! Flee! But “That day” will be universal, unpredictable, and totally inescapable. These are very different things.


It all seems neat and tidy - yeah right! Because the great wrinkle in dividing Matthew 24 around verse 36 is 27 to 30 - the “Lightning from east to west”, sun and moon darkened and heavens shaken stuff! That sounds pretty end-of-the-world!


So what are we to do with this? Let’s look at the GOSPEL OPTION which makes sense of the Old Testament use of this language. We need to put aside our preconceived ideas and systematically go through this apocalyptic symbolism and try and find what is being quoted from the Old Testament. This is a view Sydney Anglicans prefer.


MATTHEW 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days“ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’”


= This sounds like the end of the world. But in the Old Testament this is the image used to describe a kingdom being burned to the ground.


Isaiah 13: "See, the day of the Lord is coming—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger— to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it. The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.”


= Isaiah writes a prophecy against Babylon where God brings Medes and Persians to strike down Babylon. But, typical of Hebrew hyperbolic symbolism - listen to this language!


Isaiah 34: “All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.”


= is a more universal judgment against all God's enemies - the picture of Edom. It has more graphic and physical battle language mixed in with the stars falling.


Joel 2: “Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.” = describes a vast army of the Lord bringing justice - and uses similar language.


Then what do we make of the next bit of Matt 24?


30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.


People are geographically challenged with the direction the Son of Man is travelling. He's not travelling TO the Earth here, but back TO the father!


Check Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.


People always think this is the Lord coming back to earth. What if this is the Lord Jesus, the Son of Man, going back into heaven and being welcomed by the Ancient of Days, God the Father, after dying for us all? Isn't that just the appropriate image for God the Son returning as the "Son of Man" who was killed and now lives? That’s when he was given an eternal dominion - the church. It’s the message of Revelation, that although bad things happen, Jesus reigns. Indeed according to Ephesians we are reigning in heaven with him now - even as our bodies remain here on earth.


Back to Matthew 24:31 “And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”


The word in the Greek is angelos, and can be translated as Angels, but can also mean messengers. This is why it’s the GOSPEL view - it's all about Jesus death and resurrection, and then the apostles gathering in the elect with the gospel message! Check these uses of "angelos" which is not angels but messengers or even spies!


James 2:25: "In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the SPIES and sent them off in a different direction?" (NIV, ESV says "messengers".)


Luke 9:52: "And he sent MESSENGERS ahead of him, who went and entered a village of the Samaritans, to make preparations for him."


So it all fits. Jesus is talking about his triumphant resurrection and welcome into heaven to sit by the right-hand of God where HE will reign from during this gospel era as the disciples go out to the ends of the earth with the new message of salvation that replaces the temple.


If I haven't explained it enough, here are Reformed Sydney Anglican Ministers doing a better job.


The first half of Matthew 24 - the readings start at 22:00 minutes in and then the talk.




The second half of Matthew 24 - readings start at 21 minutes in.




(Also, please do not text that mobile number questions as it is only for during the service.)


The Sydney Anglican view is controversial - but this paper compares this and DA Carson and other theologians on this passage. https://thematthewphile.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/matthew-24-25-nt4-2008-lecture-notes.pdf
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Andrewn
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,846
4,331
-
✟724,827.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Not to interject between a specific discussion ( even at the age of this one) but I have this in my my PC and it may, or possibly not, offer some additional info. Two links that seem to be authoritative but not in total agreement with each other.
Great info. The articles you quote mention a veil at the entrance of the holy place and even another veil at the entrance of the outer/men's court. But they agree with all other commentators that the veil that was torn at the Lord's death was at the entrance to the holy of holies. They don't give a reason for this choice, do they? How would you convince @3 Resurrections who believes it was the veil to the holy place that was torn?
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,846
4,331
-
✟724,827.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
And as I have said, many times, Matt 24 is about both the temple being destroyed in AD70 AND the Last Day. Here's my summary so far (again) but many haven't taken in the implications of this yet.
I'm partially convinced of your views. Will be listening to the podcasts when I have a chance.
 
Upvote 0

oikonomia

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
2,798
511
75
Orange County, CA
✟90,109.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Then what do we make of the next bit of Matt 24?


30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
These are the words out of the mouth of Jesus ssaying He has a public appearance, supernatural, on the clouds with great power and glory that will be witnessed by people on the earth.

People are geographically challenged with the direction the Son of Man is travelling. He's not travelling TO the Earth here, but back TO the father!
In Revelation chapter one "all the tribes of the land" (the twelve tribes in the Holy Land) will see Him coming in this glorious.
Whether others around the globe see this remains to be seen. I would not be suprised if somehow they know what is occuring over the land of Israel. We'll see.
Check Daniel 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.


That too is true. That is the ascension of Christ on a cloud to be inaguated to be the King. This corresponds to Revelation 5 where the Lamb freshly [edited] slain arrives in Heaven to receive such universal honor. This should agree with His parable of Luke 19:12.

He said therefore, A certain man of noble birth went to a distant country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return.


Though here in Daniel 7:13 He also comes to the Father with the cloud with which He ascended from the Mt. of Olives, it should not be confused with His own words that He will come in a similar manner with great glory at the end of the time of great tribulation.

Yes, one is ascending UP to Heaven in the clouds.
The other is His descending DOWN from Heaven in the clouds, witnessed by people on earth.

The angels said that His coming back would be in the same manner as His ascending to heaven.

And while they were looking intently into heaven as He went, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them,
Who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you beheld Him going into heaven. (Acts 1:10,11)

People always think this is the Lord coming back to earth.
Its a little mistake.
Okay, a bigger mistake. Anyway He comes with power and glory especially seen over the area of Israel.

What if this is the Lord Jesus, the Son of Man, going back into heaven and being welcomed by the Ancient of Days, God the Father, after dying for us all?
That's how it should be taken. I agree.
Isn't that just the appropriate image for God the Son returning as the "Son of Man" who was killed and now lives? That’s when he was given an eternal dominion - the church. It’s the message of Revelation, that although bad things happen, Jesus reigns. Indeed according to Ephesians we are reigning in heaven with him now - even as our bodies remain here on earth.


Back to Matthew 24:31 “And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”
This I believe refers to His gathering the Jews from all over the earth to return to the Holy Land.
This is in fulfillment to many OT promises of God. I have to write the many references out latter. Must go now.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

seekingHiswisdom

Active Member
Jun 28, 2023
53
17
78
Pennsylvania
✟20,668.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Great info. The articles you quote mention a veil at the entrance of the holy place and even another veil at the entrance of the outer/men's court. But they agree with all other commentators that the veil that was torn at the Lord's death was at the entrance to the holy of holies. They don't give a reason for this choice, do they? How would you convince @3 Resurrections who believes it was the veil to the holy place that was torn?

LOL, convincing @3 Resurrections of anything beyond his core beliefs is a task that shall remain a work in progress.

But in deciding for oneself which veil was torn one should come to a plausible conclusion as to why it was torn to begin with.

And one needs to always be aware that the renting of this veil was on crucifixion day and NOT during 70AD temple destruction time. Some conclude this, in error.

To me, It really is clear as day as to the reason the veil was torn in the first place.

The words from Jesus' mouth as he cried out ( "tetelestai" ")"It is finished."... came when when Jesus knew that all things were now completed, in order that the scripture might be fulfilled,

The gospels say that at the very moment Jesus died, the veil, or curtain, at the entrance to the Holy of Holies was rent from top to bottom ("And the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom." - Mark 15:38)

It is inconceivable to me to think any other but the veil to the Holy of Holies would have been the one God chose to tear.

Because The curtain being torn from top to bottom was a foreboding omen indicating that God's hand had torn it in two and that his presence was leaving that holy place. (See the Jewish Talmud, Yoma 39b).
The very curtain that separated the Holy Place from everyone but the high priest. The Holy Place was where the presence of God dwelled on the mercy seat.

And as Jesus said from the cross...

It is finished extended also to the Holy Father, Himself.

the relationship between God and humanity was altered forever.

NOW, With the tearing of the curtain, all who worship God, whether Jew or Gentile, have access to the throne of mercy by the one and final sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. (see Heb.4:15-16; 6:18-19; 9:1-15; 10:19-22.)

Now.... you might find the following link to be of interest.
From the journal of the evangelical theological society
"unusual phenomena in the temple around AD 30"


(It is far too long to copy here)

see especially page 306 AND ON:
Do extra-biblical sources report these events (or similar phenomena) occurring around the date of Jesus’ death? Following Jesus’ death, in the weeks and months ahead, did unusual phenomena continue in the temple— to indicate either that it was obsolete or that its destruction was imminent? For the remainder of this paper we will seek to answer these questions by looking at early Jewish sources which seem to provide some corroborating evidence for supernatural phenomena in the temple at the time of, or following, Christ’s crucifixion.

III. NON-BIBLICAL JEWISH SOURCES

Absolutely fascinating READING......

ENJOY
 
Upvote 0

3 Resurrections

That's 666 YEARS, folks
Aug 21, 2021
1,929
307
Taylors
✟100,883.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The gospels say that at the very moment Jesus died, the veil, or curtain, at the entrance to the Holy of Holies was rent from top to bottom ("And the curtain in the sanctuary of the Temple was torn in two, from top to bottom." - Mark 15:38)

It is inconceivable to me to think any other but the veil to the Holy of Holies would have been the one God chose to tear.
But your own link testifies that the particular veil to the Holy of Holies was actually two curtains layers separated by an 18" "corridor" for the high priest to pass through, with one curtain drawn up toward the south side, I believe it said? Exactly which one of those two curtain layers would have been torn at Christ's death? And how would the centurion standing at the foot of the cross have been able to SEE and marvel at that curtain being torn? For that to be possible, the centurion attending Christ's crucifixion would have also had to be standing simultaneously in the Holy place in front of the Holy of holies to directly observe that happening. Not at all possible. Gentiles had restrictions on temple access beyond which they could not go. And he could not have been standing in two different locations at the same time.

However, Christ's crucifixion on the head of the Mount of Olives (the "place of the skull") would have permitted the centurion standing by the crosses to look down across the Kidron Valley to the eastern entrance of the Holy place and see that outer veil being torn from top to bottom.

The significance of that outer veil being torn (which had only allowed the priests to enter that Holy place) illustrated that God no longer had any restrictions against Gentiles having access to that Holy place, or anyone who was ritually unclean. But the inner set of 2 overlapping veils over the entrance to the Holy of holies would not yet be accessible until Christ had been anointed our Great High Priest in heaven on His resurrection-day ascension. Christ had to FIRST make the way legally possible for mankind to come directly into God's presence ONLY after Christ's mediatorial role had been established at His resurrection-day ascension.

The legality of this process is explained in Hebrews 8:33-34. For us to be considered vicariously pure in God's sight, Christ's death was necessary as well as His resurrection and ascension when He was consecrated by God as our Great High Priest. "It is Christ that died, YEAH, RATHER, that is RISEN AGAIN, who is even AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, who also maketh intercession for us."

To have that inner set of veils over the Holy of holies torn at Christ's crucifixion would have been a picture portraying something that hadn't yet happened until Christ was resurrected and ascended to be anointed by God as our Great High Priest in heaven. It would "put the cart before the horse", so to speak.
 
Upvote 0

Oseas

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2017
2,409
203
88
Joinville
✟132,526.00
Country
Brazil
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Then what do we make of the next bit of Matt 24?
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
These are the words out of the mouth of Jesus ssaying He has a public appearance, supernatural, on the clouds with great power and glory that will be witnessed by people on the earth.
7 Behold, he cometh...and every eye shall see him(the Gentiles), AND they ALSO which pierced Him(the Jews/Israel-John 19:6-8 ): and ALL KINDREDS of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7
 
Upvote 0

Oseas

Well-Known Member
Jun 23, 2017
2,409
203
88
Joinville
✟132,526.00
Country
Brazil
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
People are geographically challenged with the direction the Son of Man is travelling. He's not travelling TO the Earth here, but back TO the father!
In Revelation chapter one "all the tribes of the land" (the twelve tribes in the Holy Land) will see Him coming in this glorious.
Whether others around the globe see this remains to be seen. I would not be suprised if somehow they know what is occuring over the land of Israel. We'll see.
1 Corinthians 15:24-27
24 The END cometh when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to GOD, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.<---Revelation 11:15 to 18

25 For he must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.<---Revelation 12:9 to 12

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.<--- Luke 20:35-36 combined with Revelation 20:9 to 12

Daniel 12:10-11

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand(Matthew 25:29.Take a look); but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
- Yeah, day 1335, the Ineffable, Wonderful, Indescribable, Unspeakable day, the day1.335. Hallelujaaah!!!


Luke 21:25-27

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, , and in the moon, and in the stars; <---Revelation 9: 1-12 (In consequene, what will happen with the woman? Rev.12:1); and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea(Gentile peoples) and the waves roaring; <---this cenary seems to be Revelation 13: 1

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. <---Yes, for the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2Peter 3:7


27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming...with Power and great Glory.

Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:8

THE WORD IS GOD, SELF-EXECUTING
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 19, 2017
3,490
1,046
Colorado
✟460,688.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Preterism relay on Scripture. In that, there is no doubt?

That there is no doubt, is debatable! Roman Catholics rely on scripture, Dispensationalists rely upon scripture, Jim Jones relied upon scripture, Jehovah's Witnesses rely on scripture, Pentecostals, Charismatics, and "Pray for Pay" Churches all rely upon the scripture. So that's a statement that can pretty much be applied to anyone. Every eschatological position has some scripture that they put forth that they rely upon. But what does that really mean? The fact is, there is only one truth. That means that they cannot "all" rely on scripture (in the sense of their conclusions having a legitimate Biblical foundation). So the question is not if one group or another relies upon scripture, but do they exegete it righteously, honestly and by the scripture alone. Sola Scriptura!

2nd Timothy 2:15
  • "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."
Do all rightly cut or make the right judgments on the scriptures? Every professed Christian divides the word of truth, but few "Rightly Divide" it. Few make a "just" division or cut. i.e., if I have a pie, and I divide it giving one child 3/4 and another 1/4, I have divided it, but I haven't rightly or justly divided it. I have not been noble, but dishonest in my dividing, and that is the sense of understanding and dividing God's Word honestly or justly. Relying on an isolated pet scripture is not enough, making a just cut or rightly exegeting the Word is the only way to come to "real" truth. And all eschatological positions do not do this. No matter how many scholars or writers give assent that they do.

The Bible is ancient literature like no other ancient literature. It's not to be understood or exegeted like the rest, nor can it be evaluated like the rest. It is a unique book in that it is God-breathed in every word, and perfectly authoritative truth profitable for instruction.

2nd Timothy 3:16-17
  • "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
  • That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
The TRUTH is that Josephus is NOT profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and for instruction in righteousness. Even by most historian's own admission, he wasn't an "unbiased" man in his writings. No extra-biblical writing is authoritative or profitable for interpreting God's Word. So is this man who we want to decide how we interpret God's Word? I THINK NOT! If we get our interpretations from him, we have gotten a "private extra-biblical interpretation" of man and not from God. If we get our interpretation from God's Word alone, then we have gotten it from God.

Genesis 40:8
  • "And they said unto him, We have dreamed a dream, and there is no interpreter of it. And Joseph said unto them, Do not interpretations belong to God? tell me them, I pray you."
Interpretations belong to God, not Josephus. And the only way to get them from God, is to get them from His Word. Not comparing Matthew 24 with the book of Josephus! That's about as clear as it can get. What is our divine authority on understanding prophesy? God's word or man's evaluations?

Before the first Advent of Christ the Old Testament thoroughly furnished men with truth unto all good works. The combined Old and New Testaments thoroughly furnish the saints today unto all good works. We don't need the non-christian historians like Josephus to tell us about how 70 AD is fulfilling anything, we have the Word of God to tell us how things are fulfilled. Period! Let us hear it speak. The Bible is not to be interpreted by secular writers, historical findings, the views of Josephus, or historical records to fill in the "so-called" gaps. God is not a God that leaves gaps to be filled in by men who are not even Christian. Interpretations belong to God, not secular writers and historians.

  • The Bible is it's own Interpreter
  • The Bible is it's own Dictionary
  • The Bible is it's own Historical Record
That is to say, only the mind of God can explain/interpret what God meant when He said something in parables (Genesis 40:8; 41:16) or written the books of Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, or Matthew. He does that by His Spirit, through His Holy Word, not through archaeologists or carnal writers. We have a sound mind in interpreting "by" having the testimony of the Word of God alone as our proof of what we are suggesting is true. When God says prove all things, He's not talking about asking secular writers or Godless historians.

With that said, ANY doctrines of Preterism, whether partial, full, hyper, reformed, etc. are NOT biblical because the Lord did NOT talk about Titus or 70AD.
 
Upvote 0

3 Resurrections

That's 666 YEARS, folks
Aug 21, 2021
1,929
307
Taylors
✟100,883.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
7 Behold, he cometh...and every eye shall see him(the Gentiles), AND they ALSO which pierced Him(the Jews/Israel-John 19:6-8 ): and ALL KINDREDS of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. Revelation 1:7
Why are you highlighting the word "ALSO" in this verse above (which I underlined)? This word never appears in the actual text, but is in italics in the KJV as being artificially inserted into the verse at the bias of the KJV translators. The word "AND" which you also highlighted (and I also underlined) does not necessarily mean "in addition to". This little Greek word "kai" has another possible meaning of "namely" or "specifically", or "even". This word "kai" can be used in an explanatory sense, and is not always used as a conjunction. In other words, the meaning would read "Behold, he cometh...and every eye shall see him, NAMELY (kai), they which pierced him: and all tribes of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen."

This specifically describes the ones who would see the bodily-returning Christ to the Mount of Olives. It would be "NAMELY (kai) THEY WHICH PIERCED HIM". This would be members of the twelve tribes of Israel which had been "the betrayers and murderers" of Christ who would see the bodily-returning Christ in that specific location of the Mount of Olives at Jerusalem.

It is also a mistake to insert "the Gentiles" into the Revelation 1:7 verse above. That is not at all the meaning which John intended.
 
Upvote 0