Preterism, both full & partial, are false.

[Timtofly]

The fire was brought by the Roman Empire and ended the land/nation of Israel. I am pretty sure there was also much smoke in the sky. So what was not fulfilled? Perhaps some figures of speech, but it is to be expected.

All the works of man burned up? 2 Peter 3 was not written to Judaism. It was written to all Gentile believers, all over the earth. Had nothing to do with the destruction of Jerusalem and an abandoned temple. Why are you connecting the NT and limiting it to Israel's prophecy?

 

[Timtofly]

So would you say that the word “saints” in Revelation 13:7 is not referring to believers?

I do not hold, like many, that the 144k, symbolize the church.

They are sealed before the opening of the 7th Seal. I do not think they were sealed by choice. If there are any elected nonbelievers, the 144k would be them.

Currently being born of the second birth is free to all. Is a free will choice. Can be rejected. That is not the case for the 144k. No where did they pray or beg God to seal them. In fact they were part of "all humanity" hiding from the face of God on the throne and the Lamb in the 6th Seal.

They are saints chosen by God. They are not killed. They go with Jesus to mount Zion, until the 42 months are over, and wait for Armageddon.

If they are sealed from harm, the fact they are sealed already gives them the protection of the first resurrection. I would say that was what being sealed provided, a permanent incorruptible physical body. Being sealed gave them eternal life for God's plan.

 

[Timtofly]

This is some bizarre reasoning you have going on here. Assuming their heads literally get chopped off, do you think they themselves are chopping off their own heads or something? Do you think murdering someone is not worthy of the LOF if they don't repent? If any of them have their heads literally chopped off, but that they themselves are not chopping off their own heads, nor are any followers of the beast and satan chopping off their heads, who is that you are proposing is chopping off their heads? In the real world when something like that happens it is always a real flesh and blood person chopping off someone's head. Maybe in cartoons or movies that might not always be true. But I'm talking about in the real world here.

Beheaded is as literal as being burned at the stake, or do you think that was just symbolism of the dark ages?

Do you think Satan is a good person and wants humans in the Lamb's book of life?

 

[grafted branch]

My original point was that Jesus said that His "overcoming" was in passing through death and resurrecting Himself from the dead, after which He was seated on His throne in heaven (Revelation 3:21).

John drew on this theme and applied it to the disciples as well. "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren." The believers were being encouraged to literally lay down their lives for the sake of the brethren in those days of persecution (1 John 3:16), in imitation of Christ having "overcome" in this same way. To risk dying sacrificially in service to their fellow believers in those days would have caused the saints to be temporarily "overcome" by physical death, but would have resulted in their being resurrected, when death was swallowed up in victory.

For Christ's sake, Paul said the believers were then being killed all the day long; they were being counted as sheep for the slaughter. But in all those things, Paul said "we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us." Death had no power to separate them from the love of God which was in Christ Jesus their Lord. (Romans 8:35ff).

Well, I would disagree that the believers took a risk by sacrificially dying for their brethren. I would say that after Christ’s resurrection death was conquered not AD 70. I think we both agree that those in Matthew 27:52 are the 144,000 but disagree on when they go the heaven; so I see what you’re saying but don’t want to get sidetracked with the AD 70 resurrection discussion.


I’m going to study the word “overcome” some more but at this time I can’t agree with physical death = overcome.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Well, I would disagree that the believers took a risk by sacrificially dying for their brethren.

Here is one example of this selfless act which Priscilla and Aquilla were commended for doing in Romans 16:4. Paul wrote about them, "Greet Priscilla and Aquilla my helpers in Christ Jesus: Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles." Whatever these two had done, in brotherly love they were willing to put their own lives on the line in order to protect the apostle Paul.

 

[trophy33]

All the works of man burned up? 2 Peter 3 was not written to Judaism. It was written to all Gentile believers, all over the earth. Had nothing to do with the destruction of Jerusalem and an abandoned temple.

Abandoned? The temple was destroyed, plundered and burnt and never built again.
The land was trembled, blood, smoke and vapor everywhere, hundreds of thousands of dead bodies, people eating even their children from hunger. People also reported armies in the skies fighting and other signs.
Those were terrible times. And Jews who survived were cast out of Palestine for many generations.

Also, "the heavens" were made new - no temple, no more prophets in Israel (and no Israel), no offerings, people from sheol were resurrected. The kingdom of God was spread to the whole world. Spiritually a totally new era came. Exactly as Daniel saw in his vision, during the Roman Empire the kingdom of God came and filled the earth, even the Roman Empire itself.

Why are you connecting the NT and limiting it to Israel's prophecy?

Because this is what happened. Whole planet or even universe were not burnt in the timeframe given by Jesus and apostles.

Its Palestinian prophetic language, not a technical description from a physics lesson. You are reading it as a 21st century American, which is wrong. You apply wrong cultural associations to the text.

 

[Timtofly]

Abandoned? The temple was destroyed, plundered and burnt and never built again.
The land was trembled, blood, smoke and vapor everywhere, hundreds of thousands of dead bodies, people eating even their children from hunger. People also reported armies in the skies fighting and other signs.
Those were terrible times. And Jews who survived were cast out of Palestine for many generations.

Yes, abandoned.

The temple system was abandoned by God, when on the Cross, the veil was torn from top to bottom, literally abandoned by God.

Also, "the heavens" were made new - no temple, no more prophets in Israel (and no Israel), no offerings, people from sheol were resurrected. The kingdom of God was spread to the whole world. Spiritually a totally new era came. Exactly as Daniel saw in his vision, during the Roman Empire the kingdom of God came and filled the earth, even the Roman Empire itself.


Because this is what happened. Whole planet or even universe were not burnt in the timeframe given by Jesus and apostles.

Its Palestinian prophetic language, not a technical description from a physics lesson. You are reading it as a 21st century American, which is wrong. You apply wrong cultural associations to the text.

The heavens were not new. The same stars in the sky today as before Christ was born. The same geographical earth as prior to the birth of Jesus. Nothing changed, period!

You cannot make Revelation fit into the time period it was handed to the 7 churches. It is still a future prophecy, until fullfilled.

Do you even think those letters got off the isle of Patmos, or hand delivered by John in time?

I am not applying any cultural settings to any Scripture.

 

[parousia70]

I disagree, but you already knew that. No sense in saying any more than that.

Refresh my memory. you disagree that there’s only one coming of Christ as a thief prophesied in scripture?
How many times Does Christ come as a thief? 2 times? 50 times? Hundreds? Thousands? Millions?
Or do you say Christ did not come as a thief to those at Sardis in the first century and it’s only one time but is future and was not for them?
What is your disagreement exactly?

Why do you suppose that such a significant event (the future coming of Christ) would not give any details about it in scripture?

maybe Because God knows that if people fret about an event not ordained to take place in their lifetime they will withdraw from their obligation to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness, as history has proven those who obsess about it have done?

I'm amazed that someone would believe in that event but at the same time believe that scripture contains no details about it.

I guess I’ll take that as a compliment. It’s nice to know someone finds me amazing

I'm glad you at least believe it will happen.

I’m glad that understanding, accepting and preaching the “correct” eschatology has Absolutely zero bearing on one’s salvation.

 

[trophy33]

The heavens were not new. The same stars in the sky today as before Christ was born. The same geographical earth as prior to the birth of Jesus. Nothing changed, period!

Prophetic language is not a scientific language. You read it as if it was written in the 21st century for a symposium of physicists. It was written in the 1st century Palestine for common folk. The words did not have the meaning that you are using.

You cannot make Revelation fit into the time period it was handed to the 7 churches. It is still a future prophecy, until fullfilled.
Do you even think those letters got off the isle of Patmos, or hand delivered by John in time?

I do not try to make Revelation to fit to anything. Its the most misunderstood book ever.

I am not applying any cultural settings to any Scripture.

After you talked about physical stars and planet regarding the prophecy in Gospels? Of course you are.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Do you even think those letters got off the isle of Patmos, or hand delivered by John in time?

Yes, those letters were dispersed in enough time to reach those churches in Asia, and for the information in Revelation to spread through the early church. That is because Revelation was written sometime between late AD 59 and early AD 60, just prior to the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake. From the year AD 60, there was time enough before the beginning of the war in AD 66 to alert the church of Revelation's revealed prophecies that were "at hand" in their generation - soon to be fulfilled.

Yes, abandoned.

The temple system was abandoned by God, when on the Cross, the veil was torn from top to bottom, literally abandoned by God.

This is true. It was set aside by the necessary "change in the law", when Christ changed the Levitical high priesthood at His first, resurrection-day ascension. The temple and its priesthood were spiritually abandoned then in God's eyes, but the Jews were still stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that their priesthood and temple system was defunct. So, God had to stage a very dramatic, physical demonstration for all of them to see and experience, with the temple system and Jerusalem being physically torn down to the last stone and laid level with the ground.

The heavens were not new. The same stars in the sky today as before Christ was born. The same geographical earth as prior to the birth of Jesus. Nothing changed, period!

Actually, yes, the literal geographical earth (tes ges - the land of Israel) was "shaken" and made new by the physical destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem, which all of Israel's existence as a people centered around. Literal documented earthquakes abounded in that era; one taking place on the occasion of Christ's physical return to the Mount of Olives in AD 70, leaving a new layer of earthquake landslide rubble behind in the Kidron Valley, which archaeologists have analyzed and dated to the AD 70 period.

The literal heavens were also "shaken" and made new with the eradication of the demonic realm in AD 70. Satan had been called "the prince of the power of the air". That is why the seventh angel poured out his vial in judgment on the air itself in Revelation 16:17. God was getting rid of the Satanic realm at that time.

The heavens of God's abode were made new also at that same time, with the admittance of the resurrected saints arriving there at the end of the 7th trumpet sounding.

We know that this "shaking" process of not only the earth but also the heavens took place in the first century, because Hebrews 12:26-27 said that God had NOW PROMISED to that generation to "shake" and then "remove" what was shaken from existence, so that God's unshaken New Covenant kingdom would remain among them.

 

[Timtofly]

Prophetic language is not a scientific language. You read it as if it was written in the 21st century for a symposium of physicists. It was written in the 1st century Palestine for common folk. The words did not have the meaning that you are using.


I do not try to make Revelation to fit to anything. Its the most misunderstood book ever.


After you talked about physical stars and planet regarding the prophecy in Gospels? Of course you are.

The Jews knew about the stars. They did not know about your modern day private opinion view of a new heaven and earth. They did not witness a new heaven and earth. No such thing as a planet either. Why would I talk about it?

 

[Timtofly]

Yes, those letters were dispersed in enough time to reach those churches in Asia, and for the information in Revelation to spread through the early church. That is because Revelation was written sometime between late AD 59 and early AD 60, just prior to the AD 60 Laodicean earthquake. From the year AD 60, there was time enough before the beginning of the war in AD 66 to alert the church of Revelation's revealed prophecies that were "at hand" in their generation - soon to be fulfilled.

You offer no proof or even if John left Patmos or someone else delivered them. One can put lots of faith in preterism just as putting lots of faith in Amil.

A new heaven in the way Jesus describes, no longer had stars in it. The earth will become a single continent. That is the new heaven and earth. Not a few earthquakes here and there.

I am sure you have some symbolic meaning to every mountain and every continent being moved out of their places, but I am sure the map looked the same today as it did in 30 AD.

 

[trophy33]

They did not witness a new heaven and earth.

How do you know?

 

[trophy33]

They did not know about your modern day private opinion view of a new heaven and earth.

Private? Lets see for example commentaries about heavens, stars etc in Isaiah who prophecised about the destruction of Edom:
"All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree."
Is34:4

"No prophetic picture of a “day of the Lord” was complete without this symbolism..."
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

"We have frequently had occasion to observe, that, in the prophetic language, the heavenly luminaries represent kings, empires, and states"
Benson Commentary

"The heavenly bodies often represent kings and princes...
"The sense is, that there would be great destruction among those high in office and in power."
Barnes' Notes on the Bible

" Violent convulsions of nature are in Scripture made the images of great changes in the human world (Isa 24:19-21), and shall literally accompany them at the winding up of the present dispensation"
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

" to represent great and general calamities..."
Matthew Poole's Commentary

"...this figure is used to express the horror of this calamity...
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

"He speaks this in respect to man's judgment, who in great fear and horrible troubles, think that heaven and earth perishes."
Geneva Study Bible

---

Its you who has some private modern literal interpretation of these biblical figures and images. Ancient nations used heavens in symbolic manner, more close to astrology than to astronomy.

 

[trophy33]

.

 

[Timtofly]

How do you know?

Because it is the same heaven and earth as in 30AD.

No one declared a time when there were no stars in heaven, and all the mountains and continents were moved out of their places.

 

[Timtofly]

Private? Lets see for example commentaries about heavens, stars etc in Isaiah who prophecised about the destruction of Edom:
"All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree."
Is34:4

"No prophetic picture of a “day of the Lord” was complete without this symbolism..."
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

"We have frequently had occasion to observe, that, in the prophetic language, the heavenly luminaries represent kings, empires, and states"
Benson Commentary

"The heavenly bodies often represent kings and princes...
"The sense is, that there would be great destruction among those high in office and in power."
Barnes' Notes on the Bible

" Violent convulsions of nature are in Scripture made the images of great changes in the human world (Isa 24:19-21), and shall literally accompany them at the winding up of the present dispensation"
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

" to represent great and general calamities..."
Matthew Poole's Commentary

"...this figure is used to express the horror of this calamity...
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

"He speaks this in respect to man's judgment, who in great fear and horrible troubles, think that heaven and earth perishes."
Geneva Study Bible

---

Its you who has some private modern literal interpretation of these biblical figures and images. Ancient nations used heavens in symbolic manner, more close to astrology than to astronomy.

No changes. Rome was still Rome. India was still India. China was still China. Egypt was still Egypt. Even Palestine was still Palestine, except Jerusalem was in rubble. Do you consider the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, a new heavens and earth? Where was such a judgment called a new heavens and earth to compare with your interpretation?


So comparing Noah's Flood and it's destruction of earth and changes to the heavens, is some new modern interpretation? I am not comparing what the ancients thought about stuff. I am comparing Scripture with Scripture.

 

[trophy33]

No changes. Rome was still Rome. India was still India. China was still China. Egypt was still Egypt. Even Palestine was still Palestine, except Jerusalem was in rubble. Do you consider the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, a new heavens and earth? Where was such a judgment called a new heavens and earth to compare with your interpretation?


So comparing Noah's Flood and it's destruction of earth and changes to the heavens, is some new modern interpretation? I am not comparing what the ancients thought about stuff. I am comparing Scripture with Scripture.

Israel ceased to exist = new earth.

New spiritual realities after Christ = new heavens.

No stars in the sky - no wordly kings in the kingdom of heavens (they were in the kingdom of Israel) and the end of Jewish leaders (Saducees, Pharisees, Levites...).

From the point of view of Jews, everything changed.

 

[parousia70]

A new heaven in the way Jesus describes, no longer had stars in it.

How about you exegete Leviticus 26:19 for us?
19: "and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass."

What does that mean? Heaven will literally turn to Iron and the earth will literally turn to brass?
When did that happen?
Or do you say this literal event is still future?

And who is the “you”?
“Your Heaven” “Your Earth”…
Is that you? Me? Who?
Who is this passage addressed to? Is it only for them, or for all people of all time?

Tell us what this passage means, as you understand it.
Clearly you believe it’s literal, no?
The literal heaven and the literal earth, right?

The earth will become a single continent.

Says which scripture?
Chapter and verse.

I am sure you have some symbolic meaning to every mountain and every continent being moved out of their places

Scripture sure does.

In every past fulfilled OT Judgment, God is always depicted as running around on the clouds, cleaving mountains in half, melting them like wax, making them level with the ground, etc...

Yahweh's various day-of-the-Lord judgments were signaled by the prophets with common apocalyptic language that consists of common apocalyptic idioms and metaphoric doom language. See these fulfilled prophecies and note the common apocalyptic metaphors in each:

*Micah 1:1-9 -- Assyrian conquest of Samaria and Jerusalem
*Nahum 1:1-8 -- Nineveh's doom
*Zephaniah 1:1-10,14-18 -- Judgment against Judah
*2 Samuel 22:8-16 -- the destruction of Saul's kingdom
*Ezekiel 32:1-12 -- Judgment against Egypt by Babylon

In each of these fulfilled passages, we read all of the common apocalyptic metaphors to describe Jehovah's comings:

*the destruction of earth
*the bowing of the heavens
*the melting of the mountains like wax
*the blackening of the sun, moon, and stars
*the wiping away of every living thing
*blood as high as the mountains
*the burning of the earth and all that dwell in it (at His presence)
*Etc. etc.

This is known as APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE, which is used by the prophets to foretell the downfall of nations and individuals by God in history.

Scripture interprets itself, and We have no scriptural instruction to interpret this OT prophesy about the Ancient Assyrian conquest of Jerusalem and Samaria as Metaphor:

The mountains will melt under Him,
And the valleys will split
Like wax before the fire,
Like waters poured down a steep place.

Yet Interpret the same language found in Zechariah 14 in Polar Opposite, Hyper-Literal Fashion.

Scripture simply does not allow for your fanciful hyper literal rendering of this language.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No changes. Rome was still Rome. India was still India. China was still China. Egypt was still Egypt. Even Palestine was still Palestine, except Jerusalem was in rubble.

You are disregarding the biggest change of all in this world. There was no more presence of the Satanic realm operating in this world after AD 70. God had "slain the dragon that is in the sea" with His great and strong sword, as Isaiah 27:1 predicted would happen in that day.

He also "caused the unclean spirits to pass out of the land", as Zechariah 13:2 predicted for the period surrounding the AD 70 siege against Judah and Jerusalem. Any evil influences operating in this world today originate from the evil impulses of the human heart, which is fully capable of creating misery for itself and its fellow creatures.