Preterism and Christ's Return

FreeinChrist · Nov 9, 2003

I'd respond to your post, Hitch - but you just keep flaming. And I don't know what this lingo is - "ona literalizinf Ezzy temple" - I'm assuming a typo.

Why don't you check out when Zechariah received his prophecies from God. The israelites were already allowed to go back to Jerusalem and the temple was in progress. Now I read Zechariah 12-14 - and don't see any fulfillment of this in 70 AD. Pagan Rome and Titus won.

Atkin · Nov 10, 2003

Pericles said:
How in the world can you believe the Law has been fulfilled????? I already pointed out that if the heavens and earth are still standing, you cannot say that the Law has been fulfilled! You are contradicting yourself per Christ's words:

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED." - Matthew 5:18

HAS THE HEAVEN AND EARTH PASSED AWAY???

What do you think will happen when Heaven and Earth passes away.??

I hope you are not expecting God to physically destroy the Planets

Stars and Sun to prove to you that Heaven and Earth has passed away.

C'mon, let us hear what you think would prove that Heaven and Earth has passed away.

Lest you forget, after Heaven and Earth passes away in the manner in which you speak, human beings would not have a Planet to live on.

Think hard. Seek understanding.
Wake up.

Atkin · Nov 10, 2003

FreeinChrist said:
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. While dispies believe that Israel will build a temple and restart sacrifices, which will be interupted in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, they are not sacrifices that are ordained by God. Those sacrifices will do nothing at all for them. their only salvation is recognizing WHO Jesus is - the Son of God who died for our sins. When they turn to Christ, then the Second Coming occurs. According to Zechariah 13, 1/3 come "through the fire".

Excuse me but is this not a very huge assumption?

What happens if this is not the scenario that has been planned?

Atkin · Nov 10, 2003

FreeinChrist said:
Zec 13:1 "In that day a fountain will be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for impurity.
Zec 13:2 "It will come about in that day," declares the LORD of hosts, "that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered; and I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land.
Zec 13:8 "It will come about in all the land," Declares the LORD, "That two parts in it will be cut off {and} perish; But the third will be left in it.
Zec 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.' "

Zec 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
Zec 14:4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be {the only} one, and His name {the only} one.
Zec 14:10 All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin's Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king's wine presses.Zec 14:11 People will live in it, and there will no longer be a curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.
Zec 14:12 Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth.
Zec 14:13 It will come about in that day that a great panic from the LORD will fall on them; and they will seize one another's hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another.
Zec 14:14 Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance.
Zec 14:15 So also like this plague will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey and all the cattle that will be in those camps.
Zec 14:16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

We have an issue that would really enlighten many congregations.

The ABOVE STATEMENT assumes Israel Mount Olives etc as prophesised

in the Old Testament refers to a location in the Middle East.

Now we CANNOT BE 100% certain that Old Israel= 21st century Israel

as from the POINT OF VIEW OF GOD HIMSELF.

So isn't that a huge huge huge huge gamble to assume 21st century Mount Olives etc would refer to the Middle East?

And if from God's perspective, his 21st century Israelites are not located in the Middle East WOULD THAT NOT BE AN EXTREMELY SEVERE SHOCK
to the billions of humans living on Earth and would that not DRASTICALLY
SHAKE UP THE ENTIRE PLANET SINCE IT WOULD turn HUNDREDS of years
of Biblical understanding upside down??

I mean, we cannot ASSUME that Jerusalem is in the MIDDLE EAST from
the perspective of God himself.

This is very serious and Christians and Jews need to be very careful regarding this dangerous situation, danger for the entire human race IMHO.

Rafael · Nov 10, 2003

There was something different about the Garden of Eden and the earth as it is now. The heavens and the physical came together at that point. After the fall, they seperated and death had rule over it. Jesus ushered in a spiritual kingdom that exists to this day and will bring a physical kingdom to earth again - where the heavens and earth will touch and the tree of life will be established again. Evidently, by scripture, there will be a physical population remaining alive - nations that will even risk no rain for their countries by not practising a partial reistablishment of some of the laws God gave in the Old Testament. The feast of Tabernacles, for one, and the sabbath. From scripture, I see that saints will rule with Christ and judge. So the population will be of the spiritual and the physical of a type not seen since the Garden of Eden. I don't see what the fuss is when scripture points to both physical and spiritual kingdoms. We know by Jesus commands what to do and how to abide in Him, but this may not be how the world will be governed during the 1000 year reign, Rod of Iron, that scriptures point to. We may have to wait and see, as it appears to be information given on a need to know basis. I don't think over spiritualizing what will be physical helps us understand. God seems to have no problem displaying both when ever He pleases, unlike us.

Pericles · Nov 10, 2003

Atkin said:
What do you think will happen when Heaven and Earth passes away.??

Lest you forget, after Heaven and Earth passes away in the manner in which you speak, human beings would not have a Planet to live on.

Think hard. Seek understanding.
Wake up.

They already passed away...in AD 70.

My question was adderssed to FreeinChrist, who claimed that Christ fulfilled the Law (past tense). I asked him once, and he ignored my question, how he can believe the Law Has been fulfilled and he still believes the heaven ad eart are still standing? FreeinChrist....please answer the question!

Patmosman_sga · Nov 10, 2003

FreeinChrist said:
Who is running from what? I am looking forward to what Christ does today, and will do tomorrow - and to a future physical return of Jesus. I am not Catholic, but I take that you are? Don't they believe in a future physical return of Christ?

Don't confuse Real Presence (the doctrine of the Eucharist held in common by Methodists, Anglicans, Catholics, and Orthodox) with transubstantiation (the narrow Catholic attempt to explain the Real Presence). I believe both in Christ's ongoing presence in the midst of the believing community (experienced most significantly in the Eucharist) and in his personal (physical) presence in the midst of a fully redeemed new creation at the consummation of the ages.

parousia70 · Nov 10, 2003

Patmosman_sga said:
When will the Lord return? Next Sunday! The "end" is as near as your local church, and it's something you should be running to, not from.

parousia70 · Nov 10, 2003

rebaa said:
Is this salvation "through the fire" avaible only for the Jew?

rebaa, that is a great question!

One I too am eager to hear free's response for.

FreeinChrist · Nov 10, 2003

Patmosman_sga said:
Don't confuse Real Presence (the doctrine of the Eucharist held in common by Methodists, Anglicans, Catholics, and Orthodox) with transubstantiation (the narrow Catholic attempt to explain the Real Presence). I believe both in Christ's ongoing presence in the midst of the believing community (experienced most significantly in the Eucharist) and in his personal (physical) presence in the midst of a fully redeemed new creation at the consummation of the ages.

Thanks for clarifying. I don't believe in transubstantiation. As I believe in the indwelling of believers by the Holy Spirit, so Christ is with us all the time, and the most significant times may not be in church at all. (One person in my church was inprisoned in the Egypt for teaching about Christ and spent a month in a dark, dirty hole. He said that during that time, he was closer to Christ than ever before, and felt truly blest through the experience.) In discussing the end times, it has to do with his personal (physcial) presence at a future time.
Are you amillennial, then?

FreeinChrist · Nov 10, 2003

rebaa said:
Is this salvation "through the fire" avaible only for the Jew?

No. I quoted from Zechariah about Jeusalem, specifically:
Zec 13:8 "It will come about in all the land," Declares the LORD, "That two parts in it will be cut off {and} perish; But the third will be left in it.
Zec 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.' "
Taken in the context of Zechariah 12-14, I believe that this is a future event, and not fulfilled in 70 AD. For one, this did't happen:
Zec 14:3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
And
Zec 14:12 Now this will be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth.
I don't believe the Roman army that went against Jerusalem suffered the above, as they left victorious.

And I'm sure you know this verse:
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Was this a verse you were thinking of?

Now I have answered several questions from you, which you seem to ask with an agenda behind it. How about if you answer the following that I asked a few pages back:

Did you get the point of what I wrote though? Did Noah have to get circumcized? Was Abraham under the Law?
Didn't those in the Old Covenant mediated by Moses have to be circumcized (males anyway) and follow the Law in regards to sacrifices, washings, food, and much more?
Now do we, in the New Covenant, have to sacrifice animals? Are we forbidden to wear cloth made of two different fibers? Do we have to be physically circumcized? NO.

Patmosman_sga · Nov 10, 2003

FreeinChrist said:
Are you amillennial, then?

No. I am not a fan of any of the popular "millennial theories." They all have their strengths and weaknesses, but none of them really tell the whole story. If I had to come up with a term to describe my views, it would probably be "trans-millennial."

rebaa · Nov 10, 2003

Did you get the point of what I wrote though?

Click to expand...

I understood what you were saying.

Did Noah have to get circumcised?

Click to expand...

no

Seems Noah had some commandments of God to follow
Gen 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

Was Abraham under the Law?

Click to expand...

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Didn't those in the Old Covenant mediated by Moses have to be circumcised (males anyway) and follow the Law in regards to sacrifices, washings, food, and much more?

Click to expand...

yes

Now do we, in the New Covenant, have to sacrifice animals?

Click to expand...

no, I dont, but do you have a third covenant to cover these?
Ezek 43:22-24 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.

23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.

24 And thou shalt offer them before the LORD, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the LORD.

Are we forbidden to wear cloth made of two different fibers?

Click to expand...

no Psa 132:9 Let thy priests be clothed with rightenousness ; and let thy saints shout for joy.

Do we have to be physically circumcised?

Click to expand...

NO.

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

1 Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

( still learning the format and editing here)

FreeinChrist · Nov 10, 2003

Pericles said:
They already passed away...in AD 70.

My question was adderssed to FreeinChrist, who claimed that Christ fulfilled the Law (past tense). I asked him once, and he ignored my question, how he can believe the Law Has been fulfilled and he still believes the heaven ad eart are still standing? FreeinChrist....please answer the question!

And I had asked you what part of the Law you are referring to in regards to the new heavens and new earth. No answer.
And you complained about the length of my posts. Seems you want a 5 sec. answer.

Ways that I believe the Law has been fulfilled? (the following is from my class notes - and this is a short version).
Looks at the Tabernacle
a. one door into it - Jesus refers to Himself as the door (John 10:9).
b. the alter was just inside, and the sacrifice was tied to one of the four horns on the alter. The alter is God's picture of Christ nailed to the cross.
c. the laver is beyond the alter, and is were the priests washed daily. they couldn't enter the Holy Place without washing. Jesus said we are made clean through the Word he has spoken to us (John 15:3, Ephesians 5:26).
Now look at the tent of the meeting
d. on the right is the table of shewbread. One it were 12 loaves of bread representing the 12 tribes. They were eaten every Sabbath, then fresh bread was placed on the table. Jesus referred to Himself as the Bread of life (John 6:48). This is a picture of what Christ commanded - that we observe the Communion meal with bread and wine.
e. One the left is the 7 branched candlestick of gold. It burned oil day and night. Jesus is the light (John 1:4). The Holy Spirit is referred to as the seven-fold Spirit of God. ( or seven spirits of God Rev. 4:5)
f. an alter of incense was in the Holy Place and burned all the time. Its fragrance wafted acrss the mercy seat of God. It is a picture of Jesus Christ, our high priest who ever lives to make intercession for us (Hebrews 7:25)
g. The veil separated the Holy of Holies from the Holy Place. No priest could enter the Holy of Holies except through the veil. It was the only way to approach the ark of the covenant, on which was the mercy seat of God. this veil was a picture of Christ's flesh, (Hebrews 10:20) and of man's separation from God. The only way to God is therough the "veil" - Jesus Christ. When He died, the veil in the tent of the meeting was ripped top to bottom, signifying the end of the Old Covenant. As believers in Christ, we can approach the throne of grace with confidence. (Hebrews 10:19-22) In the Old Covenant, the High Priest could enter only once a year, and none of the congregation. But we can go in every day, all who believe in Jesus Christ.
h. The ark of the covenant was in the Holy of Holies, and on top was the mercy seat of God. It is a picture of the throne of God. We have the Trinity in the Tent of the Meeting. At the mercy seat, we also see Jesus, who was with God and is God (John 1:1), the "I AM" , who is one with the Father (John 8:58, John 10:30-33).
i The mercy seat, made of solid gold, sat on top of the ark. One time a year, on the Day of Atonement, the blood of a goat was placed on the mercy seat to cover the sins of the people. God hovered above the mercy seat in a pillof cloud or fire ( the Shekinah glory of God) This is a picture of when Christ enters the Holy of Holies in heaven as our atonement, with His own blood, a once for all sacrifice for sin. (Hebrews 10:10-13)
j. In regards to the blood of the goat, read Leviticus 16, and in particular, note 8 and 9. Two goats are brought together. One is made the sin offering and one is let go in the wilderness. This is a picture of Barrabus (sp?) who is let go, while Christ is sacrificed. (there is more fulfillemnt here, but then this would be very long).
k. instead of physical circumcizism, we are spiritually circumcized. Col 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

l. The bull and the goat offerred for the sin offering on the Day of Atonement, were burned outside the camp. Lev. 16:27 Christ was "burned" (sacrificed ) outside the "camp" - at Calvary. (Hebrews 13:11-13)

NOw for some interesting differences between the Old and the New:
a. regarding the priesthood - under the Old, the priests had to offer sacrifices for themselves and the congregation, were according to the order of Aaron (Levitical preisthood), they died so there were many of them. In the New covenant - Jesus was sinless, and did not have to make atonement for himself, was a priest according to the order of Melchizedek, holds His priesthood perpetually,
b. the sacrifices - the blood of bulls and goats covered sin, but didn't remove sin. They had to be offered again and again. But Jesus was offered once for all for the remission (removal of sin) and He entered the Holy of Holies in heaven, and then sat down at the right hand of God.
Hbr 9:11 But when Christ appeared {as} a high priest of the good things to come, {He entered} through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
Hbr 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

c. the red heifer - the ashes of a red heifer was to cleanse the flesh of one who had been by or touched one who had died. (Numbers 19) In the New Covenant, because fo the sacrifice of Christ, we are made alive, cleasnsed by God.

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

The word for qualified zoopoieo and means to make alive, to vivify . In this verse, it is an aorist particle active voice the Subject, which is the Father, does the simple action.

Now, I could post more and more. But it would really help, Pericles, if you would post which part of the Law is unfulfilled. Please reference the scripture. Saying the new heavens and new earth are required to fulfill the Law that was given to Moses is inadequate.
And if you are going to refer to Psalm 110:1 - that isn't part of the Law.

FreeinChrist · Nov 10, 2003

rebaa said:
Seems Noah had some commandments of God to follow
Gen 6:22 Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

Yes, he was instructed to build an ark and who and what to put on it. But Noah was not under Mosaic law. He didn't need to sacrifice a red heifer, and
there was no Levitical priesthood. Noah conversed directly with God.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Click to expand...

Yes, but he wasn't under the Mosaic Law - no Levitical preisthood. In fact, Abraham offered a tenth of spoils to Melchizedek, King of Salem and priest of the most high God. (Genesis 14:18-20) Check out Hebrews 7. Jesus is a High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek. Now read Genesis 15 - not the promises Abram received - what was Abram to do to get them? nothing. Abraham communed dierectly with God - not via a high priest.

no, I dont, but do you have a third covenant to cover these?
Ezek 43:22-24 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.

23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.

24 And thou shalt offer them before the LORD, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the LORD.

Click to expand...

Can I explain all this? No. Other than I believe it is part of the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. The temple that is described was never built and cannot fit on the temple mount. And I don't believ it is the temple that will be built at the beginning of the trib. And there is this:
Eze 43:7 He said to me, "Son of man, {this is} the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever ...

Some interesting sites in regrds to the Temple mount are these:

http://www.templemount.org/history.htm
http://www.templemount.org/TM34.html

and this :
http://www.templemount.org/ezektmp.html
which has this quote:

"Ezekiel's temple and the millennium occupies the last eight long chapters of his book. He gives 318 precise measurements of the temple using some 37 unique words that are architectural terms, such as "door-posts," "windows," etc. Ezekiel received this great wealth of information on the millennial temple in the year 572 BC in the form of a vision and a personally conducted tour of the temple by "a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze." (Evidently the Angel of the Lord). "He had a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand and he stood in the gateway." (40:3)"

and
"In addition to the physical differences in Ezekiel's Temple a number of changes are made in the annual cycle of Jewish feasts. It is very clearly that the Millennial Temple sacrifices are definitely not a re-instatement of the Mosaic system"

It includes some interesting features of the temple described in Ezekiel - no laver, no special place for women, no 7 candle lampstand, no alter of incense, and more.

I found it interesting, anyway.

rebaa · Nov 10, 2003

IS forever a thousand years?

rebaa · Nov 10, 2003

Free your quote

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. While dispies believe that Israel will build a temple and restart sacrifices, which will be interupted in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, they are not sacrifices that are ordained by God. Those sacrifices will do nothing at all for them. their only salvation is recognizing WHO Jesus is - the Son of God who died for our sins. When they turn to Christ, then the Second Coming occurs. According to Zechariah 13, 1/3 come "through the fire".

Click to expand...

my question... Is this salvation "through the fire" avaible only for the Jew?

your answer

No. I quoted from Zechariah about Jeusalem, specifically:

Zec 13:8 "It will come about in all the land," Declares the LORD, "That two parts in it will be cut off {and} perish; But the third will be left in it.
Zec 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.' "
Taken in the context of Zechariah 12-14, I believe that this is a future event, and not fulfilled in 70 AD. For one, this did't happen: . . . .

So is Zech specific to the Jews ?

FreeinChrist · Nov 10, 2003

rebaa said:
my question... Is this salvation "through the fire" avaible only for the Jew?

So is Zech specific to the Jews ?

Yes, I believe so. Especially if you first consider the whole book of Zechariah first and then interpret the verses within the context of the whole book.

rebaa · Nov 10, 2003

Then why did you anser no?

Hitch · Nov 10, 2003

Zech 12:11-13:1
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

CHAPTER 13

1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
(KJV)

Is this yet future?

H

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