Presbyterian With No Way to Join Reformed Fellowship

[chevyontheriver]

I'd be willing to bet that, during the initial disciplinary process, they did.

Perhaps, and perhaps it went in one ear and out the other, as so often happens when people try to tell me things. But I could also see it as them thinking that of course everybody knows the whole process so they don't have to explain it.

We were not there.

 

[Sheep77]

Anyway, thanks for the help

 

[chevyontheriver]

Anyway, thanks for the help

Hope we helped and didn't hinder.

 

[Redwingfan9]

This has haunted me a long time, and I can't think of any way to set everything back to normal. Bear with me through the story:

I was raised Southern Baptist, and at 17 started learning theology to learn why I was Baptist and not another denomination. I eventually ended up accepting Reformed Theology as Scriptural and joined a small PCA church that seemed really traditionally Presbyterian. I was there for 3 years faithfully following everything they taught, but ended up falling away at 20 due to the New Age movement. I was completely unprepared to be able to defend myself against it's deceptive misinterpretations of Holy Scripture, and left the church and was honest with the elders about why I was leaving, as I didn't want to be secretive or get others under that church to follow my beliefs at the time.

3 years later, I came back to my senses and was truly repentant, and cut out all the evil from my life. I was so happy to return home, and likened it to the Prodigal Son returning home, with the father joyfully accepting his son back. That's not at all what happened: I was under discipline for failure to uphold my vows, and barred from communion. Not a single person at the church wanted to be seen near me, and the elders blamed me for their son falling into New Age ideas (he left it behind quickly, but the bitterness was still there). I didn't cause it, and didn't advocate anyone to accept anything I believed: I kept it to myself and the elders.

After a few weeks there with the most uncomfortable and stilted reception they gave communion, and this is when they told me about be barred from communion: the elder told me, then passed over me. I left the church immediately and balled my eyes out. I knew Jesus had forgiven me, and He longed for me to be forgiven here too. I liken it to the Adulterous Woman 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.' I left and never went back, and never could join a Reformed or Presbyterian Church again because they will not accept my membership because of my old church.

I then began to see Protestantism itself as inherently flawed. This was a heart-wrenching time in my life, and I was alone and confused about what to do. I started to study church history, read the saints, and joined a Catholic RCIA class (Roman Catholic Initiation for Adults). They welcomed me lovingly and seemed more Christlike in my eyes than my Presbyterian Church was. I didn't finish the RCIA class because I started to realize Catholicism is no longer what once was: they betrayed their own traditions for postmodernism, and were told to submit to an antichrist in Pope Francis, and I just couldn't do it.

I left for Eastern Orthodoxy, and nearly finished the conversion process, and left after I realized that all the traditions the Orthodox held were not Scriptural, but stunk of paganism. I became a member of no church but Christ's body, but held to my Reformed convictions yet again. I want to go to a faithful church again, but I would never be able to partake of communion again unless I went to a non-Reformed church, and I refuse to believe that what that former church did was charitible, loving, or Christlike, I love, cherish, and make Christ the center and end of my life, finding forgiveness in Him, but man-made traditions make it near impossible to ever have proper fellowship again with like-minded brethren, that I may not forsake the assembling of ourselves' together.

I'm torn and broken: Christ has healed me, but men refuse to accept Christ's judgement on this matter. Please help me to be able to find the proper way to overcome this sad reality I now live in

You left your PCA church way too quickly. You were clearly excommunicated and in order to be restored you need to show that you are truly repentant and you need to serve some punishment for falling away. Where I would fault the church is that they clearly did not communicate with you what the path forward was. I don't think it would be unreasonable to bar you from the table for 3-6 months while you show the elders the fruits of your faith. That should have been communicated to you though.

If they refused to tell you or were entirely unreasonable then I think you should have appealed to presbytery. In Presbyterian churches you always have the right to appeal to a higher body. The local church isn't a dictatorship of elder oligarchs or the pastor.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

This has haunted me a long time, and I can't think of any way to set everything back to normal. Bear with me through the story:

I was raised Southern Baptist, and at 17 started learning theology to learn why I was Baptist and not another denomination. I eventually ended up accepting Reformed Theology as Scriptural and joined a small PCA church that seemed really traditionally Presbyterian. I was there for 3 years faithfully following everything they taught, but ended up falling away at 20 due to the New Age movement. I was completely unprepared to be able to defend myself against it's deceptive misinterpretations of Holy Scripture, and left the church and was honest with the elders about why I was leaving, as I didn't want to be secretive or get others under that church to follow my beliefs at the time.

3 years later, I came back to my senses and was truly repentant, and cut out all the evil from my life. I was so happy to return home, and likened it to the Prodigal Son returning home, with the father joyfully accepting his son back. That's not at all what happened: I was under discipline for failure to uphold my vows, and barred from communion. Not a single person at the church wanted to be seen near me, and the elders blamed me for their son falling into New Age ideas (he left it behind quickly, but the bitterness was still there). I didn't cause it, and didn't advocate anyone to accept anything I believed: I kept it to myself and the elders.

After a few weeks there with the most uncomfortable and stilted reception they gave communion, and this is when they told me about be barred from communion: the elder told me, then passed over me. I left the church immediately and balled my eyes out. I knew Jesus had forgiven me, and He longed for me to be forgiven here too. I liken it to the Adulterous Woman 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.' I left and never went back, and never could join a Reformed or Presbyterian Church again because they will not accept my membership because of my old church.

I then began to see Protestantism itself as inherently flawed. This was a heart-wrenching time in my life, and I was alone and confused about what to do. I started to study church history, read the saints, and joined a Catholic RCIA class (Roman Catholic Initiation for Adults). They welcomed me lovingly and seemed more Christlike in my eyes than my Presbyterian Church was. I didn't finish the RCIA class because I started to realize Catholicism is no longer what once was: they betrayed their own traditions for postmodernism, and were told to submit to an antichrist in Pope Francis, and I just couldn't do it.

I left for Eastern Orthodoxy, and nearly finished the conversion process, and left after I realized that all the traditions the Orthodox held were not Scriptural, but stunk of paganism. I became a member of no church but Christ's body, but held to my Reformed convictions yet again. I want to go to a faithful church again, but I would never be able to partake of communion again unless I went to a non-Reformed church, and I refuse to believe that what that former church did was charitible, loving, or Christlike, I love, cherish, and make Christ the center and end of my life, finding forgiveness in Him, but man-made traditions make it near impossible to ever have proper fellowship again with like-minded brethren, that I may not forsake the assembling of ourselves' together.

I'm torn and broken: Christ has healed me, but men refuse to accept Christ's judgement on this matter. Please help me to be able to find the proper way to overcome this sad reality I now live in

I'm a Christian Reformed Church retired pastor. We would welcome with open arms except for the present pandemic. Not all PCAs would have the same judgmental attitudes as that one. We CRC people tend to be on the grace and love side of the Scriptures rather than strong legalism.

My advice is that you keep visiting churches of the Reformed persuasion. God rescued me at the age of 16 in a Baptist church and led me to be a student at Calvin University (then, college), where I learned the Reformed faith for the first time. I was christened a Methodist, grew up in theologically-liberal or neo-orthodox church, attended that Baptist church 6 months, and attended a cult for 1 1/2 years. I came to the conclusion after learning the Reformed faith that at its best it interprets the Bible from its own assumptions instead of from human assumptions.

Keep trying to find a solid, biblical church of the Reformed tradition. If you live in West Michigan, you can find many of them here. I would invite you to our church.

 

[chevyontheriver]

You left your PCA church way too quickly. You were clearly excommunicated and in order to be restored you need to show that you are truly repentant and you need to serve some punishment for falling away. Where I would fault the church is that they clearly did not communicate with you what the path forward was. I don't think it would be unreasonable to bar you from the table for 3-6 months while you show the elders the fruits of your faith. That should have been communicated to you though.

If they refused to tell you or were entirely unreasonable then I think you should have appealed to presbytery. In Presbyterian churches you always have the right to appeal to a higher body. The local church isn't a dictatorship of elder oligarchs or the pastor.

I don't think everyone gets the idea of a church which tries to do discipleship using some discipline. We expect gushy warm fuzzy stuff all the time. We expect that God loving us all the time means we can do what we want all the time. And that anything goes, at least as far as we are concerned.

The Catholic Church has some discipline. But it's rare. The PCA has a lot of discipline. Somewhere between the two is the right amount. Churches should, on occasion, excommunicate. It's Biblical. And any church that takes discipleship seriously will do it at least from time to time.

But such things do not sit well with some people. And if you don't know what to expect it will sit even less well.

You mentioned 'punishment', which I thought was odd. The whole process should be medicinal, even if the medicine tastes bad. And Reformed theology has no place for penances anyway, having jettisoned that. Penances would make sense if this was a Catholic situation, but 'punishment' sounds like, well, punishment.

 

[hedrick]

If they refused to tell you or were entirely unreasonable then I think you should have appealed to presbytery. In Presbyterian churches you always have the right to appeal to a higher body. The local church isn't a dictatorship of elder oligarchs or the pastor.

I doubt there’s anything to appeal. This person left a PCA church. I assume they removed him from the rolls, or at least made him inactive. He implied that when leaving he told the Session he was leaving and why. That might have caused them to remove or deactivate him immediately. At least based on the OP that would be reasonable. He doesn’t indicate that he had joined again or reactivated his membership when he came back after 3 years. That would require meeting with the Session, if it’s anything like the PCUSA. The OP makes it sound like that might have started, but not finished. To take communion in the PCA you must be a member in good standing of an acceptable church. As far as I can tell from the OP he was not and still is not.

if I’m right that he was removed from the rolls, I guess that could be appealed, but being away for three years is probably enough, no to mention telling the elders he was leaving. Furthermore, since then he has attended Catholic and Orthodox churches, which complicates any appeal.

it doesn’t sound like he’s excommunicated so much as not a member. After that history any conservative reformed churcH would want to be sure he’s back for real before accepting him as a member.

if my guesses are right, the church failed to be clear about what was going on, but might not have acted unreasonably.

if he now wants to be part of a Reformed Church, he will have to meet with the elders, even in the PCUSA. With this history, they will want to make sure he is back for real. The PCUSA would probably take him at his word, but would require meeting with the pastor and a new member class. The big difference is that we have open communion, so he could participate before that process is finished.

 

[Radagast]

This person left a PCA church. I assume they removed him from the rolls

You're right; technically they would have done that rather than excommunicating him. It has much the same effect, however: he would not have been entitled to communion.

if he now wants to be part of a Reformed Church, he will have to meet with the elders, even in the PCUSA. With this history, they will want to make sure he is back for real.

Yes, I would think so.

And there are certainly aspects to the story that would make the elders of most churches move a little slowly.

 

[Mountainmike]

I suspect you know all you need to about the congregation that shunned you:
"heaven rejoices over one sinner that repents"!

One of the problems I saw of presbyterian and similar congregations is doctrine is much down to the pastor and elders interpretation. That cannot be right. THere is but one truth. Like you , I am ex protestant, and took a meandering route home to the catholic church having studied a few on the way.

I find your reasoning hard to accept about "postmodernism" in the catholic church: it is in many ways the slowest to change and (rightfully) one of the last bastions against change on (such as) pro life, contraception , and other issues.

I look at catholicism and see the doctrine and church I see in the fathers two millenia ago. It may have grown from acorn to oak, so the structures are bigger and more unwieldy. It also has its fair share of sinners everywhere in the hierarchy. Nobody ever claimed otherwise. And with the size of the RC church, that is a lot of sinners, including popes, and none of them would ever claim otherwise!

For me at least, I do not worry about apostasy because Jesus gave a promise, that his church would be one and the gates of hell would not prevail against it..
So even popes could not change anything were it not the will of Jesus. So look again at the history of the church and decide which has the longevity , stableness of doctrine to be the "pillar and foundation of truth" which is indeed a physical church, because the bible claims it to be the "household of God" which we know from OT is a physical church

If I were to make a single suggestion watch videos from : the Grodi "Journey Home "series. Find those where presbyterian and baptist ministers and theologians came home to catholicism. There are a great many, possibly 1000 total and a proportion from every other congregation, and a search feature to find those that might interest you. Grodi himself and such as Hahn were presbyterian ministers. Listen to their reasoning.

See if you agree. Hear their objections and how they overcame them. Or indeed, the books like "reason to believe" madrid. Even if you dont agree, it might help clarify your own thoughts.

You are not alone on the journey. Many have taken the journey you have. You will discover as I did, that every question you have has been asked by many before, and the questions have answers!

Strangely I found those to ask were not the lifelong catholics! They tended to know what they believed but not why. Those who had made the journey from elsewhere were far better versed in the apologetic arguments. Like "why do we believe confession is a sacrament?"

Even the title "queen of heaven" and intercession of Mary has biblical answers if you look. But it is mostly converts who know the answers. Did you know that in the davidic kingdoms and solomons time the title queen was given to mother not spouse of the king, and we see in solomons time the queen was given a throne and had power of intercession "I will do whatever you ask" said the king!.

This has haunted me a long time, and I can't think of any way to set everything back to normal. Bear with me through the story:

I was raised Southern Baptist, and at 17 started learning theology to learn why I was Baptist and not another denomination. I eventually ended up accepting Reformed Theology as Scriptural and joined a small PCA church that seemed really traditionally Presbyterian. I was there for 3 years faithfully following everything they taught, but ended up falling away at 20 due to the New Age movement. I was completely unprepared to be able to defend myself against it's deceptive misinterpretations of Holy Scripture, and left the church and was honest with the elders about why I was leaving, as I didn't want to be secretive or get others under that church to follow my beliefs at the time.

3 years later, I came back to my senses and was truly repentant, and cut out all the evil from my life. I was so happy to return home, and likened it to the Prodigal Son returning home, with the father joyfully accepting his son back. That's not at all what happened: I was under discipline for failure to uphold my vows, and barred from communion. Not a single person at the church wanted to be seen near me, and the elders blamed me for their son falling into New Age ideas (he left it behind quickly, but the bitterness was still there). I didn't cause it, and didn't advocate anyone to accept anything I believed: I kept it to myself and the elders.

After a few weeks there with the most uncomfortable and stilted reception they gave communion, and this is when they told me about be barred from communion: the elder told me, then passed over me. I left the church immediately and balled my eyes out. I knew Jesus had forgiven me, and He longed for me to be forgiven here too. I liken it to the Adulterous Woman 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.' I left and never went back, and never could join a Reformed or Presbyterian Church again because they will not accept my membership because of my old church.

I then began to see Protestantism itself as inherently flawed. This was a heart-wrenching time in my life, and I was alone and confused about what to do. I started to study church history, read the saints, and joined a Catholic RCIA class (Roman Catholic Initiation for Adults). They welcomed me lovingly and seemed more Christlike in my eyes than my Presbyterian Church was. I didn't finish the RCIA class because I started to realize Catholicism is no longer what once was: they betrayed their own traditions for postmodernism, and were told to submit to an antichrist in Pope Francis, and I just couldn't do it.

I left for Eastern Orthodoxy, and nearly finished the conversion process, and left after I realized that all the traditions the Orthodox held were not Scriptural, but stunk of paganism. I became a member of no church but Christ's body, but held to my Reformed convictions yet again. I want to go to a faithful church again, but I would never be able to partake of communion again unless I went to a non-Reformed church, and I refuse to believe that what that former church did was charitible, loving, or Christlike, I love, cherish, and make Christ the center and end of my life, finding forgiveness in Him, but man-made traditions make it near impossible to ever have proper fellowship again with like-minded brethren, that I may not forsake the assembling of ourselves' together.

I'm torn and broken: Christ has healed me, but men refuse to accept Christ's judgement on this matter. Please help me to be able to find the proper way to overcome this sad reality I now live in

 

[JM]

The story in the op sounds a little off.

 

[Redwingfan9]

I don't think everyone gets the idea of a church which tries to do discipleship using some discipline. We expect gushy warm fuzzy stuff all the time. We expect that God loving us all the time means we can do what we want all the time. And that anything goes, at least as far as we are concerned.

The Catholic Church has some discipline. But it's rare. The PCA has a lot of discipline. Somewhere between the two is the right amount. Churches should, on occasion, excommunicate. It's Biblical. And any church that takes discipleship seriously will do it at least from time to time.

But such things do not sit well with some people. And if you don't know what to expect it will sit even less well.

You mentioned 'punishment', which I thought was odd. The whole process should be medicinal, even if the medicine tastes bad. And Reformed theology has no place for penances anyway, having jettisoned that. Penances would make sense if this was a Catholic situation, but 'punishment' sounds like, well, punishment.

I'm far to the right of the PCA, which is a denomination that really doesn't discipline much. That said, there are consequences to our sin which is why I used the term punishment. By denying a backslidden believer the means of grace (communion) for a short period he is being taught to consequences of his sin. Like in society, once the punishment is served the matter should forever be put to rest.

I'm not speaking of penance, no amount of hail mary's is going to do anything for anyone. The whole point of church discipline is to win a beliver back into the fold.

 

[Redwingfan9]

I doubt there’s anything to appeal. This person left a PCA church. I assume they removed him from the rolls, or at least made him inactive. He implied that when leaving he told the Session he was leaving and why. That might have caused them to remove or deactivate him immediately. At least based on the OP that would be reasonable. He doesn’t indicate that he had joined again or reactivated his membership when he came back after 3 years. That would require meeting with the Session, if it’s anything like the PCUSA. The OP makes it sound like that might have started, but not finished. To take communion in the PCA you must be a member in good standing of an acceptable church. As far as I can tell from the OP he was not and still is not.

if I’m right that he was removed from the rolls, I guess that could be appealed, but being away for three years is probably enough, no to mention telling the elders he was leaving. Furthermore, since then he has attended Catholic and Orthodox churches, which complicates any appeal.

it doesn’t sound like he’s excommunicated so much as not a member. After that history any conservative reformed churcH would want to be sure he’s back for real before accepting him as a member.

if my guesses are right, the church failed to be clear about what was going on, but might not have acted unreasonably.

if he now wants to be part of a Reformed Church, he will have to meet with the elders, even in the PCUSA. With this history, they will want to make sure he is back for real. The PCUSA would probably take him at his word, but would require meeting with the pastor and a new member class. The big difference is that we have open communion, so he could participate before that process is finished.

I suppose they could have simply removed him from the membership rolls. I have historically been in more conservative churches which don't simply remove people who leave the church entirely. They start church discipline against them and ultimately excommunicate. On second thought, I don't see the PCA doing that. If they have semi-closed communion then the OP had no business expecting communion when he isn't a member of a church.

All of that said, the situation could have been handled better by the elders. It should have been explained to him why he wasn't to receive communion beforehand.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I'm far to the right of the PCA, which is a denomination that really doesn't discipline much.

Far to the right of the PCUSA is easy. Far to the right of the PCA seems harder.

That said, there are consequences to our sin which is why I used the term punishment.

Most Protestants say that ALL consequences of sin are done away with by the sacrificial death of Jesus. 'He paid it all', is what I typically hear. The term punishment goes back to Tertullian, the first Latin writer in the Church ca 200 AD. His term was 'poena', the stuff that was left over when the guilt of sin was paid by the sacrificial death of Jesus. It is usually translated as 'punishment' but is more the requirement to pay a debt as Tertullian and Christians following his initial use of the term applied it. That something still needed to be made right. Something one could do penances for to rectify things. Generally this whole thought is anathema to Protestants.

By denying a backslidden believer the means of grace (communion) for a short period he is being taught to consequences of his sin.

I agree that sin has consequences, but I don't get the 'teach him a lesson' approach. It should be 'restorative justice'. What you described sounds like it might be considered punitive.

Like in society, once the punishment is served the matter should forever be put to rest.

And yet quite different in that the guilt of sin is removed by Jesus. Apples and oranges.

I'm not speaking of penance, no amount of hail mary's is going to do anything for anyone.

Well of course you are opposed to anything Catholic. What's new?

The whole point of church discipline is to win a believer back into the fold.

One would hope. In the case of the OP it looks like a fail.

 

[hedrick]

I suppose they could have simply removed him from the membership rolls. I have historically been in more conservative churches which don't simply remove people who leave the church entirely. They start church discipline against them and ultimately excommunicate. On second thought, I don't see the PCA doing that. If they have semi-closed communion then the OP had no business expecting communion when he isn't a member of a church.

All of that said, the situation could have been handled better by the elders. It should have been explained to him why he wasn't to receive communion beforehand.

It makes no sense to discipline a non member.

 

[John stones]

This has haunted me a long time, and I can't think of any way to set everything back to normal. Bear with me through the story:

I was raised Southern Baptist, and at 17 started learning theology to learn why I was Baptist and not another denomination. I eventually ended up accepting Reformed Theology as Scriptural and joined a small PCA church that seemed really traditionally Presbyterian. I was there for 3 years faithfully following everything they taught, but ended up falling away at 20 due to the New Age movement. I was completely unprepared to be able to defend myself against it's deceptive misinterpretations of Holy Scripture, and left the church and was honest with the elders about why I was leaving, as I didn't want to be secretive or get others under that church to follow my beliefs at the time.

3 years later, I came back to my senses and was truly repentant, and cut out all the evil from my life. I was so happy to return home, and likened it to the Prodigal Son returning home, with the father joyfully accepting his son back. That's not at all what happened: I was under discipline for failure to uphold my vows, and barred from communion. Not a single person at the church wanted to be seen near me, and the elders blamed me for their son falling into New Age ideas (he left it behind quickly, but the bitterness was still there). I didn't cause it, and didn't advocate anyone to accept anything I believed: I kept it to myself and the elders.

After a few weeks there with the most uncomfortable and stilted reception they gave communion, and this is when they told me about be barred from communion: the elder told me, then passed over me. I left the church immediately and balled my eyes out. I knew Jesus had forgiven me, and He longed for me to be forgiven here too. I liken it to the Adulterous Woman 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.' I left and never went back, and never could join a Reformed or Presbyterian Church again because they will not accept my membership because of my old church.

I then began to see Protestantism itself as inherently flawed. This was a heart-wrenching time in my life, and I was alone and confused about what to do. I started to study church history, read the saints, and joined a Catholic RCIA class (Roman Catholic Initiation for Adults). They welcomed me lovingly and seemed more Christlike in my eyes than my Presbyterian Church was. I didn't finish the RCIA class because I started to realize Catholicism is no longer what once was: they betrayed their own traditions for postmodernism, and were told to submit to an antichrist in Pope Francis, and I just couldn't do it.

I left for Eastern Orthodoxy, and nearly finished the conversion process, and left after I realized that all the traditions the Orthodox held were not Scriptural, but stunk of paganism. I became a member of no church but Christ's body, but held to my Reformed convictions yet again. I want to go to a faithful church again, but I would never be able to partake of communion again unless I went to a non-Reformed church, and I refuse to believe that what that former church did was charitible, loving, or Christlike, I love, cherish, and make Christ the center and end of my life, finding forgiveness in Him, but man-made traditions make it near impossible to ever have proper fellowship again with like-minded brethren, that I may not forsake the assembling of ourselves' together.

I'm torn and broken: Christ has healed me, but men refuse to accept Christ's judgement on this matter. Please help me to be able to find the proper way to overcome this sad reality I now live in

Hey man I feel your struggle. I grew up in the pca and am reformed. Honestly brother if they are still doing this after you repented they are in sin. Reformed people are so fing proud it makes me sick, really reformed doctrine should lead you to deep humility but instead it leads most of them to pride. I see most of them as fake Christian's anyways they put on a good face on Sunday but that's about it and when someone confesses their sins they ostracized them. It's sick. Don't go there anymore. Just find a nice biblical church that truly loves u man and you'd be surprised at how much more reformed they are than the reformed people. The Bible isn't about how smart u r it's about God's love and His glory . I haven't had good experiences with any reformed denomination honestly but I went to a baptist church and the minister was boosting about his doctorate in whatever and they wanted me to get rebaptized. Anyways pm me I'd you want to talk more or have a phone call.

J

 

[GaveMeJoy]

I am not Orthodox for many reasons, but theosis, while it sounds really strange, isn't one of those reasons. I remember when I first heard of it I thought it was pretty Mormon. But when I understood it in the context of adoption it began to make sense. The history of thinking on theosis goes back to Fathers who were instrumental in formulating the Trinity. For example, Athanasius. It's not some recent Orthodox invention. It's actually Biblical if you accept 2Peter 1:3-4. We aren't God. We will never become God. But we are adopted into the family in some limited but real way.

If you speak with an orthodox priest regarding theosis as I regularly do (my close friend is a priest) you will understand it is a process by which a person’s works, coupled with their membership in an orthodox parish (“the one true church”) grant that person access to Christ’s blood and saving sacrifice. There is no such thing as being “saved” from your sins in orthodoxy. It’s a process and you access salvation through a process meted out by the church establishment.