Presbyterian With No Way to Join Reformed Fellowship

[PloverWing]

I wasn't exocommunicated, I was under discipline

This process of formal discipline is itself part of the church structure. Some churches have a formal discipline process like this, and others don't (or, they technically have it but almost never exercise it). I think this is a question in itself: Do you want to belong to a church with a formal discipline process? If you want to belong to a conservative church like the PCA where beliefs and practices are enforced by a formal process, then this is going to be part of the package. If that's what you want, then I think you need to go back to the church leaders and work with them to see what is necessary to be reconciled to the church.

Maybe you don't want that, and you'd rather be part of a place that allows its members more freedom, with beliefs and practices being mostly between the individual and God, without formal enforcement. If that's what you want, then you probably have to be willing to worship alongside people who disagree with you, exactly because there is no disciplinary enforcement.

Either model can work. Which are you looking for: a church with, or without, a practice of formal discipline of its members?

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

But disciplined for what?

That’s a question you should ask the elders. You need to know why you are under discipline in order to know how you are to get back in good standing. When you do ask, I suggest listening to their answer and not talking back. You’ll get on better terms with them that way.

 

[chevyontheriver]

But disciplined for what? Being young and naive and a victim of people that twisted the Scripture? I didn't leave my faith in Jesus or Scripture, I was deceived by people that twisted who Jesus is and what Scripture means.

Well, you actually have bigger problems now that you flirted with Catholicism and then with Orthodoxy. They aren't going to like either of those moves one bit.

 

[PaulCyp1]

So you finally found your way to the one Church Jesus Christ founded for you, to which He promised the fullness of God's truth until the end of time, yet were chased away from it. Who do you suppose might have been behind that? You say you want to be Christian, yet you reject the earthly leader to whom Jesus promised "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Sad. I will pray for you that your eyes and your heart may be opened to God's guidance.

 

[GaveMeJoy]

This has haunted me a long time, and I can't think of any way to set everything back to normal. Bear with me through the story:

I was raised Southern Baptist, and at 17 started learning theology to learn why I was Baptist and not another denomination. I eventually ended up accepting Reformed Theology as Scriptural and joined a small PCA church that seemed really traditionally Presbyterian. I was there for 3 years faithfully following everything they taught, but ended up falling away at 20 due to the New Age movement. I was completely unprepared to be able to defend myself against it's deceptive misinterpretations of Holy Scripture, and left the church and was honest with the elders about why I was leaving, as I didn't want to be secretive or get others under that church to follow my beliefs at the time.

3 years later, I came back to my senses and was truly repentant, and cut out all the evil from my life. I was so happy to return home, and likened it to the Prodigal Son returning home, with the father joyfully accepting his son back. That's not at all what happened: I was under discipline for failure to uphold my vows, and barred from communion. Not a single person at the church wanted to be seen near me, and the elders blamed me for their son falling into New Age ideas (he left it behind quickly, but the bitterness was still there). I didn't cause it, and didn't advocate anyone to accept anything I believed: I kept it to myself and the elders.

After a few weeks there with the most uncomfortable and stilted reception they gave communion, and this is when they told me about be barred from communion: the elder told me, then passed over me. I left the church immediately and balled my eyes out. I knew Jesus had forgiven me, and He longed for me to be forgiven here too. I liken it to the Adulterous Woman 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.' I left and never went back, and never could join a Reformed or Presbyterian Church again because they will not accept my membership because of my old church.

I then began to see Protestantism itself as inherently flawed. This was a heart-wrenching time in my life, and I was alone and confused about what to do. I started to study church history, read the saints, and joined a Catholic RCIA class (Roman Catholic Initiation for Adults). They welcomed me lovingly and seemed more Christlike in my eyes than my Presbyterian Church was. I didn't finish the RCIA class because I started to realize Catholicism is no longer what once was: they betrayed their own traditions for postmodernism, and were told to submit to an antichrist in Pope Francis, and I just couldn't do it.

I left for Eastern Orthodoxy, and nearly finished the conversion process, and left after I realized that all the traditions the Orthodox held were not Scriptural, but stunk of paganism. I became a member of no church but Christ's body, but held to my Reformed convictions yet again. I want to go to a faithful church again, but I would never be able to partake of communion again unless I went to a non-Reformed church, and I refuse to believe that what that former church did was charitible, loving, or Christlike, I love, cherish, and make Christ the center and end of my life, finding forgiveness in Him, but man-made traditions make it near impossible to ever have proper fellowship again with like-minded brethren, that I may not forsake the assembling of ourselves' together.

I'm torn and broken: Christ has healed me, but men refuse to accept Christ's judgement on this matter. Please help me to be able to find the proper way to overcome this sad reality I now live in

I’m glad you escaped Orthodox Church. They snatch up intellectuals in theological flux.

you should be able to have a straightforward discussion with the elders, there is no scriptural basis for barring you from communion after you have repented. That would be of the devil.

 

[Sheep77]

I’m glad you escaped Orthodox Church. They snatch up intellectuals in theological flux.

you should be able to have a straightforward discussion with the elders, there is no scriptural basis for barring you from communion after you have repented. That would be of the devil.

That's absolutely true: there are so many well-meaning people caught there, but the doctrine of theosis and method of attaining it are 1:1 with New Age 'Christ Consciousness': don't think. They are practically practicing paganism

 

[chevyontheriver]

That's absolutely true: there are so many well-meaning people caught there, but the doctrine of theosis and method of attaining it are 1:1 with New Age 'Christ Consciousness': don't think. They are practically practicing paganism

I am not Orthodox for many reasons, but theosis, while it sounds really strange, isn't one of those reasons. I remember when I first heard of it I thought it was pretty Mormon. But when I understood it in the context of adoption it began to make sense. The history of thinking on theosis goes back to Fathers who were instrumental in formulating the Trinity. For example, Athanasius. It's not some recent Orthodox invention. It's actually Biblical if you accept 2Peter 1:3-4. We aren't God. We will never become God. But we are adopted into the family in some limited but real way.

 

[HatGuy]

This has haunted me a long time, and I can't think of any way to set everything back to normal. Bear with me through the story:

I was raised Southern Baptist, and at 17 started learning theology to learn why I was Baptist and not another denomination. I eventually ended up accepting Reformed Theology as Scriptural and joined a small PCA church that seemed really traditionally Presbyterian. I was there for 3 years faithfully following everything they taught, but ended up falling away at 20 due to the New Age movement. I was completely unprepared to be able to defend myself against it's deceptive misinterpretations of Holy Scripture, and left the church and was honest with the elders about why I was leaving, as I didn't want to be secretive or get others under that church to follow my beliefs at the time.

3 years later, I came back to my senses and was truly repentant, and cut out all the evil from my life. I was so happy to return home, and likened it to the Prodigal Son returning home, with the father joyfully accepting his son back. That's not at all what happened: I was under discipline for failure to uphold my vows, and barred from communion. Not a single person at the church wanted to be seen near me, and the elders blamed me for their son falling into New Age ideas (he left it behind quickly, but the bitterness was still there). I didn't cause it, and didn't advocate anyone to accept anything I believed: I kept it to myself and the elders.

After a few weeks there with the most uncomfortable and stilted reception they gave communion, and this is when they told me about be barred from communion: the elder told me, then passed over me. I left the church immediately and balled my eyes out. I knew Jesus had forgiven me, and He longed for me to be forgiven here too. I liken it to the Adulterous Woman 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.' I left and never went back, and never could join a Reformed or Presbyterian Church again because they will not accept my membership because of my old church.

I then began to see Protestantism itself as inherently flawed. This was a heart-wrenching time in my life, and I was alone and confused about what to do. I started to study church history, read the saints, and joined a Catholic RCIA class (Roman Catholic Initiation for Adults). They welcomed me lovingly and seemed more Christlike in my eyes than my Presbyterian Church was. I didn't finish the RCIA class because I started to realize Catholicism is no longer what once was: they betrayed their own traditions for postmodernism, and were told to submit to an antichrist in Pope Francis, and I just couldn't do it.

I left for Eastern Orthodoxy, and nearly finished the conversion process, and left after I realized that all the traditions the Orthodox held were not Scriptural, but stunk of paganism. I became a member of no church but Christ's body, but held to my Reformed convictions yet again. I want to go to a faithful church again, but I would never be able to partake of communion again unless I went to a non-Reformed church, and I refuse to believe that what that former church did was charitible, loving, or Christlike, I love, cherish, and make Christ the center and end of my life, finding forgiveness in Him, but man-made traditions make it near impossible to ever have proper fellowship again with like-minded brethren, that I may not forsake the assembling of ourselves' together.

I'm torn and broken: Christ has healed me, but men refuse to accept Christ's judgement on this matter. Please help me to be able to find the proper way to overcome this sad reality I now live in

I'm not a Lutheran formally but I can say that I think you should give them a try. (LCMS Lutheran, not ELCA). They preach forgiveness the best, have historical roots, and share some beliefs with the Reformed. I am pretty sure you'll find what you're looking for.

 

[Radagast]

I'm not a Lutheran formally but I can say that I think you should give them a try. (LCMS Lutheran, not ELCA)

It's true that LCMS is the "next-best thing" for anyone of a conservative Presbyterian/Reformed bent.

But the LCMS will also make demands, of one kind or another, on its members. Perhaps one of the LCMS people here on CF could comment.

 

[Hazelelponi]

...

 

[chilehed]

After a few weeks there with the most uncomfortable and stilted reception they gave communion, and this is when they told me about be barred from communion: the elder told me, then passed over me.

As a former Presbyterian, this strikes me as being very, very bizarre. I've never heard of anything like it.

 

[Radagast]

As a former Presbyterian, this strikes me as being very, very bizarre. I've never heard of anything like it.

Not really.

He left during in ongoing disciplinary process. He would, I'm guessing, have been excommunicated in absentia.

In both Presbyterian and Catholic tradition, to be excommunicated is to be denied communion.

Excommunication is not automatically lifted simply as a result of resuming church attendance.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I'm not a Lutheran formally but I can say that I think you should give them a try. (LCMS Lutheran, not ELCA). They preach forgiveness the best, have historical roots, and share some beliefs with the Reformed. I am pretty sure you'll find what you're looking for.

If I couldn't be Catholic I would attend LCMS.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Not really.

He left during in ongoing disciplinary process. He would, I'm guessing, have been excommunicated in absentia.

The PCA merged a while back with the RPCES, which was also conservative but they had a functional canon law system rather than just winging it. Canon law regulates how things get done so you don't have arbitrariness. The RPCES would never have put anyone on double secret probation. They would have made things abundantly clear. Perhaps severe but clear. Which is what I don't understand about this case. It's clear as mud. One might be sentenced in absentia but at least they should be told of it.

There is an aspect of Catholic canon law that allows for automatic excommunication. I don't like the automatic part and neither do some prominent canon lawyers. But, for example, a bishop who consecrates another bishop without Vatican approval is automatically excommunicated. That happened with archbishop Lefebvre about 30 years ago. He should have had a canon law trial instead. Perhaps the OP got himself automatically excommunicated. Without knowing about it. And they just presumed he knew all of the details.

In both Presbyterian and Catholic tradition, to be excommunicated is to be denied communion.

Excommunication is not automatically lifted simply as a result of resuming church attendance.

Right, but it's hard to know if you are excommunicated if nobody actually spells it out for you. So hard to know that you have to go to court to get reinstated if you don't know.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[Radagast]

One might be sentenced in absentia but at least they should be told of it.

The general understanding, as I understand it, seems to be that, by walking away during the church discipline process, people have effectively excommunicated themselves.

Right, but it's hard to know if you are excommunicated if nobody actually spells it out for you.

Perhaps. But I find it strange that the OP, having left a church during a disciplinary process, simply walked back in the door years later without asking anybody what it would take to return to membership.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The general understanding, as I understand it, seems to be that, by walking away during the church discipline process, people have effectively excommunicated themselves.

Perhaps. But I find it strange that the OP, having left a church during a disciplinary process, simply walked back in the door years later without asking anybody what it would take to return to membership.

Not everybody gets legal systems and all of the rules and regulations those systems impose on us. We presume that everyone will be nice. We don't expect procedures. So I get it how he could have drifted away and expected to be able to come back without a lengthy unexcommunication process. I also think he is presuming the same niceness will apply to him with his flirtation with the Catholics and the Orthodox. My experience with the RPCES is that will not go unnoticed.

What should have happened? They should have explained what would happen to him. They should not have presumed that he understood their perspective.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Christ has healed me, but men refuse to accept Christ's judgement on this matter.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth said many will come in His name but He will not know them. It is good you know the truth that He has healed you. This is all you need. Eventually you will find a congregation who spreads the "Good News" and most importantly, has a leadership filled with the Holy Spirit rather than doctrines of men.
Be blessed and stay healthy!

 

[Radagast]

What should have happened? They should have explained what would happen to him. They should not have presumed that he understood their perspective.

I'd be willing to bet that, during the initial disciplinary process, they did.

 

[Albion]

It's true that LCMS is the "next-best thing" for anyone of a conservative Presbyterian/Reformed bent.

I'd suggest WELS instead. And there are the Reformed Baptists, too, whom somebody already mentioned.

 

[Pioneer3mm]

This has haunted me a long time, and I can't think of any way to set everything back to normal. Bear with me through the story:

I was raised Southern Baptist, and started learning theology to learn why I was Baptist and not another denomination. I eventually ended up accepting Reformed Theology as Scriptural and joined a small PCA church that seemed really traditionally Presbyterian. I was there for 3 years faithfully following everything they taught, but ended up falling away at 20 due to the New Age movement. I was completely unprepared to be able to defend myself against it's deceptive misinterpretations of Holy Scripture, and left the church and was honest with the elders about why I was leaving, as I didn't want to be secretive or get others under that church to follow my beliefs at the time.

3 years later, I came back to my senses and was truly repentant, and cut out all the evil from my life. I was so happy to return home, and likened it to the Prodigal Son returning home, with the father joyfully accepting his son back. That's not at all what happened: I was under discipline for failure to uphold my vows, and barred from communion. Not a single person at the church wanted to be seen near me, and the elders blamed me for their son falling into New Age ideas (he left it behind quickly, but the bitterness was still there). I didn't cause it, and didn't advocate anyone to accept anything I believed: I kept it to myself and the elders.

After a few weeks there with the most uncomfortable and stilted reception they gave communion, and this is when they told me about be barred from communion: the elder told me, then passed over me. I left the church immediately and balled my eyes out. I knew Jesus had forgiven me, and He longed for me to be forgiven here too. I liken it to the Adulterous Woman 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone.' I left and never went back, and never could join a Reformed or Presbyterian Church again because they will not accept my membership because of my old church.

I then began to see Protestantism itself as inherently flawed. This was a heart-wrenching time in my life, and I was alone and confused about what to do. I started to study church history, read the saints, and joined a Catholic RCIA class (Roman Catholic Initiation for Adults). They welcomed me lovingly and seemed more Christlike in my eyes than my Presbyterian Church was. I didn't finish the RCIA class because I started to realize Catholicism is no longer what once was: they betrayed their own traditions for postmodernism, and were told to submit to an antichrist in Pope Francis, and I just couldn't do it.

I left for Eastern Orthodoxy, and nearly finished the conversion process, and left after I realized that all the traditions the Orthodox held were not Scriptural, but stunk of paganism. I became a member of no church but Christ's body, but held to my Reformed convictions yet again. I want to go to a faithful church again, but I would never be able to partake of communion again unless I went to a non-Reformed church, and I refuse to believe that what that former church did was charitible, loving, or Christlike, I love, cherish, and make Christ the center and end of my life, finding forgiveness in Him, but man-made traditions make it near impossible to ever have proper fellowship again with like-minded brethren, that I may not forsake the assembling of ourselves' together.

I'm torn and broken: Christ has healed me, but men refuse to accept Christ's judgement on this matter. Please help me to be able to find the proper way to overcome this sad reality I now live in

It seems that you got good advice/suggestions.. from other posts here.
- Suggestions for other churches, theological issues, etc..
---
My advice to you..
- Maybe you need to focus on 'personal renewal / restoration.'
---
Many people are disappointed / discouraged in churches.. nowadays.
- in any denomination / churches..
---
I was involved in several churches during my spiritual journey..from 1970's.
---
Two of those were presbyterian.
PCUSA & PCA
- I did not have issues / problems that you mentioned.
- But I believe your story. It can happen..
---
More of His grace and comfort to you..
- In the midst of difficult time.