Presbyterian teaches if you sin and die unrepentant you go to heaven

[Turkleton]

Eph. 2:8-10 "8For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God--9not by works, lest any man should boast.10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforehand ordained, that we should walk in them."

Here Paul excludes works as essential to salvation. Nothing we can do can save us...that is the whole point of grace, mercy, and Christ's ultimate sacrifice. When James says that "faith without works is dead" he is saying that faith produces good works like a tree produces fruit. Christ said that a tree is known by its fruit. The good fruit is evidence of a live tree just as good works are the evidence of our faith and without them it is obvious that we don't have faith.

If you compare this to the parallel passages in Scripture, he is speaking of "works of the Torah." Works of the Torah being circumcision, dietary laws, etc (which early Christian Jews who thought that following the law of the Torah was necessary for salvation). In Rom 3:28, St. Paul teaches that "man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Torah."

He is not speaking against the efficacy of "good works", which is God working in man.

 

[AnswersforChrist]

Well, the church I go to does have good works even though their gospel sharing may not be perfect.I mean its a valid arguement to say that if a church does teaches everything biblical yet does not show any love towards anyone its worse than the other way around. Ive been in churches that show alot less love then this present church. I think im going to stay put at where I am.

 

[papist1]

True, my brother in law is a presbyterian minister. I asked him, if I am a believer and in christ and I murder someone, and do not have sorrow or am unrepentant, will i go to heaven?

He said YES, absolutely!

I said, what if that same "Christian believer" killed all of your four children?

He didn't answer.


peace, papist

 

[JimfromOhio]

I have a question. I go to this presbyterian church and while they say they don't recommend that anyone commit a sin, they say that since we accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior if we commit a sin such as murder, then rape etc and die unrepentant we would still be saved. Is this biblical?

I was a member of a Presbyterian church for about a year and followed Reformed theology for number of years, I never heard of such from any Reformed theologists. However, a person who claimed to be a Christian and murders someone, never repented for murdering is very likely was never a Christian in the first place. So, maybe a person was never saved in the first place. Christians will never be lost or disowned by God. A Christian may be confused by false doctrines but still a heir of God's blessing. Jesus is my Shephard who keeps me safe, John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand." How can anyone who saved get snatched out of His hand and lose salvation unless a person is not saved in the first place?

All of us are Christians and we are forgiven by His Grace. Our bodies are still carrying sin and will die in sin (flesh). Through Christ in our lives, in sanctification God has to deal with us on the death side as well as on the life side. The struggle begins. "If any man come to Me and hate not his own life, he cannot be My disciple." Being sanctified means “to be separated from sin”. The key to sanctification then, is to know and obey the truth which is the Word of God in our hearts. When we got saved, we were justified which is "declared righteous". Justification cannot be separated from sanctification. We are declared righteous in justification, and then the process of making us righteous begins to function in this sinful world.

 

[papist1]

I was a member of a Presbyterian church for about a year and followed Reformed theology for number of years, I never heard of such from any Reformed theologists. However, a person who claimed to be a Christian and murders someone, never repented for murdering is very likely was never a Christian in the first place. So, maybe a person was never saved in the first place. Christians will never be lost or disowned by God. A Christian may be confused by false doctrines but still a heir of God's blessing. Jesus is my Shephard who keeps me safe, John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand." How can anyone who saved get snatched out of His hand and lose salvation unless a person is not saved in the first place?

All of us are Christians and we are forgiven by His Grace. Our bodies are still carrying sin and will die in sin (flesh). Through Christ in our lives, in sanctification God has to deal with us on the death side as well as on the life side. The struggle begins. "If any man come to Me and hate not his own life, he cannot be My disciple." Being sanctified means “to be separated from sin”. The key to sanctification then, is to know and obey the truth which is the Word of God in our hearts. When we got saved, we were justified which is "declared righteous". Justification cannot be separated from sanctification. We are declared righteous in justification, and then the process of making us righteous begins to function in this sinful world.

To say a Christian cannot turn from God and murder is rediculous, a circular argument, and something you would never be qualified to judge since God is the only knower of the human heart and will make all things known on that day(judgement). God will judge you and I for every word and deed, period.

You really need to read the sciptures more and look at what the disciples of the apostles believed to get a better idea of how they interpreted and lived out what is written in scripture.

peace, papist

 

[JimfromOhio]

To say a Christian cannot turn from God and murder is rediculous, a circular argument, and something you would never be qualified to judge since God is the only knower of the human heart and will make all things known on that day(judgement). God will judge you and I for every word and deed, period.

You really need to read the sciptures more and look at what the disciples of the apostles believed to get a better idea of how they interpreted and lived out what is written in scripture.

peace, papist

If its sound foolish to you, I must have hit the heart of the issue.

That's why I am not a Catholic and I don't work for my salvation or use indulgence. The doctrine of justification by faith alone would have automatically ended the sale of indulgences and other abuses of ecclesiastical power. We are to judge through, to see through to the truth, to truly evaluate something what what we are hearing is biblical or not.

Doctrines sounds very good and simple but spiritual life is not so simple. If a Christian don't feel the conviction and didn't have the motivation to change from "within", then we should be concerned whether we are truly saved or not. "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." The condition of the heart determines how receptive a person is to God's commandments.

Many Christians seem to understand the concept of being saved by grace, but they have missed the concept of being sustained by grace. James D. Mallory, Jr.

 

[Epiphoskei]

The position this presbyterian is teaching is being reinterpreted through a quasi-Catholic understanding of repentance and of salvation. Of course it doesn't make sense. It's almost certainly not actually his view.

God works inside the Christian (Philippians 2:13) bringing about repentance. Lack of that fruit may mean that one lacks God within them, but we are also sinful people, and if one must actively repent of his every sin, there isn't a human on earth who will be saved. We can't even remember all our sins to confess them. But God brings the Christian to a place wherein he would be willing to repent if he were shown his sin.

The Reformed teaching of the Perseverence of the Saints comes down very harshly against those who think they can sin without remorse and still be saved. It simply doesn't teach that every individual wrongdoing must be expiated through a religious ritual.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

The position this presbyterian is teaching is being reinterpreted through a quasi-Catholic understanding of repentance and of salvation. Of course it doesn't make sense. It's almost certainly not actually his view.

God works inside the Christian (Philippians 2:13) bringing about repentance. Lack of that fruit may mean that one lacks God within them, but we are also sinful people, and if one must actively repent of his every sin, there isn't a human on earth who will be saved. We can't even remember all our sins to confess them. But God brings the Christian to a place wherein he would be willing to repent if he were shown his sin.

The Reformed teaching of the Perseverence of the Saints comes down very harshly against those who think they can sin without remorse and still be saved. It simply doesn't teach that every individual wrongdoing must be expiated through a religious ritual.

Well said!

 

[papist1]

If its sound foolish to you, I must have hit the heart of the issue.

That's why I am not a Catholic and I don't work for my salvation or use indulgence. The doctrine of justification by faith alone would have automatically ended the sale of indulgences and other abuses of ecclesiastical power. We are to judge through, to see through to the truth, to truly evaluate something what what we are hearing is biblical or not.

Doctrines sounds very good and simple but spiritual life is not so simple. If a Christian don't feel the conviction and didn't have the motivation to change from "within", then we should be concerned whether we are truly saved or not. "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit." The condition of the heart determines how receptive a person is to God's commandments.

Many Christians seem to understand the concept of being saved by grace, but they have missed the concept of being sustained by grace. James D. Mallory, Jr.

Yes, God forbid you would do what scripture actually tels you to do, which is work out your salvation with fear and trembling, or endure til the end and you shall be saved, as Jesus himself said.

God forbid you actually are obedient to God and His Word, Jesus Christ.


my point exactly, thank you for that vindication.

peace, papist

 

[JimfromOhio]

Yes, God forbid you would do what scripture actually tels you to do, which is work out your salvation with fear and trembling, or endure til the end and you shall be saved, as Jesus himself said.

God forbid you actually are obedient to God and His Word, Jesus Christ.


my point exactly, thank you for that vindication.

peace, papist

James 2:14-26 "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, 'You have faith; I have deeds.' Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."

True faith begins in humility and in brokenness and in sorrow and in repentance and in poverty in spirit and it ends in obedience and endurance. Saving faith is like that of the little child, if you don't come to Me, Jesus said in Matthew 18:4, as a little child, you can't enter My Kingdom. It's humble, obedient, permanent and it's a gift from God.

 

[Epiphoskei]

Yes, God forbid you would do what scripture actually tels you to do, which is work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling because it is God who is at work within you both to will and to work.

God within you makes repentance, not the other way around.

 

[Hairy Tic]

It isn't Biblical, although to be fair to Calvinism, I don't think they are that extent OSAS. Perhaps some of its soteriological adherents are, but I think Calvin would say that a murderer needs to repent or else he or she's in deep doo-doo.

## It's a revolting doctrine - & certainly not Calvinist. It's antinomian, through and through, therefore, utterly contradictory to Calvinism. One of the best books on the matter to read is "The Sinfulness of Sin", by Ralph Venning (1621-74), who was a Puritan preacher and author. Anyone thinks that sin is a minor detail should read that book, ASAP.

A sample:

The several parts of the Gospel are against sin, as we shall show.

1. The doctrinal part of the Gospel. This is the part which flesh and blood is inclined to interpret as an encouragement to sin, and from which it takes occasion to abuse the Gospel:

i. The doctrine of God's free and abounding grace (Romans 5.20-21). St. Paul had taught that where sin abounded grace did much more abound, and that grace did reign to eternal life. From this some are apt to take occasion to sin, as if they were encouraged to do so by grace (Romans 6.1). But with what detestation and abhorrence the Apostle speaks against it! Shall we sin either because grace abounds or that grace may abound! God forbid! And when men would do evil that good might come of it, he speaks like a son of thunder, and tells them that their damnation is just (Romans 3.8). St. Jude writes an epistle expressly against such people as turn the grace of God into wantonness, thus perverting the end of grace. He calls them ungodly men, and men ordained to this condemnation (Jude 4).


ii. The doctrine of redemption by the blood and death of Jesus Christ. Christ Jesus died for our sins, and some wicked wretches are apt to conclude that they may live in sin because Christ has died for sin. But he died for sin that we might die to sin (Romans 6). He gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify us to himself (Titus 2.14). The death of Christ calls for us to die to sin and to live to him that died for us (2 Corinthians 5.15)....

• THE PLAGUE OF PLAGUES, WITNESSES AGAINST SIN, by Ralph Venning

It is a truly outstanding book. Jesus Christ never ever said, "Go, and sin on more" - He did say, "Go, and sin no more". A Gospel that approves sin, tramples the Cross underfoot, & spits on the Blood of Christ. Not one word in the entire NT supports a doctrine of the allowableness or trivialness of sin: as Venning shows, everything - even sin, Hell, and the devil - witnesses against sin. He is particularly good on the Death of Christ, & how its details show the sinfulness of sin.

A group whom this wonderful book might harm rather than help are those who suffer from scrupulosity - otherwise, the more Christians who read it, the better

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

## It's a revolting doctrine - & certainly not Calvinist. It's antinomian, through and through, therefore, utterly contradictory to Calvinism. One of the best books on the matter to read is "The Sinfulness of Sin", by Ralph Venning (1621-74), who was a Puritan preacher and author. Anyone thinks that sin is a minor detail should read that book, ASAP.

A sample:

The several parts of the Gospel are against sin, as we shall show.

1. The doctrinal part of the Gospel. This is the part which flesh and blood is inclined to interpret as an encouragement to sin, and from which it takes occasion to abuse the Gospel:

i. The doctrine of God's free and abounding grace (Romans 5.20-21). St. Paul had taught that where sin abounded grace did much more abound, and that grace did reign to eternal life. From this some are apt to take occasion to sin, as if they were encouraged to do so by grace (Romans 6.1). But with what detestation and abhorrence the Apostle speaks against it! Shall we sin either because grace abounds or that grace may abound! God forbid! And when men would do evil that good might come of it, he speaks like a son of thunder, and tells them that their damnation is just (Romans 3.8). St. Jude writes an epistle expressly against such people as turn the grace of God into wantonness, thus perverting the end of grace. He calls them ungodly men, and men ordained to this condemnation (Jude 4).



ii. The doctrine of redemption by the blood and death of Jesus Christ. Christ Jesus died for our sins, and some wicked wretches are apt to conclude that they may live in sin because Christ has died for sin. But he died for sin that we might die to sin (Romans 6). He gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify us to himself (Titus 2.14). The death of Christ calls for us to die to sin and to live to him that died for us (2 Corinthians 5.15)....

• THE PLAGUE OF PLAGUES, WITNESSES AGAINST SIN, by Ralph Venning

It is a truly outstanding book. Jesus Christ never ever said, "Go, and sin on more" - He did say, "Go, and sin no more". A Gospel that approves sin, tramples the Cross underfoot, & spits on the Blood of Christ. Not one word in the entire NT supports a doctrine of the allowableness or trivialness of sin: as Venning shows, everything - even sin, Hell, and the devil - witnesses against sin. He is particularly good on the Death of Christ, & how its details show the sinfulness of sin.

A group whom this wonderful book might harm rather than help are those who suffer from scrupulosity - otherwise, the more Christians who read it, the better

GREAT POST!

 

[JCFantasy23]

I have a question. I go to this presbyterian church and while they say they don't recommend that anyone commit a sin, they say that since we accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior if we commit a sin such as murder, then rape etc and die unrepentant we would still be saved. Is this biblical?

Here's how I see it: Everyone sins, every day. None of us are perfect and we can't fix that here on Earth. It depends on what was in your heart when you died. I doubt most people who die suddenly have repented of their sins for that day, but I do not think they are condemned if they are saved and simply have not asked for forgiveness that particular day just yet. So yes, I agree with your church.

 

[Forscher]

I have a question. I go to this presbyterian church and while they say they don't recommend that anyone commit a sin, they say that since we accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior if we commit a sin such as murder, then rape etc and die unrepentant we would still be saved. Is this biblical?

I believe that perseverance of the saints is biblical; but the notion you stated there is not. This notion comes from a false understanding of conversion. The true converts are born again buy the Holy Spirit, through the message Gospel. When we are born again, of course we still fall in sin, while we are still in our flesh. But then there is a continuous growth done by the Holy Spirit, again through the Gospel and the Sacraments, keeping us safe from falling. We will dwell ourselves in Christ, in such that we will not fall. We sin, but we continuously repent. It's a sign of true Christian.

Now consider yourself could a repenting Christian do such thing as premeditated murder, and rape? People lie, cheat, gossip; but murder and rape???? Some common sense will do the justice.

 

[bliz]

Now consider yourself could a repenting Christian do such thing as premeditated murder, and rape? People lie, cheat, gossip; but murder and rape???? Some common sense will do the justice.

So, are some sins more heinous than others? Are you declaring that Christians won't or can't do some sins? I expect to see both Moses and David in heaven, and yet they are both murderers, and David premeditated about his murder a lot.

Or is God unable to forgive certain sins? Gossip can be covered by the blood of the Lamb, but rape is out of the question? Is God forgiveness not powerful enough for some sins?

You greatly underestimate the depravity of all sin, and the depth and breadth of God's forgiveness.

 

[Forscher]

So, are some sins more heinous than others? Are you declaring that Christians won't or can't do some sins? I expect to see both Moses and David in heaven, and yet they are both murderers, and David premeditated about his murder a lot.

Or is God unable to forgive certain sins? Gossip can be covered by the blood of the Lamb, but rape is out of the question? Is God forgiveness not powerful enough for some sins?

You greatly underestimate the depravity of all sin, and the depth and breadth of God's forgiveness.

You missed all of my point. I am not underestimating the depravity of all sin (that's the last thing I would consider myself). Christians do sin (I clearly mentioned it on my post)! It is not what we do that make us sin, but we are sinful by nature. In case of Moses and David, did they repent at the end? Yes the did. So they are in heaven. Christians continuosly repent as they grow fully nearer to the image of Christ.

 

[Forscher]

And back to the initial question:

"I have a question. I go to this presbyterian church and while they say they don't recommend that anyone commit a sin........"

I think Jesus said: 'Sin no more!' instead of 'I do not recommend you to commit a sin'.

 

[bliz]

You missed all of my point. I am not underestimating the depravity of all sin (that's the last thing I would consider myself). Christians do sin (I clearly mentioned it on my post)! It is not what we do that make us sin, but we are sinful by nature. In case of Moses and David, did they repent at the end? Yes the did. So they are in heaven. Christians continuosly repent as they grow fully nearer to the image of Christ.

Have you remembered every sin in your life and repented for each and every one? Under you system - that which is repented of will be forgiven - if one forgets a single sin or has a poor understanding of what constitutes sin, one is damned for eternity because one will not be able to repent of every single sin. Have you managed to do that?

I agree, we should continuously repent, but my continued, 100% perfect repentance record (which is impossible) is not the source of my salvation. All of my sins, past, present and future, were forgiven at the point of salvation. I should continue to repent, and continuously strive to sin less, but my salvation is sure and kept sure by Jesus Christ, no matter how badly I do.

 

[Forscher]

Have you remembered every sin in your life and repented for each and every one? Under you system - that which is repented of will be forgiven - if one forgets a single sin or has a poor understanding of what constitutes sin, one is damned for eternity because one will not be able to repent of every single sin. Have you managed to do that?

I agree, we should continuously repent, but my continued, 100% perfect repentance record (which is impossible) is not the source of my salvation. All of my sins, past, present and future, were forgiven at the point of salvation. I should continue to repent, and continuously strive to sin less, but my salvation is sure and kept sure by Jesus Christ, no matter how badly I do.

Basically we are in agreement, but speaking with different words.


You and I agree that every Christian should be continuously repent, strive to sin less.

I agree with you that 100% repentance record is not the source of my salvation. Because we cannot. And if we are to rely on ourselves, we are not going to be saved, because it is only through Christ we are saved.

Now, with this faith (I quote yours:"I should continue to repent, and continuously strive to sin less, but my salvation is sure and kept sure by Jesus Christ, no matter how badly I do"), my question is would you murder or rape? Or, even if you say you would; would you not repent?