Presbyterian teaches if you sin and die unrepentant you go to heaven

[LiturgyInDMinor]

## It's a revolting doctrine - & certainly not Calvinist. It's antinomian, through and through, therefore, utterly contradictory to Calvinism. One of the best books on the matter to read is "The Sinfulness of Sin", by Ralph Venning (1621-74), who was a Puritan preacher and author. Anyone thinks that sin is a minor detail should read that book, ASAP.

A sample:

The several parts of the Gospel are against sin, as we shall show.

1. The doctrinal part of the Gospel. This is the part which flesh and blood is inclined to interpret as an encouragement to sin, and from which it takes occasion to abuse the Gospel:

i. The doctrine of God's free and abounding grace (Romans 5.20-21). St. Paul had taught that where sin abounded grace did much more abound, and that grace did reign to eternal life. From this some are apt to take occasion to sin, as if they were encouraged to do so by grace (Romans 6.1). But with what detestation and abhorrence the Apostle speaks against it! Shall we sin either because grace abounds or that grace may abound! God forbid! And when men would do evil that good might come of it, he speaks like a son of thunder, and tells them that their damnation is just (Romans 3.8). St. Jude writes an epistle expressly against such people as turn the grace of God into wantonness, thus perverting the end of grace. He calls them ungodly men, and men ordained to this condemnation (Jude 4).




ii. The doctrine of redemption by the blood and death of Jesus Christ. Christ Jesus died for our sins, and some wicked wretches are apt to conclude that they may live in sin because Christ has died for sin. But he died for sin that we might die to sin (Romans 6). He gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify us to himself (Titus 2.14). The death of Christ calls for us to die to sin and to live to him that died for us (2 Corinthians 5.15)....

• THE PLAGUE OF PLAGUES, WITNESSES AGAINST SIN, by Ralph Venning

It is a truly outstanding book. Jesus Christ never ever said, "Go, and sin on more" - He did say, "Go, and sin no more". A Gospel that approves sin, tramples the Cross underfoot, & spits on the Blood of Christ. Not one word in the entire NT supports a doctrine of the allowableness or trivialness of sin: as Venning shows, everything - even sin, Hell, and the devil - witnesses against sin. He is particularly good on the Death of Christ, & how its details show the sinfulness of sin.

A group whom this wonderful book might harm rather than help are those who suffer from scrupulosity - otherwise, the more Christians who read it, the better

You're right, it's certainly not Calvinist.

 

[spmedi]

Let's say your out in a boat on the ocean and you see two guys in the water. You know there are in trouble cause there isn't any other boats around, so you throw out a line to them. You see one guy fighting the waves smacking him around and all the elements to try to grab that line. The other guy you see floating face down. Which guy would you think is alive...

The same thing applies to your spiritual life. Ones struggle with sin is a thing that their assurance can be based upon. The fact that your are convicted and sorry for your sin, is a sign that the Holy Spirit is attempting to guide you in the right direction. You are His child, and if you happen to pass away at that point you would be judged as so. At the same time, you don't have a pass to sin it up. If you do something that isn't right and you don't feel that conviction and repeat... then you have failed to recognize that you no longer have a relationship with God through Christ. His spirit has been taken from you. Somewhere along the way you have chosen to ignore the Holy Spirit. You have lost the battle between flesh and spirit. My friend, I tell you that if you are indeed in that state, if you pass away you will be judged in that state.

If my statement brings that conviction upon you, please cry out and repeat. That spirit will be given back to you and your relationship to God will be restored. The Holy Spirit will guide you.

Shaun

 

[hedrick]

It doesn't sound like there's anything here that's specific to Presbyterian theology. As someone mentioned above, we don't necessarily confess every sin. First, it's not practical. And second, one thing about sin is that it affects your preceptions, so that you don't always see things as sin that are. Of course God will help with that, but still, it's unrealistic to say that we repent of every sin.

However being a Christian certainly involves repentance.

The one peculiarly Reformed idea that some seem to be alluding to is "perseverance of the saints." This isn't quite "once saved, always saved." OSAS seems to be primarily a Baptist term. For at least some Baptists it means that once you've accepted Christ, you've saved no matter how completely you fall away. The Reformed view doesn't say that. To be saved, you have to continue in the faith to the end. It's just that God's true children get his help so that they do persevere to the end. Since we can't tell who they are, this doctrine isn't a way to figure out who's going to be saved. It's really a statement about grace: that the only way we can live the Christian life is by God's grace.

The description given in the original post doesn't give enough details. It could be an acknowledgement that our salvation doesn't depend upon us being perfect in any way, even in repentance. Other posters are right to connect this to justification by faith. However it could also be that some Presbyterian preacher is somehow teaching Baptist-style OSAS.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

It doesn't sound like there's anything here that's specific to Presbyterian theology. As someone mentioned above, we don't necessarily confess every sin. First, it's not practical. And second, one thing about sin is that it affects your preceptions, so that you don't always see things as sin that are. Of course God will help with that, but still, it's unrealistic to say that we repent of every sin.

However being a Christian certainly involves repentance.

The one peculiarly Reformed idea that some seem to be alluding to is "perseverance of the saints." This isn't quite "once saved, always saved." OSAS seems to be primarily a Baptist term. For at least some Baptists it means that once you've accepted Christ, you've saved no matter how completely you fall away. The Reformed view doesn't say that. To be saved, you have to continue in the faith to the end. It's just that God's true children get his help so that they do persevere to the end. Since we can't tell who they are, this doctrine isn't a way to figure out who's going to be saved. It's really a statement about grace: that the only way we can live the Christian life is by God's grace.

The description given in the original post doesn't give enough details. It could be an acknowledgement that our salvation doesn't depend upon us being perfect in any way, even in repentance. Other posters are right to connect this to justification by faith. However it could also be that some Presbyterian preacher is somehow teaching Baptist-style OSAS.

Very good words brother.

 

[good2bBrad]

First of all any christian whose heart has been truely regenerated by the spirit in true biblical fashion and seeks and loves God, would feel guilt and remorse if they truly did somthing that is a no no. You have to be realy cold to sin and not feel bad or ask God for help. Being repentant is for the soul purpose of having a humble heart capable of receiving the Holy Ghost. That realy is a tuff question even for me. I still think that God knows the heart of the individual and will make the best judgment call. To repent means to change ones mind or to turn from. If they ask for forgiveness then they should receive it. That is if they are real spirit filled beleivers and were Christians in the first place. I think some times I am always saved. This is because I truly know the grace of God. But I also fear God and I feel bad when I sin. Paul definatly beleived that you could fall from grace. Alot of people have it backwards now a days and use the bible to support there progressive pop culture filth. They church is growing in other countries though because God is finding them worthy. Im talking about true ACTs experiances. So I think you can tread on the grace of christ and it does say that it is far better for the ones who hold fast than the ones who knew the way of righteousness and then left that path "paraphrased."

 

[CALVARY/CALVIN]

Well i very seriouly doubt thaT someone who has been truly born of God's Holy Spirit;would ever be allowed by his good and Faithful Higher Power to go astray into gross sin as severe as that! But yes if our eternal security rested in the power of our ownselves,what would the need be for God to send His Son into this world to be our Christ,and Saviour,and what would be the need to even believe in Jesus Christ Who died on a cross 4 sinner's,not 4 the righteous;because there isnt anyone who is accept God! God doesnt look 4 us to be righteous,because thats impossible because were born with a dead to God,carnal nature! God looks at the Perfect life of His Son,that He lived on earth 4 all His chosen whom He lived a perfect life of obedience to God the Father's holy law,and fulfilled 4 us because our very fallen nature can only be condemned by the Perfect holy law of God's nature!Therefore Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all who believe!!!! If u died while sinning, if your truly saved you would go straight to heaven!!!! If we have to walk on egg shells conscerning our salvation,and worry that we could lose our it according to every choice we make,we are of all people to be pittied,absolutely the most miserable in all existance!

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.

 

[dontwo]

I have a question. I go to this presbyterian church and while they say they don't recommend that anyone commit a sin, they say that since we accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior if we commit a sin such as murder, then rape etc and die unrepentant we would still be saved. Is this biblical?

all i know is that one sin can keep you from heaven. we need to repent daily for sins we have commited. there is only one unpardonal sin. not believing in Jesus Christ will keep you out of heaven. he is the way ,the truth and the life. no one comes to the father except thru Jesus Christ

 

[Hairy Tic]

I have a question. I go to this presbyterian church and while they say they don't recommend that anyone commit a sin, they say that since we accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior if we commit a sin such as murder, then rape etc and die unrepentant we would still be saved. Is this biblical?

## The best book on sin I know of is by a Calvinist, a Puritan no less - and anyone who imagines that Calvinist theology is relaxed about sin, needs to read it. It is simply superb.

It's called "The Sinfulness of Sin" - & despite the horrible nature of the subject, it is a good read:

http://www.gospeltruth.net/sos/sos_sinfulnessofsin.htm

As its author Ralph Venning points out, sin is so far from being trivial, that it cost nothing less than the death of God made man to atone for it.

Oh well, no harm in a second "plug" for it.

 

[Nemo Neem]

The only sin which is unforgivable is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

## The best book on sin I know of is by a Calvinist, a Puritan no less - and anyone who imagines that Calvinist theology is relaxed about sin, needs to read it. It is simply superb.

It's called "The Sinfulness of Sin" - & despite the horrible nature of the subject, it is a good read:

http://www.gospeltruth.net/sos/sos_sinfulnessofsin.htm

As its author Ralph Venning points out, sin is so far from being trivial, that it cost nothing less than the death of God made man to atone for it.

Oh well, no harm in a second "plug" for it.

Wow a Catholic recomending a book by a Calvinist. Now I havee seen everyhting. LOL I get much help from Catholic books too and am a Protestant of the Anglican persuasion.

 

[Heavens]

I have a question. I go to this presbyterian church and while they say they don't recommend that anyone commit a sin, they say that since we accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior if we commit a sin such as murder, then rape etc and die unrepentant we would still be saved. Is this biblical?

Nope.

 

[billybtennessee]

If there had been the word 'practice' in front of the word sin, in the OP question, then definitely it would present a problem. The truly 'born again' will not 'practice' such. Using the word sin by itself is not really addressing where the problem would be, my opinion.

We sure can not disregard these scripture, regardless of the particular doctrine discussed. 1st Cor. 6:9-11. Gal. 5:18-21. Eph. 5:3-17. Rev. 21:7,8. & 22:14,15.
Christ saves from sin, we are created unto good works. In that order. This is basically what everyone is saying I believe, in one way or the other, but one scriptural teaching is not gonna destroy another scriptural teaching, it will just explain more fully.