Presbyterian teaches if you sin and die unrepentant you go to heaven

[AnswersforChrist]

I have a question. I go to this presbyterian church and while they say they don't recommend that anyone commit a sin, they say that since we accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior if we commit a sin such as murder, then rape etc and die unrepentant we would still be saved. Is this biblical?

 

[mont974x4]

There is a lot of support for eternal security (once saved always saved) and the idea that you can lose your salvation. I believe in eternal security. If you'd like you can PM me your email address I can send you some notes (about a 6 page Word doc) on the issue.


Essentially if we can lose our salvation then we fall into a works righteousness sort of thing because we have to be "good enough" to stay saved, even though we are unable to be good enough to save oursaves to begin with.

 

[PaladinValer]

It isn't Biblical, although to be fair to Calvinism, I don't think they are that extent OSAS. Perhaps some of its soteriological adherents are, but I think Calvin would say that a murderer needs to repent or else he or she's in deep doo-doo.

 

[mont974x4]

No one says sin does not have consequences. Grace is not a license to sin. We are called to live obedient holy lives.

The issue is whether we can be saved and then unsaved...and then reseaved if/when we confess and repent.....and we cannot and we are not. We are either saved or we are not saved.

 

[bliz]

You have been taught correctly.

At the point of salvation, God forgives all of our past and future sins. Due to our sinful nature, we are not always able to remember all the sins we have committed, and therefore, we are unable to repent of all of them. All of us will die with unrepentant sin in our lives.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think the disturbing element on our part is the fact that we classify sins as some being worse than others. We think that a "white" lie is okay, but rape and murder are unforgiveable. In God's sight not only sins that we commit (each and every one) but also those good things we fail to do and should have done are truly heinous and worthy of an eternity in the lake of fire.

Thanks be to God that in Christ He forgives not only our little peccadilloes (at least in our sight) but every sin, including all of those that we never remembered or even thought to be sin.

 

[AnswersforChrist]

I guess I should of used something more like fornication instead of the r word, but I guess people understand what I am trying to say.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I have a question. I go to this presbyterian church and while they say they don't recommend that anyone commit a sin, they say that since we accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior if we commit a sin such as murder, then rape etc and die unrepentant we would still be saved. Is this biblical?

If Christ died for your sins . . . He died for them all . . . past future and present.

So, if you are going 80 mph in a 55 zone . . . wreck and die . . . you will still go to heaven.

The magnitudes of the sins that you cite though would warrant the question of wether or not the person who did such things, though having professed Christ at some point, was really truly converted and born again. Something happening rashly in the moment . . . perhaps . . . but premeditated . . . I would argue that the person was never really saved in the first place.

 

[Aibrean]

There is a difference of repenting for what we DO know we did and not repenting because we don't know what we did. If you commit murder AND you were a Christian you "know better" and know it is a sin. And I don't know about you but committing murder should not be easy for someone to "forget".

 

[Turkleton]

It isn't biblical. Nowhere in the bible does it say we are saved by faith alone. Although Luther added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 controversially so that it read: "thus, we hold, then, that man is justified without the works of the law to do, alone through faith" The word "alone" does not appear in the original Greek text. A little trickery to support his doctrine I suppose.

Jesus never teaches that "faith alone" leads to salvation. He always focuses on works, not as the basis of more rewards, but to obtain salvation. In fact, Jesus even says "by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matt 12:37). God's word describes justification by faith and by works. Large portions of the Bible are spent describing condemnation for sins. How could I believe in God but then drastically contradict his teachings (murder, rape, adultery, etc) and still think that I am "once saved always saved" (assuming that I am not repentant)

If we rely on works to save us, then we have become legalistic and not relying on what Christ has done. Yes, in James 2:18 says You say you have faith and I have works; show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.

Faith + works

 

[MrPolo]

I have a question. I go to this presbyterian church and while they say they don't recommend that anyone commit a sin, they say that since we accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior if we commit a sin such as murder, then rape etc and die unrepentant we would still be saved. Is this biblical?

It is not Biblical. Scripture warns to persevere and not fall away.

 

[PaladinValer]

It isn't biblical. Nowhere in the bible does it say we are saved by faith alone. Although Luther added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 controversially so that it read: "thus, we hold, then, that man is justified without the works of the law to do, alone through faith" The word "alone" does not appear in the original Greek text. A little trickery to support his doctrine I suppose.

I wouldn't say "trickery" so much as to overstep his correction of the heavily works-leaning teaching of the Church at the time.

Consider Eutyches [FONT=&quot][/FONT], who was right to declare Nestorius incorrect yet, despite honest and good intentions, went too far the other way.

Jesus never teaches that "faith alone" leads to salvation. He always focuses on works, not as the basis of more rewards, but to obtain salvation. In fact, Jesus even says "by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matt 12:37). God's word describes justification by faith and by works. Large portions of the Bible are spent describing condemnation for sins. How could I believe in God but then drastically contradict his teachings (murder, rape, adultery, etc) and still think that I am "once saved always saved" (assuming that I am not repentant)

If we rely on works to save us, then we have become legalistic and not relying on what Christ has done. Yes, in James 2:18 says You say you have faith and I have works; show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.

I would argue that there really shouldn't be seen any sort of "leaning" between belief and works. Faith, particularly living faith, is a positive response to God. It is belief, but it is put in action. Likewise, we can do a lot of great things, but without belief, they are not sanctifying.

Faith + works

A small quip: It isn't faith + works; it is belief + works = living faith. Both are required to achieve a worthwhile faith.

 

[Aibrean]

I would agree on the belief + works = living faith. In the Book of Concord it's listed that "if good works do not follow, faith is false and not true."

 

[Turkleton]

A small quip: It isn't faith + works; it is belief + works = living faith. Both are required to achieve a worthwhile faith.

From the Merriam Webster's dictionary...

1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

Faith and belief are essentially the same

Please explain James 2:20, "...that faith without works is dead."

Does this not imply that faith + works = living faith

I guess we're not really arguing about anything on this topic but I thought I'd point that out.

 

[mont974x4]

faith that produces works is living. dead faith is a different type of faith and one indiciation of what kind of faith it is, is that it does not produce works


faith and belief are virtualy synonymous and it comes from Christ.

 

[Aibrean]

I would rather have it the other way around. Works are the result of faith and belief (of course I believe that faith and belief are one in the same).

 

[mont974x4]

you realize that is what I said...works are a result of faith.

 

[Aibrean]

Yes...I had to rephrase my opinion as far as the order goes.

 

[BloodBought18]

It isn't biblical. Nowhere in the bible does it say we are saved by faith alone. Although Luther added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 controversially so that it read: "thus, we hold, then, that man is justified without the works of the law to do, alone through faith" The word "alone" does not appear in the original Greek text. A little trickery to support his doctrine I suppose.

Jesus never teaches that "faith alone" leads to salvation. He always focuses on works, not as the basis of more rewards, but to obtain salvation. In fact, Jesus even says "by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned" (Matt 12:37). God's word describes justification by faith and by works. Large portions of the Bible are spent describing condemnation for sins. How could I believe in God but then drastically contradict his teachings (murder, rape, adultery, etc) and still think that I am "once saved always saved" (assuming that I am not repentant)

If we rely on works to save us, then we have become legalistic and not relying on what Christ has done. Yes, in James 2:18 says You say you have faith and I have works; show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works.

Faith + works

Eph. 2:8-10 "8For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God--9not by works, lest any man should boast.10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforehand ordained, that we should walk in them."

Here Paul excludes works as essential to salvation. Nothing we can do can save us...that is the whole point of grace, mercy, and Christ's ultimate sacrifice. When James says that "faith without works is dead" he is saying that faith produces good works like a tree produces fruit. Christ said that a tree is known by its fruit. The good fruit is evidence of a live tree just as good works are the evidence of our faith and without them it is obvious that we don't have faith.

 

[AnswersforChrist]

I am agreeing with most of you who say the churches teaching is incorrect. I have read various parts of the bible condemning the unlawful deeds that are worthy of condemnation and saying that these people are going to hell. I don't hold on to such an extreme belief that if I murder someone I would go to heaven even if I don't repent.

I believe it does take someone to confess their sins and believe in order for that to happen. I believe that Jesus Christ is also the propitiation for our sins Praise God so that if we do sin, we will have an advocate with God the Father with him thank God. I think I got into thinking about praticing these false teachings because I heard them over and over again, and some of my own beliefs lately have been kind of filled with error so I wasn't trusting the Holy Spirit that is in me.

Unfortunately this church even teaches these things while doing evangelism so I may have to stop going there altogether and find some new church that teaches correctly because its going to be hard to continue to share the gospel right with so much false teaching. its not only that but soime of the pastors live in sin and the senior pastor even went on to say something like bad people receive answers moreso than a nice person because they organize the message. I thought that wasn't true at all.