Presbyterian Stereotypes

Nova Scotian Boy said:

Sometimes when i mention my background to other Christians and how I attended a Presbyterian Church for several years, i find im met with many negative a reactions to Presbyterians. Ive heard people say they have gone to different Presbyterian churches that most Presbyterians the have met are very unfriendly and cold, and any presbyterian churches they have gone to have been very unwelcoming. Ive even met many Presbyterians they left for other denominations for these same reason. These people see most if all Presbyterians like this and for these reason refuse to consider going to a Presbyterian Church ever again.

My own experiences have been quite the opposite and id go back to my old church easily if i was in the same city, but my question is as Presbyterians do you find similar reactions by people, how true do you find what they say to be true. What makes you think cause them to have this opinion about Presbyterians?

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This is a topic very near to my heart, it is a complex topic, with so many considerations to be made, much can be said. Please bear with my mannerisms or the way I gather and express my thoughts.

Some people associate the Reformed faith with the notion of "frozen chosen", so their preconceived bias effects their judgment from the start of said believers.

The truth is, you can find unfriendly and cold people in just about any Church (I have been to many different Churches). You can find friendly and warm people that are like a pack of wolves inwardly as well.

And there are many reasons why people are they way they are. For example, simple and unlearned people can be the most friendly and warm people, but should they remain simple and lacking in knowledge for the sake of friendliness? According to the Scriptures the answer is no. God wants us to grow, even if there are pains that come with growing. Quite often the challenge for complicated learned people is the temptation of getting "puffed up" with knowledge, of pride. The simple and unlearned can be more prone to the temptation of spiritual pride, of thinking they're just a little more sanctified than the person next to them, or unconsciously coming off that way. Sin is common to all believers, knowledgeable or not, and it can jade the best of us.

People can be very fickle, very wishy washy when it comes to choosing a Church. For example, in their minds the worship is not contemporary enough, or not traditional enough. Or the preaching is too topical and not expository enough, or visa-versa. Or this Chruch focuses too much on doctrine and not enough on Christian living. I know we all have preferences, but it seems the things mentioned would be of more importance than how many people shaked my hand and said hello at Church. Are we going to Church to share in the Truth, to learn and grow together, or for social hour, to be entertained? Gnat straining and camel swallowing.

Some folks would even extend the "unfriendly and cold" generalization to sweeping generalization concerning "conservative Christians". People can be overly critical of others, it's something I think we all struggle with. Someone can come off as "unfriendly and cold" when in fact, if they took the time to get to know the person, they would discover just the opposite. And who knows what that person may be dealing with at that time, it may be they're simply overwhelmed with how they would even approach or respond. Maybe they offend with simple handshakes and "how are you?"'s when they're really holding back for fear of offending! Sounds crazy but it happens. Personally, I struggle with communicating with people, I used to not struggle so much, but as I've grown things have become more complicated than they appear on the surface. I get overwhelmed and perplexed at times.

Let me give you a personal story. I live in an area of 100+ Churches, however I can count on one hand the number of Reformed Churches. There are only two Presbyterian Churches, one is located at a local college, the other is PCUSA. If I had a choice, I would attend an OPC or PCA, a conservative Presbyterian Church. The main issue in my mind in choosing a Church is doctrine, and whether or not it is Biblical and the Gospel preached without a sugar coat. With that said, I have to fight doctrinal pride, to attend a Church in the area where I live. A few Sunday's ago, my wife and I attended the PCUSA Church. I really did not feel like going at all, to be perfectly honest, I felt like killing my sister-in-law (long story). So I had an inward battle of forgiving my sister-in-law going on, which caused some strife with my wife and me. Before and after the service my wife and me were met with more warmness and friendliness than we had experienced in a Church in a long long time. It was very interesting to learn there were so many different retired ministers there. A Methodist minister, Lutheran minster, even a Baptist minister. The message that Sunday, did not come off as conservative or liberal, simply Biblical. With that said, it probably does help (to me at least) that the area where I live has more conservatives than liberals. Part of my message here is, denominations and people can have certain beliefs, but how things are played out may vary depending on location, local Church government, etc.

I want to end this note with a selection from Johnathan Edwards, considered by some to be one of America's greatest intellectuals, hated by others for sermons like his famous (or infamous depending on person) "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God"

“But in process of time, my convictions and affections wore off; and I entirely lost all those affections and delights and left off secret prayer, at least as to any constant performance of it ; and returned like a dog to his vomit, and went on in the ways of sin. Indeed I was at times very uneasy, especially towards the latter part of my time at college ; when it pleased God to seize me with a pleurisy, in which he brought me nigh to the grave, and shook me over the pit of hell. And yet, it was not long after my recovery, before I fell again into my old ways of sin. But God would not suffer me to go on with any quietness ; I had great and violent inward struggles, till, after many conflicts with wicked inclinations, repeated resolutions, and bonds that I laid myself under by a kind of vows to God, I was brought wholly to break off all former wicked ways, and all ways of known outward sin ; and to apply myself to seek salvation, and practice many religious duties ; but without that kind of affection and delight. Which I had formerly experienced. My concern now wrought more by inward struggles and conflicts, and self-reflections. I made seeking my salvation the main business of my life. But yet, it seems to me I sought after a miserable manner ; which has made me sometimes since to question, whether ever it issued in that which was saving ; being ready to doubt, whether such miserable seeking ever succeeded. I was indeed brought to seek salvation in a manner that I never was before ; I felt a spirit to part with all things in the world, for an interest in Christ. My concern continued and prevailed, with many exercising thoughts and inward struggles ; but yet it never seemed to be proper to express that concern by the name of terror.

From my childhood up, my mind had been full of objections against the doctrine of God s sovereignty, in choosing whom he would to eternal life, and rejecting whom he pleased ; leaving them eternally to perish, and be everlastingly tormented in hell. It used to appear like a horrible doctrine to me. But I remember the time very well, when I seemed to be convinced, and fully satisfied, as to this sovereignty of God, and his justice in thus eternally disposing of men, according to his sovereign pleasure. But I never could give an account how, or by what means, I was thus convinced, not in the least imagining at the time, nor a long time after, that there was any extraordinary influence of God s Spirit in it ; but only that now I saw further, and my reason apprehended the justice and reasonableness of it. However, my mind rested in it ; and it put an end to alt those cavils and objections. And there has been a wonder ful alteration in my mind, with respect to the doctrine of God s sove reignty, from that day to this ; so that I scarce ever have found so much as the rising of an objection against it, in the most absolute sense, in God s showing mercy to whom he will show mercy, and hardening whom he will. God s absolute sovereignty and justice, with respect to salvation and dam nation, is what my mind seems to rest assured of, as much as of any thing that I see with my eyes ; at least it is so at times. But I have often, since that first conviction, had quite another kind of sense of God s sovereignty than I had then. I have often since had not only a conviction, but a delight ful conviction. The doctrine has very often appeared exceeding pleasant, bright, and sweet. Absolute sovereignty is what I love to ascribe to God. But my first conviction was not so." - From The Works of Jonathan Edwards

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I was blown away when I read this testimony (perhaps because I could relate, perhaps the brutal honesty of it) given by Edwards. It brought warmness to my heart. Maybe if those friendly warm hearted people would share their warmth and friendliness, it just might cause us unfriendly folk to warm up.

do you find similar reactions by people

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I am one of the persons , guilty of participating in the sterotype having had the same reaction, no Presb. church I ever visiting (3-4) ever gave me a welcoming feeling.

In my experience, I'm usually a quite guy and don't want others to hound me with all sorts of, "welcome!, welcome!, tell me more about yourself?" One PCUSA church don't give the chance to shake germy hands for a minute around you in the pew. Some want to be left alone or at least choose how they want to greet themselves. I like the term, "the Middle Way" as the PCUSA describes on how they compare themselves to other denominations.

Me and my wife have been members of the Presbyterian Church for about 9 years(sh was raised presbyterian and I a Lutheran) and we have been chased down by pastors and elders when we walk into new Presbyterian churches. I think it's because we're in our 20s and everyone knows there are a lot of aging people in the Presbyterian church. It's that warm welcome that got use to be members at certain churches.

Hi, I just stopped in for visit from the Catholic side of town, we have a very similar tread going on over there right now (re are Catholics cold, not Presbyterians). I have only been to several Presbyterian services I was perfectly comfortable. I occasionally go to a small country evangelical Church with my husband are they are very welcoming, perhaps too much so for my taste, at least at first, they grow on you. My father was raised Presbyterian and course so was his side of the family. I inherited and I am sure learned most of my personality from my father. Me, my father and his side of the family are probably considered by many to be cynical and reserved. We are pretty WASPy / germanic, I don't want to paint our people with a too wide of brush but maybe it is a little stand offish to others. My point is could could the stereotype be due more to cultural differences than the religion itself. Perhaps I am wrong in assuming that most Presbyterians are Anglo Saxon, all the Presbyterians I know are. I assume you are more diverse now than when my father was a member.

It's getting more diverse - in the state where I live there is a large PCA church that is predominantly Chinese and another one that is Brazilian. However, on the whole, I think that one of the weaknesses of my denomination (PCA) is that it is still somewhat uniform when it comes to ethnicity. I would much prefer to see our churches at least as diverse as our communities.

Great topic and hits very close to home. I've been in the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) on and off for 31 years, and came to fully embrace the Reformed Faith around 1987 after much Biblical study and reading. Thus, my experience with the PCA has been contrasted and compared over the last 31 years with three other church types I've also attended: Evangelical Free Church (EV Free), Non-denominational Bible Church, and Baptist Church. All three have commonality of doctrine and yet there are some distinct differences, none of which, in my Christian life, have been a "deal breaker." If the Bible is taught, we can hash out the jot and tittles of doctrine on issues that aren't fundamental to Christianity. That's the first and foremost issue in choosing a church where you can worship the Lord.

That being said, the main issue that stands out in glaring contrast in the last 31 years is the type of folks that one finds at these different types of churches. PCA churches are liturgical generally, more somber, more intellectual and doctrinal in their teaching and preaching emphasis. The folks who naturally gravitate toward this type of church tend to be considerably more somber and reserved. The key word though is "tend," because one will from time to time find some outgoing and gregarious folks at PCA churches, but it's a small few. I have 3 decades of experience and find very, very few outgoing folks, pastors and elders included, in PCA churches. But, if you work really, really hard, get really, really involved, you can bring a few out of their shells. Folks can indeed appear unfriendly, but shyness and inwardness can often be misconstrued as unfriendly. If, however, you get involved, invest in people and friendships, and still don't get anywhere, leave and find another body of Christians to worship with. At that point, you know it's not you; it's the church's congregation. And again, reformed churches (PCA, OPC, etc...) do attract a more somber and introspective type of Christian, I've found. If that's not your personality, then these types of churches, though great doctrinally, are not going to be your cup of tea.

At Bible churches and Baptist churches, in my personal experience, we've found considerably more praising types of worship, more friendly and outgoing folks, more approachable and warm pastors/elders/leadership, and good teaching. But, you must always read a church's "Statement of Faith," because you can't give up strong Biblical teaching for a wonderful worship and friendly people. There are plenty of cults all around us that can offer that and often rope you in with that. Again, know God's Word, and find out first if it's taught in a church accurately and thoroughly. Then, and only then, look to the next thing--the people--and try a small group or two until you find one that's a fit, where you can be yourself and are accepted as such. Because, in the end, you're trying to fit with the people and feel comfortable and experience brotherly love and friendship, which Christ wants you to have. As the saying goes, "People don't care what you know, until you know that they care."

In a nutshell, you can't bend on worshiping somewhere where there is good, solid teaching. So once you find that, you must partake of a couple of small groups, and pick one and get involved. That's where you can truly gauge the friendliness factor in people. And, you must be truly involved in a church, rather than skirting the edges of membership or attendance by simply showing up on Sunday mornings and counting your greeting and your smile to the person next to you as your service to God for the week. You must get truly involved.

Most importantly, God knows your needs and if you pray for wisdom, He promises to give it to you. Use that God-given wisdom to select and evaluate churches until you find one (and, yes, it can even be a Presbyterian church), then give it a try and get involved for awhile before you begin gauging the "friendliness factor."

I'm Catholic now but used to be Presbyterian. I'm not going to get into an argument about converting, and in any case the Presbyterian Church had nothing to do with it.

However I attended a Presbyterian church for about 9 years, and enjoyed it, due to the people. We had a gym under the church, the pastor was outstanding with a remarkable family, there was a personable group of young people, and overall it was pretty good.

Obviously I can't speak for all Presbyterian Churches (or all Catholic Churches for that matter) and in any case, I think we can all get into a comfortable rut, attend the service or mass, and then clear out afterwards, Presbyterian, Catholic, brown, green or brindle. It takes a deliberate effort for churches to remain welcoming.