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Presbyterian Church Government is Biblical

Phil 1:21

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Most biblical.

More biblical than congregational, baptistic, Roman Catholic, episcopal, house church, or whatever else.

Don't believe me? Just read the Bible. Or discuss in this thread and get educated.

Okay. We're listening. Kindly state your case. Some folks here know absolutely zero about Presbyterian church government. Thanks.
 
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Tree of Life

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Okay. We're listening. Kindly state your case. Some folks here know absolutely zero about Presbyterian church government. Thanks.

Well it would be difficult to unfold the entire doctrine of Presbyterian church government in one sitting, as it comprises many different things. And many aspects of presbyterian government may overlap with other forms of government. For example, many would agree that churches ought to be led by a board of elders. So while this is central to presbyterianism, it is not unique to presbyterianism.

A better starting place might be for you to name the church that you align with and then I can point out some differences in how we are governed.
 
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Hammster

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Most biblical.

More biblical than congregational, baptistic, Roman Catholic, episcopal, house church, or whatever else.

Don't believe me? Just read the Bible. Or discuss in this thread and get educated.
Thanks for clearing that up.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Well it would be difficult to unfold the entire doctrine of Presbyterian church government in one sitting, as it comprises many different things. And many aspects of presbyterian government may overlap with other forms of government. For example, many would agree that churches ought to be led by a board of elders. So while this is central to presbyterianism, it is not unique to presbyterianism.

A better starting place might be for you to name the church that you align with and then I can point out some differences in how we are governed.

There are, as you probably know, varieties of Presbyterian government. Most denominations which go by the name of Presbyterian have presbyteries which are usually, although not always, geographic in nature and comprise a number of local Presbyterian churches. Membership in a presbytery meeting is determined by varying factors. Most Presbyterian denominations include the ministers of the churches (aka teaching elders) and most will include some ruling elders, as well. The UPCUSA strives to achieve equal opportunity and sets goals for gender equality, racial equality, and age equality. Other Presbyterian denominations limit membership in the presbytery meetings to men only.

Virtually all Presbyterian denominations have a form of national organization usually expressed both in permanent staff in a national headquarters under the supervision of the Stated Clerk of the denomination (who is comparable to the clerk of the session of a local Presbyterian church). Virtually all Presbyterian churches have national meetings called, typically, the General Assembly. Most meet annually, although the PCUSA has shifted to biennial meetings, changing from a long tradition of annual meetings. At these meetings various items are discussed and voted on which can affect both polity and doctrine of the denomination.

Presbyterianism is typically described as being connectional in nature, which poses great controversy, as in the recent debacle occurring in the UPCUSA over church building ownership of congregations who have decided to leave the denomination. The nature of congregational independence and national control varies widely among Presbyterian denominations.

That all being said, my question to you is how do justify these things as being biblical?
 
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bbbbbbb

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Which things? You've mentioned too much for me to know what you want me to respond to.

I apologize. I did dump a huge number of things at you. I will start with one at at a time.

The first would be presbyteries. Let's stick with geographic presbyteries composed of local Presbyterian churches in a particular area. Is this biblical?
 
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Tree of Life

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I apologize. I did dump a huge number of things at you. I will start with one at at a time.

The first would be presbyteries. Let's stick with geographic presbyteries composed of local Presbyterian churches in a particular area. Is this biblical?

It is one way to realize the biblical principle of connectionalism.

There is one church of Jesus Christ which manifests itself in many local churches. These local churches, while certainly having some autonomy, are not completely independent of one another. The churches are connected and it is in their best interest to be unified and ordered on matters that affect the church in a particular region or even particular nation.
 
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bbbbbbb

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It is one way to realize the biblical principle of connectionalism.

There is one church of Jesus Christ which manifests itself in many local churches. These local churches, while certainly having some autonomy, are not completely independent of one another. The churches are connected and it is in their best interest to be unified and ordered on matters that affect the church in a particular region or even particular nation.

So, there is no direct biblical support of this practice, but only a general principle?
 
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Tree of Life

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So, there is no direct biblical support of this practice, but only a general principle?

There are examples in Scripture of presbyteries existing and functioning. Acts 15 is an example of a presbytery functioning. Paul says that Timothy was ordained by a presbytery (1 Timothy 4:14).
 
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bbbbbbb

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There are examples in Scripture of presbyteries existing and functioning. Acts 15 is an example of a presbytery functioning. Paul says that Timothy was ordained by a presbytery (1 Timothy 4:14).

In Acts 15 we see a meeting of a general assembly of the apostles and the elders of all of the churches at the time. It was not restricted, say, to the Presbyterian of the Jordan River.

Timothy had hands laid on him by the elders of a church, not elders of churches in a particular geographic region. Here is the passage from I Timothy 4.

12 Let no one look down on your youthfulness, but rather in speech, conduct, love, faith and purity, show yourself an example of those who believe. 13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching. 14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

First, we see that Timothy was a young man (therefore, by definition, not an elder). We also see that he received a spiritual gift through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. Is this modern Presbyterian ordination? I think not.

Thus, the principle of geographic divisions of the church remains just that - a principle without direct support from scripture.
 
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Tree of Life

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In Acts 15 we see a meeting of a general assembly of the apostles and the elders of all of the churches at the time. It was not restricted, say, to the Presbyterian of the Jordan River.

That's fine. This was very early in the life of the church.

Timothy had hands laid on him by the elders of a church, not elders of churches in a particular geographic region.

How do you know?

First, we see that Timothy was a young man (therefore, by definition, not an elder). We also see that he received a spiritual gift through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery. Is this modern Presbyterian ordination? I think not.

Where in Scripture is the age qualification for the office of elder? Why cannot this be an example of presbyterian ordination?

Thus, the principle of geographic divisions of the church remains just that - a principle without direct support from scripture.

Galatians 1:2
 
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bbbbbbb

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Also many New Testament letters, such as Galatians, are written to regional churches (presbyteries) rather than local congregations.

If so, then Paul would have addressed these letters not to the churches in Galatia, but to the Presbytery of Galatia. The seven letters in Revelation are interesting in this regard as each is addressed to an individual church and none are written to a group of churches, much less to a Presbytery in the sense of a geographic province or area.
 
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Tree of Life

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If so, then Paul would have addressed these letters not to the churches in Galatia, but to the Presbytery of Galatia.

Tomayto Tomahto. Does not the fact that he can write one letter which will be received by all these churches imply some sort of connectional relationship between them?

The seven letters in Revelation are interesting in this regard as each is addressed to an individual church and none are written to a group of churches, much less to a Presbytery in the sense of a geographic province or area.

These churches are all in the region of Ephesus.
 
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bbbbbbb

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That's fine. This was very early in the life of the church.
Great. We are in agreement here.
How do you know?
Because of the definition of presbytery.
  1. a body of church elders and ministers, especially (in Presbyterian churches) an administrative body (court) representing all the local congregations of a district.
    • a district represented by a presbytery.

  2. the house of a Roman Catholic parish priest.
  3. Architecture:
    1. the eastern part of a church chancel beyond the choir; the sanctuary
Where in Scripture is the age qualification for the office of elder? Duh, because the very word "elder" means one who is elderly. The UPCUSA has fiddled with the definition to now include elementary children as "elders".

Why cannot this be an example of presbyterian ordination? We could, if we do not take as at all normative. If we take it as normative, then we would have to include the manifestation of a spiritual gift outright following a prophetic utterance.



Galatians 1:1

My answers are in blue.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Tomayto Tomahto. Does not the fact that he can write one letter which will be received by all these churches imply some sort of connectional relationship between them?



These churches are all in the region of Ephesus.

There is a spiritual connection to all believers in Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. There was unity among all of the churches at that time, not necessarily by geographic divisions manifested by a body of people from that area representing the churches of that area only.

Thank you for making my point concerning the seven letters of Revelation. They are not addressed to the Presbytery of Ephesus, but to each individual church.
 
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