Premortal Existance (LDS)

[skylark1]

.
There are really two probationary periods. Those which "passed" so to speak, their first probationary period are those who kept their "First Estate" they are the two thirds that followed The Fathers Plan.

The Second probationary period is our earth life. We had to come down through a veil of forgetfulness so that we could be truely tested and learn to live by faith.
This test could not happen while in full knowledge of God and who we truely are...

It's like telling your parents you will do what they say while they are in front of you; those that did not keep their First Estate did not even say that much. But the real test, and hence the greatest learning comes when your parents are not there and you believe no one is watching.

Thanks, TheWay.

It looks like there is a shake up in who can post where and about what going on here. I don't know if this conversation will continue, so I would like to just say thanks everyone for participating. I had started this discussion because of something that I read that spoke of LDS believing in two probationary periods, and that led to my other questions. I don't have to agree with everything to want to understand you beliefs better, and I think that this thread helped me to do so.

Did anyone else have any other comments concerning LDS teachings about why a body is required to progress? I know that there have been a few posts - but since I had asked if people could hold off a few days, I wanted to ask.

 

[Ran77]

Ran, what you posted speaks of what a physical allows us to do that we could not do if we only existed as spirits. Do you think that those things allow someone to advance? (I a using the word advance because it was used in the quote I posted in the OP. It began..."We lived in this premortal life with him for an infinite period of time. We were on probation; we were being schooled and tested and examined; we were given the laws and the circumstances so that we could progress and advance.) Or is the purpose of having a body what Phoebe suggested that DS teach it is necessary so that one can have a "continuation of seed" after they are in the Celestial Kingdom? Or both?

This is an area of speculation only, there is no revelation on the topic.

That being said, I don't believe that the continuation of seed is dependent upon a physical body. I believe the senses we gain with a physical body will open avenues that we, as mortals, do not yet understand.

 

[ivanc0]

LDS theology is that progress is external from the pre-existence, to the heavens, and once perfection is reached then the grow will be in Glory.
A nice theory because make man children of God and not just his creation like an object.
There is some support in to this theory in the passage in Jeremy that say "before you been in the womb of your mother I knew you"

In the bible the role of the saved seems to be more passive..

 

[TheBarrd]

You quoted RT beliefs, not Joseph Smith's.
QUOTE]

Well, one thing is for sure, anyway...I can't question Joseph Smith.
Too bad...I'm pretty sure he would have been very interesting...

 

[TheBarrd]

LDS theology is that progress is external from the pre-existence, to the heavens, and once perfection is reached then the grow will be in Glory.
A nice theory because make man children of God and not just his creation like an object.
There is some support in to this theory in the passage in Jeremy that say "before you been in the womb of your mother I knew you"

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

IOW, we are not God's seed children...we are created. That doesn't mean we are "like an object"...but it does mean we are created, not begotten.
I am a writer. I might speak of my characters as "my children"...however, that doesn't mean I carried them in my womb. Rather, they are the children of my brain. HUGE difference...

In the bible the role of the saved seems to be more passive..

There are many different beliefs about this. Some folks actually do seem to think we'll all just be lounging around on fluffy pink clouds, or hanging out with the angels and singing praises to God throughout eternity.

The Bible tells us that we shall be Kings and Priests, and reign with Him.

Me, I think we'll have a vocation that suits our abilities. I look forward to entertaining angels with my stories and poems...

 

[Norah63]

I have always found comfort in knowing I came from heaven and will return there someday.
So many gospel songs tell of meeting our loved ones when we 'go home'.
Home is where you belong because it is home.
Untill I was on this forum and others I had no idea that many christians didnt believe they came from heaven, and then returned. Guess they just believe in the earth exhistance as a beginning. One told me "his mothers womb".
I have asked many friends where they were before they were born, and so far all have said heaven.
Go figure, we sure live in a diverse world of religion.

 

[TheBarrd]

I have always found comfort in knowing I came from heaven and will return there someday.
So many gospel songs tell of meeting our loved ones when we 'go home'.
Home is where you belong because it is home.
Untill I was on this forum and others I had no idea that many christians didnt believe they came from heaven, and then returned. Guess they just believe in the earth exhistance as a beginning. One told me "his mothers womb".
I have asked many friends where they were before they were born, and so far all have said heaven.
Go figure, we sure live in a diverse world of religion.

I just don't believe in "spirit children" the way LDS describe.
I believe that what God breathed into Adam when he was created from the dust of the ground, was His own spirit...IOW, each of us is, in a way, a tiny spark of the divine.
I certainly do not believe that god and "heavenly mother" produced us in the same way as we produce children.
When we die, the Bible says, our spirit goes back to God Who gave it.
Thus:
"When the role is called up Yonder I'll be there..."
"What a day of rejoicing that will be"
"Nothing can hold me here! I'm heading home!"
"When we meet on that beautiful shore..."
"We'll sing and shout the victory!"

 

[Norah63]

Its one thing to sing it, quite another to know it

My post didn t say how anyone was created in heaven.

 

[TheBarrd]

Its one thing to sing it, quite another to know it

My post didn t say how anyone was created in heaven.

No, it didn't. Others have spoken of it.
So, I'll ask you straight up, then...how do you think that you were created in heaven?

I'm not even going to address the insinuation that I'm singing it without knowing it. Let's try to be better than that.

 

[Rescued One]

I have always found comfort in knowing I came from heaven and will return there someday.
So many gospel songs tell of meeting our loved ones when we 'go home'.
Home is where you belong because it is home.
Untill I was on this forum and others I had no idea that many christians didnt believe they came from heaven, and then returned. Guess they just believe in the earth exhistance as a beginning. One told me "his mothers womb".
I have asked many friends where they were before they were born, and so far all have said heaven.
Go figure, we sure live in a diverse world of religion.

Why leave heaven if you're already there?

 

[Ironhold]

Why leave heaven if you're already there?

Same reason why most people would leave their parents' home: set off on their own to prove that they can make it on their own.

 

[Rescued One]

Thanks, TheWay.

It looks like there is a shake up in who can post where and about what going on here. I don't know if this conversation will continue, so I would like to just say thanks everyone for participating. I had started this discussion because of something that I read that spoke of LDS believing in two probationary periods, and that led to my other questions. I don't have to agree with everything to want to understand you beliefs better, and I think that this thread helped me to do so.

Did anyone else have any other comments concerning LDS teachings about why a body is required to progress? I know that there have been a few posts - but since I had asked if people could hold off a few days, I wanted to ask.

Joseph Fielding Smith stated the following:

KINDS OF RESURRECTED BODIES
In the resurrection there will be different kinds of bodies; they will not all be alike. The body a man receives will determine his place hereafter. There will be celestial bodies, terrestrial bodies, and telestial bodies, and these bodies will differ as distinctly as do bodies here ...
Bodies will be quickened according to the kingdom which they are judged worthy to enter. Elder Orson Pratt many years ago in writing of the resurrection and the kind of bodies which would be raised in these kingdoms said:
"In every species of animals and plants, there are many resemblances in the general outlines and many specific differences characterizing the individuals of each species. So in the resurrection. There will be several classes of resurrected bodies; some celestial, some terrestrial, some telestial, and some sons of perdition. Each of these classes will differ from the others by prominent and marked distinctions; yet, in each, considered by itself, there will be found many resemblances as well as distinctions. There will be some physical peculiarity by which each individual in every class can be identified.

PROCREATION LIMITED TO CELESTIAL BODIES
Some will gain celestial bodies with all the powers of exaltation and eternal increase. These bodies will shine like the sun as our Savior’s does, as described by John [Rev 1:12-18; D&C 110:1-4; Ex 24:9-10]. Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have terrestrial bodies, and they will not shine like the sun, but they will be more glorious than the bodies of those who receive the telestial glory.
In both of these kingdoms there will be changes in the bodies and limitations. They will not have the power of increase, neither the power or nature to live as husbands and wives, for this will be denied them and they cannot increase.
Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the "continuation of the seeds forever." [D&C 132:19.] They will live in the family relationship. In the terrestrial and in the telestial kingdoms there will be no marriage. Those who enter there will remain "separately and singly" forever. [D&C 132:15-32.]

Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection.
Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 2, p. 286-288

I wonder why that was stated as if it were fact, if it was only speculation.

 

[Der Alte]

Same reason why most people would leave their parents' home: set off on their own to prove that they can make it on their own.

If the spirit children in heaven/paradise are offspring of God then they were God. They would not have to prove anything, they would have been omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent.

 

[Rescued One]

Same reason why most people would leave their parents' home: set off on their own to prove that they can make it on their own.

No, we are never told by God that we should stop depending on Him at some point. The idea of going to heaven is to be with Him forever!

 

[Der Alte]

Joseph Fielding Smith stated the following:

KINDS OF RESURRECTED BODIES
In the resurrection there will be different kinds of bodies; they will not all be alike. The body a man receives will determine his place hereafter. There will be celestial bodies, terrestrial bodies, and telestial bodies, and these bodies will differ as distinctly as do bodies here ...
Bodies will be quickened according to the kingdom which they are judged worthy to enter. Elder Orson Pratt many years ago in writing of the resurrection and the kind of bodies which would be raised in these kingdoms said:
"In every species of animals and plants, there are many resemblances in the general outlines and many specific differences characterizing the individuals of each species. So in the resurrection. There will be several classes of resurrected bodies; some celestial, some terrestrial, some telestial, and some sons of perdition. Each of these classes will differ from the others by prominent and marked distinctions; yet, in each, considered by itself, there will be found many resemblances as well as distinctions. There will be some physical peculiarity by which each individual in every class can be identified.

PROCREATION LIMITED TO CELESTIAL BODIES
Some will gain celestial bodies with all the powers of exaltation and eternal increase. These bodies will shine like the sun as our Savior’s does, as described by John [Rev 1:12-18; D&C 110:1-4; Ex 24:9-10]. Those who enter the terrestrial kingdom will have terrestrial bodies, and they will not shine like the sun, but they will be more glorious than the bodies of those who receive the telestial glory.
In both of these kingdoms there will be changes in the bodies and limitations. They will not have the power of increase, neither the power or nature to live as husbands and wives, for this will be denied them and they cannot increase.
Those who receive the exaltation in the celestial kingdom will have the "continuation of the seeds forever." [D&C 132:19.] They will live in the family relationship. In the terrestrial and in the telestial kingdoms there will be no marriage. Those who enter there will remain "separately and singly" forever. [D&C 132:15-32.]

Some of the functions in the celestial body will not appear in the terrestrial body, neither in the telestial body, and the power of procreation will be removed. I take it that men and women will, in these kingdoms, be just what the so-called Christian world expects us all to be neither man nor woman, merely immortal beings having received the resurrection.
Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 2, p. 286-288

I wonder why that was stated as if it were fact, if it was only speculation.

"But wait, that is not in the standard works thus it is not LDS doctrine it was only Mr. Smith's opinion.".

 

[TheBarrd]

"But wait, that is not in the standard works thus it is not LDS doctrine it was only Mr. Smith's opinion.".

So Joseph Smith did believe and teach that god and "heavenly mother" had sex, just like a mortal man and his wife, and heavenly mother gets pregnant, just like a mortal woman, and gives birth...
*shakes her head sadly*

 

[Rescued One]

So Joseph Smith did believe and teach that god and "heavenly mother" had sex, just like a mortal man and his wife, and heavenly mother gets pregnant, just like a mortal woman, and gives birth...
*shakes her head sadly*

Joseph Fielding Smith was the tenth president of the Mormon Church (1970-1972). His father, Joseph F. Smith (Joseph Fielding Smith, Sr.) was the sixth president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[Rescued One]

"But wait, that is not in the standard works thus it is not LDS doctrine it was only Mr. Smith's opinion.".

Well, I wonder what they think will be the differences and similarities in bodies other than the blood being absent for everyone in any kingdom.

 

[TheBarrd]

Joseph Fielding Smith was the tenth president of the Mormon Church (1970-1972). His father, Joseph F. Smith (Joseph Fielding Smith, Sr.) was the sixth president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Of course.
Silly of me not to realize that this wasn't the original JS.

 

[Rescued One]

Of course.
Silly of me not to realize that this wasn't the original JS.

Not really. All three are related. The fist Joseph Smith was an uncle to the sixth president.