predicting Christ's coming

[Hockey_Fan]

Well, to those who believe we will be gathered in the rapture, but, differ as to when, What all of us have in common is we believe we will be gathered in a rapture to meet the Lord in the air. I think, after reading all the posts on this subject, that we are closer in thought about it than we think. The discussion is very edifying for me, and I want to thank all of you for your contributions.

What's your belief about that? Do you think that is a literal, physical event?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

What's your belief about that? Do you think that is a literal, physical event?

Yes.

 

[Stones]

The Jew's awaited Elijah's return in Jesus time the same way we wait for Jesus to return now.

Jesus claim's that John the Baptist was the return of Elijah, spiritually.
So, Elijah didn't return the way the everyone expected, even thou the Jews waited for him.

I have to wonder if Jesus return is this kind of return that Elijah's return was? In other words, just as Elijah never returned, neither will Jesus, not the way we all expect.

Some say he has already returned. I suppose it depends on your interpretation of "Christs Return"...

 

[eclipsenow]

Here is the raptured, immortal church, dwelling in heaven, when the devil, who has been accusing Christians before God day and night (for the last 2000 years), is cast down to the earth for his "short time" (about 42 months) before Christ comes to destroy the wicked:

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So what to make of the 'Millennium?'

* First, lets remember that 1000 is hardly ever used literally in the bible. (See Footnote 1 below). It's a statement of impregnability, of completeness, like the "Third Reich will last a 1000 years".

* Second, that "Reich" is the church. We need to see that Revelation is not a future timetable but a theological description of life now. We are in the Last Days, and have been for over 2000 years, since the Apostle Peter said we were in the Last Days when the Holy Spirit arrived on the church for the first time! (Acts 2:17). That is, Revelation describes the church age, the reign of the saints, the time of the Christians. It describes life here and now between Jesus ascension and his climactic and final return on Judgement Day.

Revelation doesn't predict any particular, specific event at all! We are not meant to read this as a future timetable. Instead it's a sermon describing certain theological themes, not particular future dates. It describes Satan's persecution of the church, and how sometimes (generally speaking) this will involve 'beast' States that rise up against God's people. It says how Christians are meant to live in obedience to God and not trusting in this world's money or security or power. It describes the gospel and God's love for and protection of his people, even if they die. And, of course, it finally and symbolically describes that great Day of the Lord when Jesus will return in wonderful salvation and terrible justice. But we are not meant to look for clues as to when this will happen! That idea is foreign to the New Testament.

Revelation has no timeline. There's no linear sequence of particular events all lined up in order. Rather it waltzes around and around some general theological themes, like the repeated theme of Satan's challenge to God and final defeat. We see this in Chapters 17, 19, and 20. It's like watching a sporting event with cameras from every angle. Once the final try is scored, we can see it up close and personal, then from the sidelines, and finally from a 'God's eye' view from heaven. Check it out!

In each repetitive sequence the beast does something, and then gathers for battle, and then is *completely* defeated by Christ. It's the same event from different angles, all of which describe Satan's attempts to wipe out God's kingdom on earth, and then God's victory on Judgement Day. Repeated again and again.

In 17:7-14 the beast was, and is not, and then is again: with 10 horns (symbolic of great power) to persecute God's people, but is wiped out by the Lamb. (Emphasising that our Lord's death saved us).

In 19:11-21 we see the emphasis from the point of view of the Kings of the Earth who are sometimes tricked by Satan into persecuting the church, especially through a 'false prophet'. This is symbolic of all the times false teaching corrupts government. The beast is defeated once again, but this time it is the Lord on a conquering horse! (Even though the blood is probably yet another reference to his sacrifice for us).

Finally, in Chapter 20 we see that Satan is bound in a very specific way, and then rises to fight God's people and is defeated almost as an anti-climax. When God acts... it just happens. Game over. God has won!

Third: what is Chapter 20 all about?
If Revelation keeps repeating the theme of Satan's war against God during this period and God's final victory over him, then what is different in Chapter 20? What angle is this 'action replay' from? It's from heaven! Verse 20:4 takes us back to the throne room (which we've already seen in Revelation Chapters 4 and 5). There we see martyred Christians who are safe with Christ in heaven.

We learn that even though Satan is very active against God's people (previous chapters), there is one specific way he is bound. He cannot deceive the nations. He cannot stop the forward march of the gospel. Satan is not bound totally, as some Dispensationalist seem to imagine. Rather this imagery is to be fitted into other sections describing this age. Satan is bound in a very particular way. He cannot stop Acts 1:8, the forward march of the gospel! This is not a promise that every nation will respond to the gospel, but that every nation will hear the gospel. Rev 20 is to be held in balance with the other chapters that show Satan to be very active indeed! But in *this* chapter is a very powerful fulfilment of the promise to Abraham, that his children (us) would bless the whole world!

Dispensationalists reduce this rich theological passage to one of seeminlgy arbitrary events. This then that then that. But why? Amillennialists see the biblical symbols in John's writings, and know that John was yet again crafting a rich theological lesson full of symbol and metaphor and meaning and purpose. Satan being bound from deceiving the nations is the great mystery fulfilled, that God's kingdom would go out to all the world, not just confined to Palestine.

Finally we have the martyrs. Satan could not stop their 'first resurrection'. They are safe. The second death or hell has no power over them. Did you get that bit? These Saints are dead Saints. The second death has no power over them, even though the first one did have power over them when they died! In John's gospel he describes Christians as moving from death to life. Literally the phrase in Revelation 20 is "they lived and reigned with Christ". They *lived*, not they were resurrected! Even though it says "This is the first resurrection" that's John talking symbolically about how these were *Christians*, people forgiven by Christ who had moved from death to life! After all the horror of the last chapters in Revelation, we are told that should we be killed for Christ we will be safe. The view of this chapter is from heaven.

That the 'first resurrection' is John's way of referring back to his gospel should not surprise us.

John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."

John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

John 6:40 "For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

We *have* eternal life now, but are only raised up on the Last Day, not 1000 years before the Last Day! If this were a 'bodily' resurrection it would be 1000 years before the Last Day, and not fit with the rest of the New Testament let alone John's own gospel.

In John 11:24 John says:
"Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die.""
Compare this to John's writing in Revelation 20. "They LIVED with Christ" and they did not need to fear the second death.

Reading 20:4-6 as the actual resurrection doesn't fit 20:11-15 which really *is* describing actual bodily resurrection!
///11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. ///

It's Judgement Day, the dramatic language of the bodily resurrection of *everyone*, both good and bad, which is why the book of life is necessary. This is the final sorting between good and evil, between believers and unbelievers.

If THIS is when believers were bodily resurrected, then verse 4 cannot be. The Christians 'lived' in the *heavenly* throne room we know from earlier chapters. In other words, verses 11 to 15 are Judgement Day, the sorting of the Sheep from the Goats. Which makes sense of the rest of the New Testament instead of doing violence to it. The great Judgement, the resurrection, the end of sin and Satan and death itself, indeed the end of this very universe and installation of the next all happen on the Last Day.



Footnote 1: 1000 hardly ever used literally in the bible.

There ARE times when multiples of a thousand indicate an actual, 'close enough', literal number, such as when describing how many men went into battle or how many people they captured. But this is clear from the specific context. For example: 1 Chronicles 5:21
"They seized the livestock of the Hagrites—fifty thousand camels, two hundred fifty thousand sheep and two thousand donkeys. They also took one hundred thousand people captive,"

However these are usually in *multiples* of 1000. The USUAL usage of the actual symbol 1000 is anything but an actual number. It's like us saying 'about a gazillion' to modern ears. It's about exaggeration, not accuracy; it's about making a point, not counting; it's about completeness, not numbers.

The number 1000 is 10 times 10 times 10, the number of 'full completeness'. Just as the Hebrews repeated words 3 times for emphasis, for example, saying "Holy, Holy, Holy" instead of saying "God is extremely Holy", they also would throw some numbers together for emphasis. For example: 12 Tribes of Israel + 12 Apostles * 1000 (the complete number) gives you 144 thousand, the most complete number and picture of ALL God's people.

The two most conclusive verses that can ONLY be read as figurative for 'a gazillion' are;

Psalm 50:10
"for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills."
(Are literalists really going to conclude that God does not own the cattle on the gazillion other hills on planet earth?)

1 Chronicles 16:15
"15 He remembers[a] his covenant forever,
the promise he made, for a thousand generations,"
(1000 generations is being compared to 'forever'. Or are literalists going to say God backs out of His promises on generation 1001?)

But then many other verses also illustrate the number 1000 as 'a gazillion'.

Deuteronomy 32:30
"How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?"

Joshua 23:10
"One of you routs a thousand, because the LORD your God fights for you, just as he promised."

Job 9:3
"Though they wished to dispute with him, they could not answer him one time out of a thousand."

Job 33:23
"Yet if there is an angel at their side, a messenger, one out of a thousand, sent to tell them how to be upright,"

Psalm 84:10
"Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked."

Ecclesiastes 7:28
"while I was still searching but not finding— I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all."

Isaiah 30:17
"A thousand will flee at the threat of one; at the threat of five you will all flee away, till you are left like a flagstaff on a mountaintop, like a banner on a hill.”

Ezekiel 47:5
"He measured off another thousand, but now it was a river that I could not cross, because the water had risen and was deep enough to swim in—a river that no one could cross."

2 Peter 3:8
"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

 

[Keachian]

Since the Bible says no man shell know the date or the hour how much is acceptable when it comes to predicting His return? Is it OK to predict He come within your lifetime within the next 100 years or should we not try at all?

We expect his coming, but to predict in my opinion is heretical

 

[Bible2]

ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST said in post 1:

Since the Bible says no man shell know the date or the hour how much is acceptable when it comes to predicting His return?

Mt. 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31). So in Mt. 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Rev. 3:3b). In the context of Mt. 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible at some point in the future some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-trib and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim he will come when nobody thinks he will (Mt 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Cor. 2:11). If we claim the first verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim the 2nd verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Cor. 2:12-13), he can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (Jn. 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming. It could occur on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15, Dan. 11:31,36, Mt. 24:15).

ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST said in post 1:

Is it OK to predict He come within your lifetime within the next 100 years or should we not try at all?

Mt. 24:34 could mean that the temporal generation which would see the 1948 AD re-establishment of Israel (which could be symbolized by the rebudding of the fig tree: Mt. 24:32-34, Hos. 9:10, Joel 1:6-7, Lk. 13:6-9, Mt. 21:19,43) won't pass (i.e. die off completely) until the future tribulation and 2nd coming of Rev. chs. 6-19/Mt. 24 are fulfilled. A temporal generation may not pass until 70 or 80 years (Ps. 90:10), or 120 years (Gen. 6:3).

This doesn't require the 2nd coming will occur right before (like one year) before that generation will pass: i.e. 69, or 79, or 119 years after 1948: in 2017, 2027, or 2067. And if the tribulation which will immediately precede the 2nd coming (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, Rev. 19:7-20:6) will last 7 years (Dan. 9:27), the tribulation's first year didn't have to be in 2011, and won't have to be in 2021, or 2061, but could be in a future year (e.g. 2020) earlier than 2021.

 

[Bible2]

Bethwhite said in post 61:

Here is the raptured, immortal church, dwelling in heaven, when the devil, who has been accusing Christians before God day and night (for the last 2000 years), is cast down to the earth for his "short time" (about 42 months) before Christ comes to destroy the wicked:

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev. 12:10's first half is said not because Jesus' 2nd coming & the rapture & marriage of the church have occurred by that time, for those things won't occur until Rev. 19:7-21, immediately after the tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8). Instead, the 2nd half of Rev. 12:10 explains why the first half is said: because Satan the accuser of the church will have been cast down out of heaven to the earth for good by that time, which will be mid-tribulation.

Rev. 12:11's first half shows those in the church overcome Satan spiritually by the blood of Jesus & by their preaching of his truth, not by being raptured alive into the 3rd heaven. For the 2nd half of Rev. 12:11 shows the church overcomes Satan spiritually even by dying.

Those in the church who will be dwelling in heaven at the mid-tribulation time of Rev. 12:12, 13:6 will be those who have died (cf. Philip. 1:21,23, 2 Cor. 5:8, Rev. 6:9-11) and those who are part of the 144,000 (Rev. 14:1,4-5, TR; 12:5b).

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 65:

So what to make of the 'Millennium?'

The millennium will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:7-20:6, Zech. 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 2, 66:3-4). During the millennium, Jesus will place obedient Christians over cities (Lk. 19:17-19) and nations (Rev. 2:26-29) and political divisions within nations (Mt. 19:28, Lk. 22:30), while Jesus will be King of Kings (Rev. 19:16) over the entire earth (Zech. 14:9, Ps. 72:8-11), reigning in the earthly Jerusalem (Mic. 4:1-4, Zech. 14:8-21).

eclipsenow said in post 65:

First, lets remember that 1000 is hardly ever used literally in the bible.

In the Bible, the number 1,000 often indicates 1,000 literally (e.g. Num. 31:4-6, 35:4, Judg. 20:10, 2 Kin. 15:19, 1 Chr. 19:6, Song of Songs 8:11, Rev. 20:2-6).

Amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of full preterism (2 Tim. 2:18). For claiming that the church's resurrection in Rev. 20:4-6 is already present requires that Jesus' 2nd coming has already happened, for the church's resurrection in Rev. 20:4-6 won't happen until Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:7-20:6, 1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-54, 1 Thes. 4:15-16). Also, amillennialism ends up (inadvertently) logically requiring the error of partial preterism. For claiming that the resurrection of those beheaded by the Antichrist during the future tribulation and their subsequent reigning on the earth with the returned Jesus for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29) is already present, requires that the Antichrist's literal, 3.5-year worldwide reign during the tribulation (Rev. 13:4-18) has already happened. Also, amillennialism is mistaken because it requires that the devil is currently bound in the bottomless pit (Rev. 20:1-6), when in fact he's currently walking around on the earth seeking whom he may devour (1 Pet. 5:8), and won't be bound until Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:19-20:3).

eclipsenow said in post 65:

We need to see that Revelation is not a future timetable but a theological description of life now.

Regarding "future", Rev. chs. 6-22 are future, for they're about "things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1), & just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Rev. 19:7-20:3 has never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find its fulfillment, so the highly-detailed events of the preceding tribulation in Rev. chs. 6-18 have never been fulfilled, for nowhere in history books do we find their fulfillment.

Regarding "timetable", Rev. chs. 6-22 are a timetable, in the sense of being chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18 will begin with the events of seals 2-6, occurring in the order shown in Rev. 6:3-14. After the events of seal 6, Rev. 7 will occur. Then seal 7 will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Rev. 8:1-6). Then the events of trumpets 1-6 in Rev. 8:7-9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Rev. 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Rev. chs. 11-14 (Rev. 11:2b-3, 12:6,14, 13:5,7, 14:9-13). Then trumpet 7 will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Rev. 11:15). Out of trumpet 7's heavenly temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Rev. 11:19, 15:5-16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Rev. 16. Then Jesus will return (Rev. 19:2-7) and marry the church (Rev. 19:7). Then Jesus will defeat the unsaved world (Rev. 19:11-20:3) and will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29). Then the events of Rev. 20:7-22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

eclipsenow said in post 65:

We are in the Last Days, and have been for over 2000 years, since the Apostle Peter said we were in the Last Days when the Holy Spirit arrived on the church for the first time! (Acts 2:17).

That's right.

Regarding the latter or "last" days, they began in the first century A.D. with Jesus' first coming (Heb. 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last "days" are the last three roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Pet. 3:8) of the seven roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 B.C. to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Rev. 21:1) in roughly 3,000 A.D.. So the last "days" are the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Rev. 20:4-6), which will be part of the last roughly 1,000-year "day".

eclipsenow said in post 65:

That is, Revelation describes the church age, the reign of the saints, the time of the Christians.

There's no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue on the earth throughout all ages (Eph. 3:21). The church will continue on the earth throughout the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:9-13, Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4), & then throughout the subsequent millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29), & then forever on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-22:5).

eclipsenow said in post 65:

Revelation doesn't predict any particular, specific event at all!

Rev. chs. 6-22 are a highly-detailed, almost entirely literal future timeline, for they contain such a huge number of details, which are so varied, so specific, so chronological, & so long, that to reduce all of them to merely a general description of life at anytime renders them utterly useless, for what person who has ever lived needs a general description of life? It's like throwing Rev. chs. 6-22 into the trash, just to be done with them.

eclipsenow said in post 65:

Amillennialists see the biblical symbols in John's writings, and know that John was yet again crafting a rich theological lesson full of symbol and metaphor and meaning and purpose.

Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it's unsealed (Rev. 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically & almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Rev. 1:20, 17:9-12), and Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Rev. 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Dan. 7:4-7,17). Just as Jesus' second coming in Rev. 19:7-20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Rev. chs. 6-18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Rev. 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' second coming (Rev. 19:7-20:6, Zech. 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 66:3-4, 72:8-11). After that, the events of Rev. 20:7-22:5 will occur literally.

eclipsenow said in post 65:

We *have* eternal life now, but are only raised up on the Last Day, not 1000 years before the Last Day!

Regarding "raised up on the Last Day", in verses like Jn. 6:39-40 and Jn. 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera, G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (for example, see the Greek of 2 Cor. 6:2, 2 Pet. 3:8, and Jn. 8:56). Jn. 6:39-40 and Jn. 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Rev. 20:5).

When Jesus returns, only the church will be bodily resurrected and finally-judged (1 Cor. 15:21-23, Rev. 20:5, Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27; Mt. 25:19-30, 2 Cor. 5:10, Lk. 12:45-48). The bodily resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for a thousand years (Rev. 19:7-20:6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 66:3-4, 72:8-11, Zech 14:3-21). Only sometime after the thousand years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Rev. 20:7-10, Ezek. chs. 38-39) will the rest of the dead be bodily resurrected (Rev. 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).

 

[Keachian]

Regarding "raised up on the Last Day", in verses like Jn. 6:39-40 and Jn. 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera, G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (for example, see the Greek of 2 Cor. 6:2, 2 Pet. 3:8, and Jn. 8:56). Jn. 6:39-40 and Jn. 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Rev. 20:5).

So why do you think that the historical amill view is wrong? I would say that the period designated as the last day started on that Lord's Day some 2000 or so years ago. The Church victorious is with Christ now, the Church militant is in tribulation now, to live is Christ, to die is Gain.

 

[Bible2]

progmonk said in post 70:

So why do you think that the historical amill view is wrong?

Because of the reasons given in the first parts of post 69.

 

[Keachian]

Because of the reasons given in the first parts of post 69.

Well your first premise is one that if we are to look at scripture occurs only once, only once do we have some form of gap between the 2nd coming of Christ and judgment, why should I take this view as what the Bible teaches when I see clear symbolism in Rev 12 of Christ's first coming? If we can make a clear case (and I believe it is very clear every time I have seen it presented) that Rev 12 is symbolic, why should I take the rest of the book of Rev as literal when it is a one genre book; that of apocalypse.

 

[Bible2]

progmonk said in post 72:

Well your first premise is one that if we are to look at scripture occurs only once, only once do we have some form of gap between the 2nd coming of Christ and judgment, why should I take this view as what the Bible teaches when I see clear symbolism in Rev 12 of Christ's first coming?

Regarding "only once do we have some form of gap between the 2nd coming of Christ and judgment", there will be no gap between the 2nd coming of Christ and the judgment of the church. See the "When Jesus returns" part of post 69.

progmonk said in post 72:

Well your first premise is one that if we are to look at scripture occurs only once, only once do we have some form of gap between the 2nd coming of Christ and judgment, why should I take this view as what the Bible teaches when I see clear symbolism in Rev 12 of Christ's first coming?

Regarding "I see clear symbolism in Rev 12 of Christ's first coming", Rev. 12:5's "man child" isn't Jesus, for Rev. 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1b). Rev. chs. 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the same future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Rev. 11:2b-3, 12:6,14, 13:5-8, 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24. Regarding the Bible saying "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" (Rev. 12:5), along with Jesus (Rev. 19:15, Ps. 2:9) the whole obedient church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Rev. 2:26-29) on the earth (Rev. 5:10) during the future millennium (Rev. 20:4-6). Before the millennium, during the tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up bodily to the throne of God in heaven (Rev. 14:1,4-5, TR) as the "man child" (Rev. 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the church (Rev. 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Num. 18:12).

progmonk said in post 72:

If we can make a clear case (and I believe it is very clear every time I have seen it presented) that Rev 12 is symbolic, why should I take the rest of the book of Rev as literal when it is a one genre book; that of apocalypse.

Regarding "Rev 12 is symbolic", parts of Rev. 12 are literal and parts are symbolic, just as, for example, parts of Rev. 5:6 are literal (God's throne in heaven, the 4 beasts, the 24 elders, Jesus having been slain, the 7 Spirits of God, the earth) and parts of Rev. 5:6 are symbolic (Jesus being a lamb, his having 7 horns, his having 7 eyes).

Just as what John saw in Rev. 4:2-11 are literal things in heaven, so what John saw in Rev. 12:7-9 is a literal, future, mid-tribulation war in heaven, between Michael and his angels on the one hand, and Satan and his angels on the other, resulting in Satan and his angels being defeated and cast down to the earth (Rev. 12:8-9,12-13). Rev. 12:7-9 shows that even Michael and his angels are more powerful than Satan and his angels. But this doesn't mean that Satan won't be able to deceive the world (Rev. 12:9) into thinking that he and his angels (with the help of a united mankind) will be able to defeat YHWH and his army (Rev. 16:14, 19:19).

progmonk said in post 72:

If we can make a clear case (and I believe it is very clear every time I have seen it presented) that Rev 12 is symbolic, why should I take the rest of the book of Rev as literal when it is a one genre book; that of apocalypse.

Regarding the symbolic parts of Rev. 12, the "woman" represents the church (which is Israel: Rom. 11:1,17,24, Eph. 2:12,19, Gal. 3:29, Rev. 21:9,12, 1 Pet. 2:9-10). She's clothed with the sun (Rev. 12:1) of righteousness (Mal. 4:2) through her faith in Jesus (Rom. 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Rev. 19:8). The moon under her feet (Rev. 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Rom. 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Rev. 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Rev. 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (Mt. 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the church (1 Cor. 12:28). Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Rev. 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Rev. 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Rev. 14:1,4-5, TR) (like Enoch & Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven: Heb. 11:5, 2 Kin. 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Rev. 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24. The remnant of her seed (Rev. 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6, Mt. 24:9-13).

progmonk said in post 72:

If we can make a clear case (and I believe it is very clear every time I have seen it presented) that Rev 12 is symbolic, why should I take the rest of the book of Rev as literal when it is a one genre book; that of apocalypse.

Regarding "why should I take the rest of the book of Rev as literal", Revelation is almost entirely literal, for it's unsealed (Rev. 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for saved people of any time to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically & almost-entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Rev. 1:20, 17:9-12), and Revelation's few symbols not explained afterward (e.g. Rev. 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Dan. 7:4-7,17). Just as Jesus' second coming in Rev. 19:7-20:3 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally, so the events of the preceding tribulation in Rev. chs. 6-18 will be fulfilled almost entirely literally. Also, the millennium in Rev. 20 will be literal, and will begin after Jesus' second coming (Rev. 19:7-20:6, Zech. 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 66:3-4, 72:8-11). After that, the events of Rev. 20:7-22:5 will occur literally.

 

[Keachian]

Bible2 I don't really see any need to continue this discussion, I haven't been into Revelation in the past few years and still have to nut out a few things, it is a book filled with symbols and I would do it injustice if I didn't leave this conversation here, it is clear to me however that Revelation 12 at least has already happened in the incarnation death and resurrection of Christ.

God bless

 

[eclipsenow]

The millennium will begin after Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:7-20:6, Zech. 14:3-21), when he will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years

None of these verses support that. Indeed, Zech seems to be speaking of the day of the Lord's judgement against sin AND salvation:

The imagery below is Jesus walking up to the Mount of Olives in the week before his death.
The dark day is the darkness when Jesus was executed.
And don't forget that we have hear the streams of living water coming out of Jerusalem. How does Jesus fulfil this? He has already told the Samaritan woman that they should come to him for 'streams of living water'. It's the Holy Spirit and gospel going out into all the world.

3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.

This is the prophetic flattening, where God's battle with sin is sometimes mixed in with God's saving acts in Jesus. It's all flat, like a mountain range at a distance. Only when you get closer (as in the New Testament!) do we see that the mountains are not 'flat' at all, but have valleys in between them. The "Day of the Lord" in the Old Testament seems to be the one event. In the New Testament Jesus shows that his saving death on the cross for us is one of the 'Days of the Lord'. Luke 17 indicates there may be more, and that these might be minor days of Judgement, like AD70 which could be one. But the final return of Jesus on Judgement Day is pretty clear from scripture, and none of your semantic games have cut to the heart of it.

You just repeat, repeat, repeat but never respond to the heart of the main arguments or verses.

During the millennium, Jesus will place obedient Christians over cities (Lk. 19:17-19)

That's a parable!!! It's making a point about our gospel responsibilities, not a literal statement about political arrangements in your imaginary, hypothetical millennium! Please read a book on parables and metaphors and imagery and symbols, because you're embarrassing yourself here!

(I seriously can't bare to read any more of your posts tonight, not when I've got an encouraging Sci-Fi book like "World War Z" to read! )

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 75:

Indeed, Zech seems to be speaking of the day of the Lord's judgement against sin AND salvation:

Zech. 14 is about Jesus' second coming with all his saints (Zech. 14:5b, 1 Thes. 3:13b), and about the subsequent millennium, when he will reign on the earth from Jerusalem (Zech. 14:8-21, Mic. 4:1-4). Zech. 14:3 refers to the second-coming battle of Rev. 19:19-21, and Zech. 14:4 shows that at his second coming, Jesus will physically land on the Mount of Olives, just as at the end of his first coming he physically ascended from the Mount of Olives. Acts 1:11-12 says that Jesus will return in the same manner that he left.

Before Jesus' return, at the very end of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mat. 24 the armies of the unsaved world will gather together at a staging area at Armageddon (Rev. 16:14,16), which is Har Megiddo, Mount Megiddo in northern Israel. They will then move south and pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zech. 14:2-5, Rev. 19:19-21). Jesus will then remain on the earth as King (Zech. 14:9) and the unsaved people left alive on the earth (Mt. 24:40) will be forced to come up to Jerusalem and worship him annually (Zech. 14:16-19). Jesus and the bodily resurrected church will rule the survivors of the unsaved nations with a rod of iron during the millennium (Rev. 2:26-29, 5:10, 20:4-6).

Zech. 12:2-14 refers to the same future time as Zech. 14.

eclipsenow said in post 75:

The imagery below is Jesus walking up to the Mount of Olives in the week before his death.
The dark day is the darkness when Jesus was executed.
And don't forget that we have hear the streams of living water coming out of Jerusalem. How does Jesus fulfil this? He has already told the Samaritan woman that they should come to him for 'streams of living water'. It's the Holy Spirit and gospel going out into all the world.

3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.

Jesus' first coming wasn't the day of the Lord (Zech. 14:1), for that won't begin until his second coming (1 Cor. 1:7-8, 2 Thes. 2:1-2). Also, Jesus' first coming didn't occur right after Jerusalem had been defeated by all nations gathered against it (Zech. 14:2-5). Also, at his first coming, Jesus didn't fight the nations (Zech. 14:3) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:4). It will be at his second coming that Jesus will fight the nations (Rev. 19:11-21) and then land on the Mount of Olives just as he ascended from the Mount of Olives (Acts 1:11-12).

Also, at his first coming, Jesus didn't split the Mount of Olives in two (Zech. 14:4), creating a valley through which the Jews in Jerusalem could flee from Jerusalem (Zech. 14:5) as Jesus waged war against all the nations of the world which had just pillaged Jerusalem (Zech. 14:2-5). Also, at Jesus' first coming, he didn't come with all the saints (Zech. 14:5b). That will happen only at his second coming (1 Thes. 3:13b). Also, at Jesus' first coming, he didn't make it so that Jerusalem wasn't dark at night (Zech. 14:6-7). And he didn't make water flow out from Jerusalem in summer and winter, half of the water flowing toward the Dead Sea and the other half toward the Mediterranean (Zech. 14:8). And he didn't make himself King over the earth (Zech. 14:9). And he didn't flatten the topography for miles around Jerusalem and raise its elevation (Zech. 14:10). And he didn't make it so that Jerusalem wouldn't be destroyed (Zech. 14:11). And he didn't send an amazingly rapid, flesh-eating plague against the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem, so that their flesh consumed away while they stood on their feet (Zech. 14:12).

Also, at his first coming, Jesus didn't cause the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem to fight against each other (Zech. 14:13). And he didn't make Judah fight at Jerusalem and win for itself the wealth of all the nations surrounding it (Zech. 14:14). And he didn't make the transportation animals used by the armies which had just pillaged Jerusalem suffer the horrible flesh-eating plague (Zech. 14:15,12). And unsaved survivors of all nations which had just pillaged Jerusalem didn't come to Jerusalem annually at the Feast of Tabernacles to worship Jesus (Zech. 14:16). And he didn't send drought and plague against the nations which refused to come to Jerusalem to worship him (Zech. 14:17-19).

Also, at his first coming, Jesus didn't make Jerusalem so holy that even the bells on the horses in Jerusalem had the words "Holiness Unto The Lord" engraved on them (Zech. 14:20). And he didn't make it so that the animal-sacrifice boiling pots in the temple in Jerusalem became as holy as the bowls before the altar (Zech. 14:20). And didn't make it so that every pot in Jerusalem and Judah became holiness to the Lord (Zech. 14:21). Instead, at his first coming, Jesus left Jerusalem spiritually desolate (Lk. 13:35). Also, at his first coming, Jesus didn't make it so that there would be no more Canaanites in the temple in Jerusalem (Zech. 14:21).

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 75:

That's a parable!

Even though Lk. 19:17-19 is part of a parable, its principle of Jesus giving obedient Christians rulership over parts of the earth will still be fulfilled literally, after Jesus' 2nd coming and the establishment of his millennial kingdom (Lk. 19:15), just as verses like Rev. 2:26-29, Mt. 19:28, Lk. 22:30, Zech. 14:9, Ps. 72:8-11, Mic. 4:1-4, and Zech. 14:8-21 will be fulfilled at that time.

For while presently the kingdom of God is in heaven (2 Tim. 4:18, Heb. 12:22-24), & is on the earth spiritually within Christians (Rom. 14:17, Lk. 17:21), in the future, the kingdom will come fully upon the earth as it is in heaven (Mt. 6:10). It will be physically (Lk. 22:30, Mt. 19:28) on the earth (Rev. 5:10), first during the future millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, 2:26-29, Ps. 66:3-4, 72:8-11, Zech 14:3-21) & then on the new earth (Rev. 21:1-8).

Jesus' kingdom is Israel (Jn. 1:49, 12:13-15, 19:19, Lk. 22:30). That's why at his 2nd coming he'll sit on the earthly throne of David (Lk. 1:32-33, Isa. 9:7) & restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Mt. 1:1, 21:15-16, Rom. 1:3), of the house of David (Lk. 1:69). So at Jesus' 2nd coming, he'll restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isa. 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Sam. 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kin. 17:21a), & Jesus will fulfill the prophecy & prayer of 2 Sam. 7:16-29. And he will bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David, for they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in him when they see him at his 2nd coming (Zech. 12:10-14, 13:1,6, Rom. 11:26-31). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, for there are no believers outside of the church (Eph. 4:4-6).

After Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:7-20:3, Zech. 14:3-5) will occur the millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, Zech. 14:8-21), during which, Gentile nations will come to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zech. 8:22, 14:9, Ps. 72:8-11) on the restored throne of David (Isa. 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isa. 2:1-4, Zech. 14:8-11,16-19). And the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus during the millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29), for the church is Israel (Rom. 11:1,17,24, Eph. 2:12,19, Gal. 3:29, Rev. 21:9,12, 1 Pet. 2:9-10).

 

[Interplanner]

re Zech driven interp
Bible2's system has a faulty denominator. It is that a person is strictly literal with Zechariah, without reference to how the NT uses Zechariah, which is interwoven with how it uses the other prophets. There are 2500 quotes or allusions of the OT by the NT, and when you get used to them, you don't use Zecharaiah the same way.

This means Rom 11 is mistaken in how it used, as is Acts 1 (let's not miss the very point that is being made). When you are driven by Zech you will see the opposite of what the sermon of Acts 3 is actually saying, which is that the times of refreshing are upon them then, and the extirpation for disbelief is the pending disaster.

This item about 'coming back as you have seen him go' always puzzles me. The coming back would be a quiet, possibly mysterious meeting of his followers. Nothing about conquering, fighting, subjugating etc., as spelled out by Bible2 because that would not be how he left.

One of the problems of literalism is that the Judaistic elements keep seaping through. The things about the 'future millenium' in Lk 17 or 19 are really annoying. As though the mind of Jesus was to flit out a couple thousand years in his meaning at any given time.

Let's suppose for a second that the 'exact description' of the battle exactly 3.5 years after a certain event takes place is true. The march from north of Jerusalem down to it to overrun it. Well, you're a bit late. In the 12th century, Salahadhin took Jerusalem back from the 3rd Crusade (sort of from the north), and it's really been overrun since then.

And then you have the question of the 'net gain' of winning it back. I was pointed to Ezek 38-9 once very excitedly by someone about the great battle that would win back Jerusalem. I was less than thrilled to realize that almost everyone being rescued perished in the attempt.

Then there is the objective of such a winning back. It all seems to be to set up the operations of Judaism. Don't people realize all the "new" features of the NT--the new exodus, Passover Lamb, temple, Israel, priesthood, that exist in the Gospel? Oh, so it was all for no reason? "The Law was a child-trainer to bring us to Christ" (Gal 4) but the Millenium is a dictation that we should go back to the Law, and the bells on horses feet that say they are 'holy to the Lord.'? I think not.

--Inter

 

[Interplanner]

re Amos 9
If Bible2 will just look at what happens to Amos 9 in Acts 15, he might realize that there is a total change in how prophecy and David's promises and role, are used due to the Gospel and mission of Christ.

--Inter

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 78:

This item about 'coming back as you have seen him go' always puzzles me.

Jesus will return "in like manner" as he ascended (Acts 1:11b), in that just as at the end of his first coming he was seen by literal eyes to ascend physically from the Mount of Olives into a literal cloud & on into heaven (Acts 1:9,12, cf. Lk. 24:39), so at his 2nd coming, he'll be seen in literal clouds by literal eyes (Rev. 1:7, Mt. 24:30) to physically descend from heaven (1 Thes. 4:16) & set his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:3-21).

When Jesus returns, immediately after the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Rev. 19:7-21, Mt. 24:29-31), he will descend bodily from heaven on a white horse (Rev. 19:7-21, 1 Thes. 4:16, Zech. 14:3-4, Acts 1:11-12) with all the holy angels (Mt. 25:31, 2 Thes. 1:7) for all the world to see (Mt. 24:27,30, Rev. 1:7). Then the church will be bodily resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) (1 Cor. 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thes. 4:16, Rev. 20:4-6) and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Mt. 24:31, 2 Thes. 2:1) as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus (1 Thes. 4:17). At that meeting, he will judge the church (Ps. 50:3-5, cf. Mk. 13:27; 2 Cor. 5:10, Lk. 12:45-48) and marry its obedient part (Rev. 19:7-8, Mt. 25:1-12) in the clouds, before it mounts white horses and descends back down from sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Rev. 19:14) as he defeats the world's armies (Rev. 19:19,21) and the Antichrist and the False Prophet (Rev. 19:20), and has Lucifer (Satan) bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:1-3).

Jesus will then make Rev. 19:9's marriage supper for the obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isa. 25:6-9, 1 Cor. 15:54), while the birds will feast on the corpses of the world's defeated armies (Rev. 19:17-18). Then Jesus and that part of the church will rule the surviving nations with a rod of iron for the full 1,000 years of the millennium (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29, Ps. 2). After the 1,000 years are over, Lucifer will be released from the bottomless pit and bring about the Gog/Magog rebellion, only to be defeated for the last time (Rev. 20:7-10, Ezek. chs. 38-39). At least 7 years after that defeat (Ezek. 39:9b), the great white throne judgment will occur, in which all those who hadn't been resurrected and judged at Jesus' return will be resurrected and judged (Rev. 20:11-15). Then God will create a new heaven (a new 1st heaven: a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Rev. 21:1, 2 Pet. 3:10b,13). Then God the Father will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:2), the Father's house (Jn. 14:2, Rev. 21:3), and he will dwell on the earth with Jesus and the church (Rev. 21:3).

In one area outside the walls of New Jerusalem on the new earth will be the lake of fire (Rev. 22:15, 21:8) in which all of unsaved humanity will be punished forever in fire & brimstone with Lucifer & his angels (Rev. 20:10,15, Mt. 25:41,46).

Interplanner said in post 78:

As though the mind of Jesus was to flit out a couple thousand years in his meaning at any given time.

It's Jesus who showed the church in Rev. 19:7-20:6, 5:10, 2:26-29 that after his 2nd coming, he and the bodily resurrected church will reign on the earth for a thousand years. For the entire book of Revelation is from Jesus to the church (Rev. 1:1, 22:16). He didn't tell the church about the millennium before Revelation because he waits to tell the church things until it's ready to hear them, and not before (Jn. 16:12). What's really sad is that even after he tells the church things, there can be some in the church who still can't hear them, but choose to reject them and replace them with man-made ideas (cf. 2 Tim. 4:3-4).

 

[Bible2]

Interplanner said in post 78:

Let's suppose for a second that the 'exact description' of the battle exactly 3.5 years after a certain event takes place is true.

It may not be exactly 3.5 years after. For Dan. 12:11-12 (and Rev. 16:15) could mean that exactly 1,335 literal days (a bit more than 3.5 years) after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Mt. 24:15, Dan. 11:31), Jesus' second coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Rev. 13:5-8, 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up, and if the seven vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Rev. 11:15,19, 15:5-16:1), and if the first six vials will be poured out over thirty days, then the sixth vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Dan. 12:11).

It's on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Dan. 12:12/Rev. 16:15 could be given, after the sixth vial has been poured out (Rev. 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' second coming occurs on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the armies of the world to Armageddon (Rev. 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' second coming occurs and they're defeated (Zech. 14:2-21, Rev. 19:19-21).

Interplanner said in post 78:

"The Law was a child-trainer to bring us to Christ" (Gal 4) but the Millenium is a dictation that we should go back to the Law, and the bells on horses feet that say they are 'holy to the Lord.'? I think not.

It hasn't been said that we will go back to the Law, in the sense of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For on Jesus' cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (Jn. 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (the OCML) was abolished (Eph. 2:15-16, Col. 2:14-17, 2 Cor. 3:6-18), rendered obsolete (Heb. 8:13, Gal. 3:2-25, 4:21-5:8), taken away and replaced (Heb. 10:9) by the better hope (Heb. 7:19), the better covenant (Heb. 7:22, 8:6-12), the second covenant (Heb. 8:7, 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Gal. 6:2, Jn. 1:17, Mt. 26:28, Heb. 12:24, 9:15), so that the law was changed (Heb. 7:12). All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the OCML and shouldn't keep it (Rom. 7:6, 2 Cor. 3:6-18, Gal. 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Gal. 4:21-5:8, 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the OCML (Rom. 7:6) by loving others (Gal. 5:14, Rom. 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Mt. 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Heb. 7:12,18-19, 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus' New Testament commandments (Jn. 14:15), such as those he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Mt. 5:19-7:29) and in the epistles of Paul the apostle (1 Cor. 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the OCML (Mt. 5:20-48), so that there's no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the OCML (Gal. 3:2-5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Gal. 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Col. 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Gal. 3:16-29, Mt. 26:28). The letter of the OCML has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (the NC) (Heb. 8:13). For example, the letter of the OCML required an Aaronic priesthood (Ex. 30:30), whereas the NC replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Heb. 7:11-28). Also, the letter of the OCML required animal sacrifices (e.g. Lev. 23:19), whereas the NC replaced those with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus (Heb. 10).

The letter of the OCML is the Hagar to the NC's Sarah (Gal. 4:22-25), so that those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the OCML are like Ishmael, while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the NC are like Isaac (Gal. 4:22-31). The letter of the OCML (including the letter of the ten commandments), written and engraven in stones (2 Cor. 3:7, Deut. 4:13, 27:8), was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Cor. 3:7,9; e.g. Lev. 20:10, Ex. 31:14, Num. 15:32-36; contrast the NC's Jn. 8:4-11, Mt. 12:1-8) which has been done away (2 Cor. 3:11), abolished (2 Cor. 3:13b), yet it's still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus (2 Cor. 3:14-16), whereas the NC is the ministration of the spirit and righteousness (2 Cor. 3:6,8,9b) which remains (2 Cor. 3:11b) and which permits believers to remove the veil and to behold Jesus (2 Cor. 3:16-18, Mk. 15:38, Heb. 7:18-19, Eph. 2:15-18, Col. 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism is still able to deceive even some believers into thinking that they must still keep the letter of the OCML in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Gal. 3:2-5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Gal. 1:6-9), for if any believers are keeping any part of the letter of the OCML, thinking they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then they have fallen from grace (Gal. 5:2-8).