predestined

SayaOtonashi said:

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

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No!

MDC said:

Perfect example of elevating mans will above Gods will. This statement is foolish and full of arrogance

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MDC said:

To say that you don’t know if God knows who will or will not be saved is foolish. Do you not see how arrogant that is?

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... and what about your posts?

SayaOtonashi said:

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

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Yes but only if predestination as Calvinists teach it is true.

Radagast said:

We can make a choice, if you mean that we do the thing that we want to do.

We can't make a choice, if you mean that we could have done something different.

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How do you know this?

zoidar said:

How do you know this?

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I'm basically just restating the definitions of libertarian free will and compatibilist free will, and combining them with the known relationship between foreknowledge and free will. See Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

GingerBeer said:

Yes but only if predestination as Calvinists teach it is true.

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You've got predestination and foreknowledge mixed up.

Foreknowledge rules out libertarian free will even if predestination isn't true, because foreknowledge means that the future must take place as foreseen.

Of course, compatibilist free will still exists.

SayaOtonashi said:

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

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What you are describing is fatalism.
While election and predestination are 100%true, God has not revealed who is chosen. The gospel command is to repent and believe the gospel. All men are fully responsible to God.

Kenny'sID said:

What would be the point of even bothering to write the bible if that were so? What is going to happen would just happen, no matter what. Actually, if predestination was a fact, we might as well be sent straigh to heaven or hell and not even bother with the in between, it would be a waste of time.

Or in short, predestination is ridiculous, and would make us a bunch of no free will robots... don't you believe it.

We absolutely can change our fate. The only thing predestined is what was planned, things like Christ coming to earth, Heaven and Hell, you know the whole salvation plan/deal God gave us , our creation and so forth. What we do, how we end up is all on us. We accept Christ, live right and go to heaven, we don't and we don't.

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To call a biblical truth ridiculous is the language of unbelief
There is clear teaching of this truth that you need to deal with.
You cannot take out a black ink sharpie and cross the teaching out of your Bible.

SayaOtonashi said:

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

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Predestination is not fate, that is not what is meant by Paul when he uses the term translated 'predestination' nor what Calvinists are talking about when they use it. The Greek word is proorizō (προορίζω G4309, from πρό G4253 and ὁρίζω G3724). It's composed of two Greek words, 'pro' which is the exact same meaning as the prefix 'pro', in the English, and horizō, which is where we get the word horizon from. The dictionary definition from Vine's Dictionary:

There is nothing in this word indicating anything remotely like pagan fate, the way your using it, it doesn't even resemble how Greek mythology describes fate. It's the plans and purposes of God beyond the vanishing point of our horizon, even before the foundation of the world, that God ordained that would include us as the elect, adopted as sons, and the righteousness of God in Christ. As many times as I've seen the subject of predestination come up I have yet to see the true theological meaning of this word expounded by critics of Calvinism. The questions raised by the doctrine of predestination are asked and answered in the New Testament in no uncertain terms, not that I expect we will get to them because we never do.

Predestination is whatever God’s hand and counsel determined before to be done (Acts 4:28). That we as the elect would be conformed to the image of his Son (Rom. 8:29). That the elect would be called, justified and glorified according to God’s mercy and perfect will (Rom. 8:30). That the mystery of God’s will would be revealed unto our glory (1Cor. 2:7). The adoption as sons according to the good pleasure of his will (Eph. 1:5). That in Christ we would obtain an inheritance after the council of his own will (Eph. 1:11).

Those plans and purposes will not change whether you go on to faith, righteousness and glory, or find yourself in the fires of perdition. The emphasis is always, because it must be, the perfect will of God. Calvinism does not teach fate, eternal security is synonymous with eternal life and it's either that or eternal death, there is no third choice. Of course you have free will, at the feeding of the 5,000 a few choose to stay and most of them chose to leave, but your will is meaningless with regards to any personal merit you might have with regards to salvation. We don't know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, to even ask the question is not of faith (Rom. 10:5-13). On the last day God will expose the secret intentions of the heart, therefore we are told not to judge anything before the proper time when God judges righteously (1 Cor. 4:5). Shall clay say to the maker, what makest thou? (Isaiah 45:9; Romans 9:21).

Whatever you think of predestination, as taught by Calvinists, stay in your lane, God will reveal all things in the fullness of time. Because no Calvinist worth his salt and certainly no New Testament writer, has ever embraced the pagan notion of fate. That is an absurdity that boarders on slander, I've never heard any such thing from my Calvinist brethren, nor do I expect I ever will. The emphasis is always on God's sovereign will, his plans and purposes in Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Radagast said:

I'm basically just restating the definitions of libertarian free will and compatibilist free will, and combining them with the known relationship between foreknowledge and free will. See Free Will (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

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Radagast said:

You've got predestination and foreknowledge mixed up.

Foreknowledge rules out libertarian free will even if predestination isn't true, because foreknowledge means that the future must take place as foreseen.

Of course, compatibilist free will still exists.

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Your linked text is way too long. All I can say is you can't know, only believe the one or the other.

Let say I know everything and you are doing a painting. You are thinking that you will either paint a fox or a lion, but you go with the lion. Of course I knew you would go for the lion. But does that mean I made the choice for you because I knew what you would decide?

Edit: If you like you can take the best arguments from the philosophical site, and I will try to argue against the.

StillGods said:

we dont even know if we ourselves are elect
until we die.
very unsettling and there's nothing we can do about it because we have no choice

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How sad for you.
I have no fears about being part of the elect, so why are you so unsettled and fearful?

Romans8v15For you have not received a spirit of bondage again to fear, but you have received the Spirit of divine adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, also heirs: heirs indeed of God, and joint-heirs of Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified together.

How come your spirit does not witness God's Spirit?

The problem with academic theology is that non Christians can learn it, espouse it, lecture on it a colleges of divinity and churches, all the while being spiritually dead, as indeed where most Pharisees and scribes.

zoidar said:

Your linked text is way too long. All I can say is you can't know, only believe the one or the other.

Let say I know everything and you are doing a painting. You are thinking that you will either paint a fox or a lion, but you go with the lion. Of course I knew you would go for the lion. But does that mean I made the choice for you because I knew what you would decide?

Edit: If you like you can take the best arguments from the philosophical site, and I will try to argue against the.

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Foreordained and Predestination are the same basic concepts in the opening verses of Ephesians. Paul is using a parallelism, it's a hymn of praise, not semantical hair splitting. Theological arguments related to those expressions not withstanding.

zoidar said:

Your linked text is way too long. All I can say is you can't know, only believe the one or the other.

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That page is basic philosophy on the topic. You don't need to read it, but if you don't, then you can't seriously tell me I'm wrong.

zoidar said:

Let say I know everything and you are doing a painting. You are thinking that you will either paint a fox or a lion, but you go with the lion. Of course I knew you would go for the lion. But does that mean I made the choice for you because I knew what you would decide?

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Good example. I had compatibilist free will -- I painted the lion because I wanted to paint the lion (nobody stopped me from painting the fox).

But I didn't have libertarian free will -- if you genuinely knew that I would paint the lion, then you could take me back in a time machine over and over again, and I'd paint the lion every time. I could not have chosen to paint the fox (because, of course, I would never have wanted to paint the fox).

See, there are two completely different kinds of "free will," and it's important to know which one you're talking about. Both foreknowledge and predestination only work with compatibilist free will.

mark kennedy said:

Foreordained and Predestination are the same basic concepts in the opening verses of Ephesians. Paul is using a parallelism, it's a hymn of praise, not semantical hair splitting. Theological arguments related to those expressions not withstanding.

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I don't believe Eph is talking about specific individual election, but about the whoever who receives.

Kenny'sID said:

Or in short, predestination is ridiculous, and would make us a bunch of no free will robots... don't you believe it.

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Actually, I don't think anybody does believe that, but you're more than welcome to argue against a nonexistent position.

Radagast said:

That page is basic philosophy on the topic. You don't need to read it, but if you don't, then you can't seriously tell me I'm wrong.

Good example. I had compatibilist free will -- I painted the lion because I wanted to paint the lion (nobody stopped me from painting the fox).

But I didn't have libertarian free will -- if you genuinely knew that I would paint the lion, then you could take me back in a time machine over and over again, and I'd paint the lion every time. I could not have chosen to paint the fox (because, of course, I would never have wanted to paint the fox).

See, there are two completely different kinds of "free will," and it's important to know which one you're talking about. Both foreknowledge and predestination only work with compatibilist free will.

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I have heard it before "you can do what you will, but you can't will whatever you like". How do you know? I believe we can will and choose whatever we want or not want among all our options. I believe if we went back in the time machine, you would some time choose lion and sometimes fox. Of course each time I would know your choice.

You believe our choice is dependent on what God knows. It's the other way around, what God knows is dependent on our choice.

StillGods said:

we dont even know if we ourselves are elect
until we die.
very unsettling and there's nothing we can do about it because we have no choice

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Whosoever believeth in Jesus Christ will be saved.

zoidar said:

I don't believe Eph is talking about specific individual election, but about the whoever who receives.

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I don't think God is working from a list of names of those who will be saved and those who will not. I think God knows the saved from the lost and that's enough for me. I just think characterizing predestination as pagan fate is a mistake, the two concepts have nothing to do with one another. I just think it's important to realize, God's plans and purposes 'in Christ' have not changed since before the foundation of the world, all who will be saved will be the righteousness of God in Christ, there was never a plan b.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Pethesedzao said:

Whosoever believeth in Jesus Christ will be saved.

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Yes, that's it, that is the message of the gospel. We do well to emphasis that point. Paul always did:

It's not complicated, a child could understand.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Radagast said:

Justification by faith alone does not rule out the various Biblical requirements to do stuff.

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So if we live just by faith with out doing any of that stuff, our faith is nullified?