predestined

SayaOtonashi said:

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

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If any of you doubt predestination then read what Paul wrote to the Romans.

Oldmantook said:

Yup. Such is the Calvinistic mindset.

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Neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian be

Cis.jd said:

No it doesn't. Why do things to make us perfect as God when we live by faith alone? That is undermining to what Christ did on the cross because what is the point of being perfect as God when all we need to do is accept him?

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Have you been baptized with the Spirit?

Jonaitis said:

Well, this sounds like Deism, that there is a God out there who just watches and does not intervene in the affairs of the world.

I think Isaiah differs on that:

"I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose'..." (Isaiah 46:10).

And we read in Job:

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2)

Can we thwart the plans and purposes of God?



I don't understand this question. We live our lives, but at the same time it was predestined to occur.

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Paul's letter to the Romans

Cis.jd said:

No it doesn't. Why do things to make us perfect as God when we live by faith alone? That is undermining to what Christ did on the cross because what is the point of being perfect as God when all we need to do is accept him?

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I didn't quote that statement in the sense of "works". We walk by faith and not by works. There are instances in scripture where we are told to be as God is, yet the same word of God shows us we can't accomplish those things in ourselves. Therefore, we need a savior who fulfilled those things and His righteousness is imputed on us.
The whole point of accepting God as you state is so we are one with Him-we don't become Him, we are Justified by Him!

This one always makes me giggle.

Dear beloved, God has plans for each of us. Saved and unsaved. And we can know for certain if we are saved, as Christ lives, we too shall live.

I answer your question with a question.

Did God give Adam and Eve a choice concerning the forbidden fruit?

Was God standing by waiting for the moment to scold and stop the two from eating it?

Beyond that, why would God ask, “where are you?” to them as they hid, as if he wasn’t sure where they were?

If we are made in God’s image, who obviously chose to create us, instead of not, then we can assume we have both a choice and a predestination.

Also, consider before responding, that you will be making a choice to reply to none, some, or all of the questions. My presenting of choices insinuates a choice must be made. And I will need to know how to respond to your response with love and kindness. But as I’ve left my mark on this thread, I am allowing for responses therefore I know I’ll be seeing this thread again.

In the same way, in a deeper and more meaningful way, in an eternal way, God has gives us breath in our lungs, a life with which we must choose to devote to God, or ourselves. He makes his mark on us and expects to watch over us until we can finally be with Him.

“If he knows what we will choose, then it’s not really a choice”, you may say.

With each situation you face, your being shaped, and it’s not up to the creation to insist on his own way but to trust that the creator will make us into something pleasing to Him.

Does God know who will trust in him? Yes. Jesus Christ came that all who believe on the Son will have salvation.
Does that make it any less of a choice? No. Because God draws near to those who draw nearer to him.
Why? This option for salvation is given, and it’s not enough that you simply accept one, but you must also deny all the rest.

Repentance is not only turning to God, but turning away from everything that is contrary.

In conclusion, to propose we have no choice because God knows all things, is to say that God himself is autonomous. In which case, we look at the cross, and ask ourselves, “was there another way?” And I’m sure you’ll see that without His willful submission to the death of the cross, you and I are left with no other choice but to pay for our own sins with eternal death.

The person of Jesus Christ is the reason we were given any choice at all, for He was slain before the foundation of the world.

Oldmantook said:

Yup. Such is the Calvinistic mindset.

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No that's not the Calvinistic mindset. God has predestined the elect to be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29-30).

Philipians 2:13 "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure"
The will of God's elect is His (the Father's) doing. The choices we make are not the controller of our destiny. God is! Whereas we reap what we sow, God lets the fruit of what we reap show for itself.

Oldmantook said:

Yup. Such is the Calvinistic mindset.

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No, that is the Catholic model.

Because of "foreknowledge and predestination, mankind is nothing more than "robots" who cannot act any different than what God foreknows and "predestinates" them to do.

I wish I could count the number of times I have been told this by Catholics, well meaning Catholics, and Orthodox as well.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Cis.jd said:

oh.. I don't understand. I can't just have faith and sit/be quite/go about my business, i have to do stuff?

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Justification by faith alone does not rule out the various Biblical requirements to do stuff.

Loyce KG said:

No that's not the Calvinistic mindset. God has predestined the elect to be conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:29-30).

Philipians 2:13 "For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure"
The will of God's elect is His (the Father's) doing. The choices we make are not the controller of our destiny. God is! Whereas we reap what we sow, God let's the fruit of what we reap show for itself.

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The Calvinist mindset is that God alone predestines whom he elects. He chooses to elect some and not elect others. If you're not of the elect - tough luck.

Oldmantook said:

The Calvinist mindset is that God alone predestines whom he elects. He chooses to elect some and not elect others. If you're not of the elect - tough luck.

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The first statememt is correct. God elects for Himself a people, just like He did with the Israelites.

"If you're not the elect tough luck"-what's that supposed to mean?
God's grace has saved us-we don't count ourselves lucky. That's a place of pride. We are humbled by His mercy and grace on us fallen creatures who deserve hell!

I wonder if you're questioning God's sovereignty and His will to do what He pleases? He is King and Maker of all. Romans 11:33-36

DeaconDean said:

No, that is the Catholic model.

Because of "foreknowledge and predestination, mankind is nothing more than "robots" who cannot act any different than what God foreknows and "predestinates" them to do.

I wish I could count the number of times I have been told this by Catholics, well meaning Catholics, and Orthodox as well.

God Bless

Till all are one.

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The Reformed model has nothing to do with what choices man makes since man is reprobate. It is God alone who sovereignly chooses whom to elect to salvation.

Loyce KG said:

The first statememt is correct. God elects for Himself a people, just like He did with the Israelites.

"If you're not the elect tough luck"-what's that supposed to mean?
God's grace has saved us-we don't count ourselves lucky. That's a place of pride. We are humbled by His mercy and grace on us fallen creatures who deserve hell!

I wonder if you're questioning God's sovereignty and His will to do what He pleases? He is King and Maker of all. Romans 11:33-36

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It means precisely what it mean. Not that I believe in luck but tough luck because if you're not of the elect = too bad for you.

Pethesedzao said:

Paul's letter to the Romans

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God cannot and will not go against His word.

Pethesedzao said:

Neither a Calvinist nor an Arminian be

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Dozens of times I've seen people on CF describe their "third alternative." And that "third alternative" has always been... Arminianism (or its Catholic equivalent).

even the people who think they're saved can't know for sure if they're elect or not.

you can think you are but God may not have predestined you so youre not so even if you go to church and think you're doing all the right things and you think you believe all the right things it doesn't mean you're one of the elect. there's no guarantee you're elect until you die and find out if God chose you or not.

its difficult not to know for sure.

but at least dont have to evangelize, if people are meant to be elect they will be regardless.
but some won't be even if they would like to be because they are not destined to be so they can't.

unsettling not knowing if you are one of the elect or not.

Pethesedzao said:

If any of you doubt predestination then read what Paul wrote to the Romans.

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That's a great idea, because Romans proves that predestination is not about being predestined to surrender to God.
Predestination is about what happens to those who have already surrendered to God, and already possess new life.

Romans8v28And we know that God works together all things for good to those loving God, to those being called according to His purpose,
So, this passage is solely about those who love God, not about the unregenerates.

29because those whom He foreknew,
Foreknew who would freely surrender to his love without coercion.

He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
Predestined those he foreknew would surrender. Not predestined or preprogrammed to surrender.

for Him to be firstborn among many brothers.
Jesus, brother to those who chose surrender.

30And those whom He predestined, these also He called; and whom He called, these also He justified; and whom He justified, these also He glorified.
So those God foreknew would surrender to Him, He predestined them alone, He called them alone, He justified them alone, He glorified them alone.
God's plans are all based on those he foreknew would humble themselves before him.
In no place does scripture state that God predestines or forces any man to surrender against his freewill.

Neogaia777 said:

If someone knows what your gonna choose before you choose it, how can you ever really make a choice...?

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That is some bizarre and immature logic!

I knew 90% of the time, the choices my children would make, even when I surreptitiously tried to change things.
Did knowing of my children's preferences control their freewill choices? Hardly, especially as many times the decisions were completely against what I wanted.

ie. Foreknowledge of decision does not mean control of decision.

Neither does God's foreknowledge of man's decisions mean God's control of such decisions.

redleghunter said:

We are all condemned. God in His rich Mercy and Grace calls us.

We don’t know who is elect.

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we dont even know if we ourselves are elect
until we die.
very unsettling and there's nothing we can do about it because we have no choice

SayaOtonashi said:

Since God knows all does this mean we can't change our fates? That those who are saved are all saved and those who are damned can't change their fates?

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Lot seemed to negotiate with God re: the number of people needed with sodom and gomorrah so maybe we have a say and Bible says God says 'come reason with me' so I think God wants to hear what we have to say.